Early Retirement Extreme Forums

theanimal wrote:I don't think his use of social capital should be seen as cheating.

I agree, although I do think some forms of social capital could be seen as cheating, because in violation of the spirit of SWR or the notion of linkage between spending and energy burn. For instance, if you couch-surf on what would be an otherwise unoccupied couch and all parties are content with the exchange then not a "cheat", but if you take a 20 minute long "free" hot shower then that is kind of a "cheat" on money/energy link. If you also project your shelter expenses out into the future as $0 and include in SWR calculation then that may be a "cheat" unless you have good reason to believe that availability of your next couch surf is always going to be less than 24 hours away or you have at least a couple other options for shelter that would also be $0. I think Rob has his extremely low shelter expense pretty well nailed, because he is also fit/skilled enough to minimalist rough camp when not tiny housing.

I agree that his leveraging of social capital shouldn't be seen as cheating. It does make what he's doing a bit different than what we're doing though.

I realized that my early retirement strategy is stronger than I previously thought, because if I ever get tired of working and want to be totally lazy I could do something like what Rob did in San Diego.

7Wannabe5 wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:12 pm

For instance, if you couch-surf on what would be an otherwise unoccupied couch and all parties are content with the exchange then not a "cheat", but if you take a 20 minute long "free" hot shower then that is kind of a "cheat" on money/energy link. If you also project your shelter expenses out into the future as $0 and include in SWR calculation then that may be a "cheat" unless you have good reason to believe that availability of your next couch surf is always going to be less than 24 hours away or you have at least a couple other options for shelter that would also be $0.

Shout out to my 24 yr old self.

7Wannabe5 wrote: ↑

Wed Dec 04, 2019 4:12 pm

I think Rob has his extremely low shelter expense pretty well nailed, because he is also fit/skilled enough to minimalist rough camp when not tiny housing.

#Goalz

Frita wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 03, 2019 6:49 pm

@Lemur
I wasn’t saying that you equate being insured with health; rather, that seems to be a shift in the US. Depending on the state and one’s philosophy, self-insurance can be cost-effective. Like Rob, we no longer participate in the health insurance business.

Added for clarification: We do have auto, house, and umbrella insurance. I am not saying that I recommend other people drop their health insurance unless after careful consideration, they decide that is what’s best.

Of course. Why so defensive on my part...I was in some odd mood the other day after reading health insurance horror stories most of the morning lol.

What Rob is doing in regards to health insurance, of course I'm skeptical but then again I haven't done a deep dive yet into alternative strategies. All I've known is that my health insurance is tied to my employer and with all the horror stories I've read, my risk aversion is high. Add a child into the mix and my stance has become very resistant to the idea of self-insurance. I have reading to do in this area. OTOH...my hopes is that this system will change drastically - Has to happen through political action. I'm sure there are threads here on ERE that discuss the state of US health insurance; I shall poke around that.

I’ve decided that buying a 50x50 tiny house and convincing a friend to let me live on their property for chore help is as good a retirement plan as any.

50 x 50 tiny house?

@Lemur
Health insurance is on my mind too. It seems unsustainable. Most people either are roped into working for insurance or are making next-to-nothing for ACA.

Even when we had employer-provided insurance, we racked up enormous bills for advanced infertility treatment and caring for my daughter (after our insurance ran out but before we could get her on Medicaid). When we tried to switch to my school district’s self-insured plan, they did everything possible to make returning to work impossible. (They also did this when my teaching buddy was diagnosed with stage 4 ovarian cancer. She was forced out. Such a shame...). We found having employee-sponsored insurance helps. Many people end up filing bankruptcy from situations like ours. We paid ours off instead, learned some skills and priorities, and probably lessened our fear of risk.

My spouse was okay with this plan from the get-go; however, it has been a gradual process for me. If I would have stayed at my part-time teaching job, I could have got high-deductible family employer-sponsored insurance by forfeiting 100% of my salary, paying another $300/month out-of-pocket, and tolerating as the BS. Crazy! If I found something decent (enjoyable culture and meaningful work) with affordable family insurance (max of $500/month), I would get it. (Even with co-pays and deductible, if used, that would run $1500/month.)

Although Rob is definitely several Wheaton levels beyond me, I do appreciate seeing the progression in his timeline: https://robgreenfield.tv/timeline/

It goes to show that dramatic mindset shifts usually don't happen overnight and Wheaton development is a gradual thing. I can't see myself living in an off-grid tiny house in someone's back yard and growing/foraging all my food (too many levels ahead of me), but I could see myself taking some initial steps like starting a compost pile or working to reduce the amount of trash I create.

@white belt:

Very interesting. I am intrigued by his series of vows to lockstep lower his spending, earning and assets.

I am nowhere near his Wheaton level, but my recent attempts to keep my spending/consumption low while simultaneously raising my earnings/production makes me think he is on to something with this stance.

Also, I have noted that my Uber-wealthy friend is exhibiting less ability to switch gears in alignment with Covid reality than me, because still locked into previous success/safety metrics. Obviously,anybody who, like Rob, has the health, skills and resilience to, for instance, solo camp in a National Forest during this pandemic, is more likely to survive and less likely to be scrambling to double down towards breaking even on losses or securing rigid boundaries or stock piles constructed well beyond the natural boundary of skin sac.

It’s kind of like the average 21st century middle-class American is like the inheritor of Downton Abbey in decline. How can we survive without an under-butler? !How can we survive without toilet paper?! Even my BF who is survivalist enough to construct a water still ( why I chose him as survival mate ), is appalled by my attempt to use mason jar full of water as rough bidet and is looking forward to “eating out every night!” once the crisis has passed.

This guy is an inspiration

If you aren't familiar with Greenfield, he did a 10min summary video on Exploring Alternatives this week.

Very cool. I wish I was brave enough to live like Greenfield.

Having to depend on others, let alone to the extent he does, really scares me. Have not had good exp with getting help when I needed it in meatspace, even when I tried to be helpful to others. But, work in progress. Current theory is I probably come across intense or neurotic because when I ask for help, I don't believe I deserve it and will be given it, and I don't believe it doesn't make me less-than to need it. Thank fuck there's no accessible quality therapy in my country or it'll probably soak up all my retirement stash

Very inspiring! Thanks, Jenny. I don't have the guts to live like him either, at least not yet.

I’m not afraid of depending on others. I’m afraid of getting attacked by others. Inclusive of dogs and bears. Simple physical cowardice.

i haven’t wanted to say anything negative about this guy’s practices, but in the spirit of the current protests etc—

here in america only a white person of a certain background would think this is a desirable lifestyle.

i mean—a person of color doing the same thing would be branded as an unemployed transient, possibly mentally ill, and a burden on the public coffers, facing high risk for incarceration or violence if caught “foraging” or lingering in public spaces.

i mean, they shoot you for being a jogger; imagine what picking berries could get you.

as for insurance: if you’re poor enough you’re eligible for medicaid expansion, but your state might make you dance endlessly for it and then turn it off randomly.

nevertheless: if you’re a trustafarian, poverty is your oyster. but if you’re not, “society” is out to get you.

oooh excellent point, hadn't thought about it, but there's a ton of white privilege here. anyone we here on the balkans could code as roma would suffer exactly the same prejudice

+1 to 7W5’s fear of wild animal attacks
When I was 10 years old, I was bitten by an early retired police dog when walking to get my allergy shot at the doctor. It got me in the back upper thigh and wouldn’t let go, ruining my favorite pair of bellbottomed hip huggers in the process. (I still have the scar. When I am tan and wearing a swimsuit, it’s a great story starter.) That damn German Shepard wouldn’t let go. Ultimately, they shot it. I had a physical reaction to dogs for a good 30 years. Now I feel a bit of fear quickly calmed by remembering why I am reacting. I still flinch and have an adrenaline surge with gunshot.

As a kid, I remember people feeding the bears at Yellowstone. Fast forward to watching “Grizzly Man,” a bear attack would not be my preferred way to head out.

@ertyu
Some CBT practitioners have you living with Rob Greenfield as part of therapy to challenge your beliefs. It might be more enjoyable than crashing with your parents.

Frita wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:39 pm

@ertyu
Some CBT practitioners have you living with Rob Greenfield as part of therapy to challenge your beliefs. It might be more enjoyable than crashing with your parents.

probably a thread derail, but this would not work. i believe that people would help -him-, but not that they would help -me-. If I am with him, I would think that they were helping me for his sake and would not help me if he was not there. Do agree it would be better than being with parents. Listening to father verbally abuse mother through the door has not sparked joy :/

ertyu wrote: ↑

Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:37 pm

oooh excellent point, hadn't thought about it, but there's a ton of white privilege here. anyone we here on the balkans could code as roma would suffer exactly the same prejudice

yup

and notice the telegenic quality of his teeth

@alphaville- I don't think that's true at all. What's admirable is his level of skill. Jacob is able to live the lifestyle of a middle class person at a fraction of a cost due to the high skill and web of goals framework. Rob takes it to a whole nother level with minimal possessions and including/working with others. Using social capital while not greedily taking from anyone, either those individuals he surrounds himself with or the land itself. The example you are curating is describing people who do no such thing and have no such skill. There are plenty of representative examples among men, women, black, white, and brown. It's really not a legitimate comparison and not a fair critique of Rob.

ETA: This also ignores the plentiful examples of people abroad discussed here on these very forums who do not have the same physical characteristics as Rob. One that immediately comes to mind is the Asian guy (I think from Thailand?) who has a Ted talk about how life is easy and how happy he is living in his thatched hut and living very simply.