Reaching Kegan Level 4

What skills to learn, what tools to get
daylen
Posts: 1700
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:17 am

Re: Reaching Kegan Level 4

Post by daylen »

Level 1: Fresh born babies.. until they start responding or displaying basic emotions?
Level 2: Repeat offenders of violent crimes in absence of a "gang". Reality is a zero-sum game between them and everything else.
Level 3: Gang members (perhaps not leaders). Sport fanatics that structure their lives around the performance of their "team". The "Joneses" of the neighborhood that follow all the latest trends. Most Teenagers and young adults.
Level 4: An academic that explicitly states everyone should view life through their particular lens of understanding (I am hesitant to name any because you can never really know for sure if they are using a meta-narrative for a particular context)... cough Sam cough Harris.
Level 5: Not sure asides from Bateson.

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 12979
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 73
Contact:

Re: Reaching Kegan Level 4

Post by jacob »

I once made the following mapping to well-known people in the WH administration based on their public behavior. As you can tell from the names, this was some time ago, so maybe it needs to be updated: Trump=2, Kelly=3, Ryan=4, and Bannon=5.

Adding some more, Pence=3, Sanders=3, and Conway=4. And from the Democrat side, Hillary=4, Obama=4, Biden=3, AOC=3, and Pelosi=5.

In general, most politicians (especially from competitive realms) need to be[come] a 4 to succeed knowing the different things to say to different constituencies to make a career out of it. If you only have one constituency or your constituency is locked in, it's a lot easier.

(Politics = Potentially inflammatory, so lets just leave it at that. Maybe PM me if you think I'm really wrong and I'll update it here. I fear using politicians could derail this very interesting thread, but OTOH, everyone is at least somewhat familiar with them and they're somewhat contemporary.)

anesde
Posts: 189
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:32 am

Re: Reaching Kegan Level 4

Post by anesde »

I love the irony inherent in Jacob’s footnote. Discussing Keagan levels and the (apparent) desire to “rise up the ladder”, yet the fear of derailment when applied to politics persists.

Perhaps one’s desire to derail is the best indication of one’s Kegan level?

daylen
Posts: 1700
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:17 am

Re: Reaching Kegan Level 4

Post by daylen »

Seems like the desire is more implicit in Kegan4 thinking; the process of bringing a perceptive into the light necessarily pushes others away. It is much easier to deconstruct or overshadow an argument than it is to make it better (reconstruction). Kegan5 is often trying to balance this effect with idea that deconstruction precedes innovation. For a forest to shelter new life, it must first be burned, but often the new life is functionally equivalent. One question that seems to pop up is something like.. what should be considered as sacred? .. and when should apparently more functional solutions replace the sacred? The answer seems to require contextualization as Jenny mentioned.
Last edited by daylen on Mon May 27, 2019 9:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

Jason

Re: Reaching Kegan Level 4

Post by Jason »

Can one have a Kegan Level 5 understanding that they are well below a Kegan Level 5? Because my certainty that I don't understand of any this shit is through the roof.

daylen
Posts: 1700
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:17 am

Re: Reaching Kegan Level 4

Post by daylen »

@Jason Sure, you could find a paradox in any model that has been presented. Just as any theory or literary work can be "debunked". The utility of such models is dependent on how the user links it to their "bottom-line".

A mathematical or physical theory from one angle is just a way of manipulating symbols. It is only "objective" in the sense that anyone who understands the symbols and how they link to experiments will have gained a confidence in the theory. When the theory predicts a particular outcome they have not tested, they will take it seriously. In some sense, it is a way of directing attention.

daylen
Posts: 1700
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:17 am

Re: Reaching Kegan Level 4

Post by daylen »

Going along with the perception that this is a tool to be used only in particular ways.. when and how should it be used?

It could be used as a way to put people in boxes, and each box could be associated to different conditions of interaction. Perhaps that could help an individual manage their social life, or perhaps it could backfire and lead to resentment. People typically push back against confinement.

It could be used as a map to navigate some territory. The question then concerns the territorial boundaries. Perhaps it could serve as a model for generating arguments that combat overconfidence.(*)

In opposition to some other ranking system like IQ, this can actually be changed [significantly] with time. To what extent should it be treated like a trophy for a sport competition or spelling bee? On the other hand, the Kegan scale seems to correspond to a transferable skill.

Maybe it could serve as a way to defend against overconfident Kegan4 behavior that attempts to force a partial perspective onto others. Ironically, trying to help people with a Kegan4 meta-narrative can amplify polarization. Some people (namely young Kegan3's) are highly susceptible to propaganda and will obey whatever meta-narrative is being thrown at them. Many other people become more confident with their own system by attending to flaws in another system they dislike (especially if that system is viral like new atheism).

For anyone that is mathematically inclined, I invite them to study the incompleteness theorems(**). Consider that millions of people can agree on something as abstract and predictive as the general theory of relativity which is built on a few basic assumptions about counting... then one day someone makes a [very] convincing argument to this population that the same assumptions leading to computer and satellite technologies [and generally the way our lives are structured today] are actually incomplete (or potentially inconsistent). One of the most trusted ways of making sense of anything is probably incomplete, and it can never prove its own consistency. It is not too far-fetched to then believe that any universal system for making sense of reality is either not accounting for something or does not make sense (two or more statements generated with the theory cannot all be true).

(*) This is interesting to me, because I often present myself as being confident when most of the time my thought process is flooded with self-doubt. Sometimes I tell myself that being direct and assertive when writing decreases "fluff", but signaling self-doubt can actually increase the readers trust. Not sure if I will ever figure this out.

(**) A somewhat more accessible case study is the limitations of Euclidean geometry.

mathiverse
Posts: 119
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:40 pm

Re: Reaching Kegan Level 4

Post by mathiverse »

.
Last edited by mathiverse on Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 6831
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Reaching Kegan Level 4

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

mathiverse wrote:How did you know you were Kegan 4 (or 5) for those who feel they are?
When the warp of the world consistently transcends the weft that was your narrative.

User avatar
jennypenny
Posts: 6618
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:20 pm
Location: Stepford USA

Re: Reaching Kegan Level 4

Post by jennypenny »

new interview with Kegan

He summarizes his work including the different stages for those who are looking for an overview from Kegan himself.

J_
Posts: 735
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:12 pm
Location: Netherlands/Austria

Re: Reaching Kegan Level 4

Post by J_ »

@Jennypenny: Thanks . Kegan expresses himself so insightful that it helped me to understand his practical findings much better. And at the end of this talk he gives a glimp of how it would be possible to get a better human reaction to how the climatic crisis can be steared to some more sustainable direction.

Clarice
Posts: 271
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:45 pm
Location: California

Re: Reaching Kegan Level 4

Post by Clarice »

@jennypenny:
Thank you very much for the link! Enlightening... :) Now I am late to work. :evil:

subgard
Posts: 107
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:53 pm

Re: Reaching Kegan Level 4

Post by subgard »

It's a looped continuum. K6 is the same as K0.

AnalyticalEngine
Posts: 403
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2018 11:57 am

Re: Reaching Kegan Level 4

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

Does anyone have any insight on encouraging someone who is level 3 to develop to level 4?

wolf
Posts: 1088
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2017 5:09 pm
Location: Germany

Re: Reaching Kegan Level 4

Post by wolf »

Trigger his/her intrinsic motivation.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 6831
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Reaching Kegan Level 4

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I think each level up harkens back to previous level transcended. So, if level 2 is subjective self-interest then level 3 calls for objective self-interest. IOW, "put on your own oxygen mask first" would be a Level 3 towards 4 encouragement. The "first" is what stamps this expression as not to be interpreted as advice to regress to Level 2.

I found what Kegan had to say in the video about moral relativity and rejection of any system of hierarchy interesting. It seems to me this has something to do with the ability to recognize other moral systems as different yet equally complex. For instance, a poorly behaved 9 year old child I was supervising recently, responded to my remark "You know what you are supposed to do when another child hits you." with "Yeah, I am supposed to tell a teacher, but my parents told me that I should hit back if somebody hits me, and I am going to do what my parents told me." There are 9 year old children who are capable of reasoning forward towards value of education or other benefits received if willing to offer adults other than parents trust and respect, but they are few and far between. "An eye for an eye..." is generally a pretty easy sell at the third grade level.

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 12979
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 73
Contact:

Re: Reaching Kegan Level 4

Post by jacob »

I would approach it the way I approach moral growth. Always challenge the person at exactly +1 level of their current one. Interestingly Paul Wheaton figured out the same with permaculture which led to the development of Wheaton levels---I didn't really figure it out for ERE until the past several years. Anyway, this means that if you're dealing with a perp or a 6 year old who mainly thinks in morals in terms what they can get away with (Kohlberg2), then lectures about democracy (Kolhberg5) is not going to work. What you want to engage them on is a concern for being nice to other people (Kohlberg3). After that you can talk about the importance of all of us following the rules (Kohlberg4) leading to democracy and how we agree on the rules (Kohlberg5)---and ultimately whether some rules are special (Kohlberg6).

If you want a specific motivating factor then career development is a good one. The difference between 3 and 4 is material.

Clarice
Posts: 271
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:45 pm
Location: California

Re: Reaching Kegan Level 4

Post by Clarice »

Kegan 3, Kegan 4, and Kegan 5 walked into a bar... :lol: What do you observe? IOW, what everyday examples of behaviors across different contexts come to your mind when you think of Kegan 3, Kegan 4. and Kegan 5? :?: :geek: :ugeek: :idea: :D

Loner
Posts: 181
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:26 pm

Re: Reaching Kegan Level 4

Post by Loner »

Just finished David Frayne's Refusal of Work [recommended] after Ego (I think) posted something about it some time ago. The author interviews a few people who end up deciding to stop working, or work part time, etc., and some of those stories seemed to me to illustrate quite well and colourfully what I think is a Kegan shift (3->4) in a somewhat ERE-like context.

Here's some interesting bits:
Adam said he liked to gently provoke people into clarifying their reasons for working, but identified this as an uncomfortable or taboo area of conversation:
[People] give you quite a flippant answer, which is their way of saying ‘oh, don’t ask me that’. They’re quite happy to talk about other things and engage in small talk, but no one really wants to talk about these deep issues.

In each case, the interviewees expressed a strong desire to live with intention, often referring to some earlier period in their lives that had been conducted in a less-than-lucid state of consciousness, without them being in the driving seat. Within this context, the breakpoint represents the welcome moment at which they began to question the work role.

What the breakpoint more humbly represents is the moment at which people began to reflect more clearly on the nature of cognitive power, and on their own powers of self- direction within the constraints of the society around them. The need to be employed was no longer accepted as a natural law or feature of human nature, but instead represented an object ripe for critical attention. With high spirits and a note of pride, people described a process of reflection on their stock notions and habits, a shedding of their roles, and a rediscovery of their lives as open to possibilities.

What was it exactly that afforded the people I met this degree of critical distance from a previously naturalised state of affairs? The breakpoint represents the moment at which reification was punctured, with people’s lives taking on a renewed feeling of malleability. But when and why do people cease to accept their social roles as natural and given? In spite of the normalising functions of socialisation, social discipline and ideology, social
struggles show us that the integration of individuals into the social order is never a finished process. But if there is always an element of the self that refuses integration, then what causes this element to wake up and be heard?

The causes of a breakpoint are difficult to pin down. Critical reflection might be prompted in the most unpredictable of situations: by the vague sense of desolation that descends in a traffic jam or a crowded shopping mall; by the resentment that surfaces in a pointless team meeting; by the meditative quality of mind which can follow a trip into nature or a drive down an open road. The interviewee Eleanor talked in almost mystical terms about a kind of transcendence or flash of insight: what Cohen and Taylor, writing on the theme of escape, call a ‘momentary slip through the fabric’ (Cohen and Taylor, 1992). The person is briefly overwhelmed by some vague and indescribable force or spirit which leads him or her into a process of re-evaluation. Eleanor Berger and Pullberg speculate that de-reification may occur in ‘times of trouble’, which rattle the world down to its foundations and allow it to be rebuilt anew

Whilst she said repeatedly that she was happy with her daily routine, I asked her to think about whether there were things she missed about work, and it was at this point that she raised the issue of social recognition. Lucy became visibly upset:
David: If I were to push you, out of the things you said you miss about work, which was the most important?
Lucy: Um [long pause] [sigh]. I suppose the thing I miss most is not feeling like I’m letting people down. Maybe that’s because, I don’t know, I just feel like I’m letting Matthew’s parents down and my parents down. I suppose I wouldn’t say – I don’t know, does this make sense?
David: Yes. So do you worry about that then?
Lucy: I worry every day [long pause], all the time [sigh]. I just – I feel like I should get a job so that I don’t feel like I’m letting everybody else down, but I just [sigh] – I don’t know if I can do that.

One of Lucy’s main ambitions was to have lots of children. She told a story about how her mother – a nurse – had concealed Lucy’s non-work ambitions from colleagues at a Christmas party, believing that Lucy’s maternal goals were too homely or old-fashioned. Lucy’s lack of work-centred ambitions seemed to embarrass her mother.

ertyu
Posts: 1511
Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:31 am

Re: Reaching Kegan Level 4

Post by ertyu »

jacob wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 2:34 pm
It would ... but what would that look and feel like? Such a person would have instant solutions to all diplomatic issues in the world not only in terms of identifying the issues but also in solving them. It's easy enough to apply the Hegelian constructor to see what it looks like in theory but it's hard to grok it in practice. It's similar to how a mathematician can easily imagine what things look like in 3D but would be hard pressed to imagine/intuit anything but the simplest objects (lines, planes, spheres, and cubes) in 4D and beyond thus having to resort to technical manipulations.
Mycroft Holmes. You have just identified Mycroft Holmes

@Loner, I too just finished the book and loved chapters 5 and 6, the ones most focused on people's experiences with refusing work. Many similarities to ERE.

Post Reply