Reaching Kegan Level 4

[jacob]

If more advanced levels are more encompassing of earlier levels, I wonder if this is why people talk about ego death experiencing being useful to personal or spiritual development. In the same vein of K4 INTJs forgetting what K3 was like, pretty much everyone has forgotten what K1 was like. Thus reexperincing it via altered conscious states like drugs/advanced meditation/dissociation is remembering what was once forgotten and can lead to further insights on the nature of what/who one is.

I'm wondering too.

First, it seems fairly common in poststructuralist writing to declare the "death" of something as soon as anyone has built some bigger theory that subsumes previous understanding. God is dead. The ego is dead. The author is dead. (Maybe this is me declaring the death of the saying that "something is dead".) Constructs all the way down (not that this can't lead to useful insight). What death means here is that whatever died has become a script in a bigger theory---it has lost its random/live generator function by becoming explainable and thus predictable. An NPC of the universe so to speak. Not all that interesting.

What concerns me (greatly) is that I (being on top of Mt Stupid in this regard) can't distinguish between those who talk-about [whatever died] and those who actually experienced [whatever died]. So I do not know whether psychedelics or meditation techniques actually "kill" the ego temporarily or whether they just debilitate you and collapse [the ego] to reveal whatever underlying structures, you're bringing to the table anyway. However, seeing the underlying layers w/o the filter may reveal deeper aspects (subroutines) of the ego. I'm just not sure it will reveal reality (the solution) as much as it will cause one to ask questions.

Crude analogy would be how the COVID lockdown and the inability to shop caused WL5s to question consumerism and comparative advantage in terms of their life-strategy or identity.

Now WRT the questions, it's absolutely crucial that those are the right questions asked and not the wrong ones lest one venture into a hole of stupid. And this is why I'm not sure "tricks" are advisable. (The argument for this comes from a position of assuming that the ego is a complex entity and thus changes should follow the rule of small reversible changes only.)

PS: For a shallower (IMHO) but more actionable perspective, consider eneagrams for stress-functioning. That's the only framework I know that treats functioning explicitly. Most here are Fives, so https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/type-5/ but there are 8 more.
Functionality can range multiple degrees within a day. It's practically useful to recognize where you're at at any given moment. It's a nice map.

[7Wannabe5]

Maybe you have to allow yourself to experience the vices of all the other types?

I’m definitely not Level 5, but I think purposefully applying stress such as adventure travel, mushrooms, extreme sport, trip-out level sex, spiritual fasting, on a very high functioning day can at least summon up Level 5 like perspectives to integrate into Level 4 narrative.

[jacob]

@7wb5 - Transgression is/as the way?

[7Wannabe5]

Maybe just enough for empathy? I mean a genius level diplomat isn’t going to be like Willy Wonka sending everybody but sweet Charlie down the tubes.

[AnalyticalEngine]

I've been thinking more about Kegan1 vs Kegan5 and how to compare dissociation in the clinical sense to Kegan5. There seems to be some overlap in my understanding of Kegan1, Kegan5, and dissociation.

So first, considering symptoms of dissociation. Dissociation seems to be an altered state of consciousness where the sense of self or the ego are either entirely missing, weakened, or placed outside of one's body. To consider what this means, I've decided to reference the Dissociative Experiences Scale: http://traumadissociation.com/des

There are some parts of this scale that strike me as being possible Kegan5-type experiences because Kegan5 is about viewing identity as an object, not something one is/subjected to (Ie, I have a me(s), not I am a me(s) is the essence of K4 vs K5).

So from the dissociative experiences scale:

18. Some people find that they become so involved in a fantasy or daydream that it feels as though it were really happening to them.

22. Some people find that in one situation they may act so differently compared with another situation that they feel almost as if they were two different people.

23. Some people sometimes find that in certain situations they are ableto do things with amazing ease and spontaneity that would usually be difficult for them (for example, sports, work, social situations, etc.).

27. Some people sometimes find that they hear voices inside their head that tell them to do things or comment on things that they are doing.

All of these things are an awareness that one has a 'me', not that one is a 'me.'

Now some of these experiences also seem Kegan1. (Ie, "I am perception/sensation" vs "I have perception/sensation")

7. Some people sometimes have the experience of feeling as though they are standing next to themselves or watching themselves do something and they actually see themselves as if they were looking at another person.

10. Some people have the experience of being accused of lying when they do not think that they have lied.

17. Some people find that when they are watching television or a movie they become so absorbed in the story that they are unaware of other events happening around them.

One theme that both dissociation, Kegan1, and dementia seem to share is that of memory loss. One does not remember being a small child, dissociation causes one to be unable to form memories of experiences, and dementia includes slowly forgetting things.

[AnalyticalEngine]

it seems fairly common in poststructuralist writing to declare the "death" of something as soon as anyone has built some bigger theory that subsumes previous understanding. God is dead. The ego is dead. The author is dead.

My understanding of poststructuralism is that declaring "x is dead" is more about how x has been removed out of popular discourse/narrative/social context more so than it being absorbed into another theory. For example, "god is dead" is less about the epistemic claims of religion being explained away by science and more about the fact society now has to grapple with the collapse in popular narrative that gave most people context and meaning in their lives. That is to say, in the context of this thread, people who are Kegan3 need social proof for their beliefs. Most people are Kegan3. So when the social proof of god can no longer exist, people who relied on that as the meaning and context in their life are thrown into crisis.

Fredric Jameson, while not officially a poststructualist, writes a lot about this in his critiques of postmodernism as a kind of "cultural schizophrenia," where the old modern or pre-modern narratives have fallen apart and the individual (whom I'm assuming is Kegan3) is left with a constantly shifting consumer identity and is utterly unable to place themselves in the broader context of history or find any meaning in the social narrative of their life.

[Qazwer]

‘God is dead’ per my limited understanding relates to the concept that without Christian morality then the whole of morality has lost its base. There are no clear absolutes or rules to decide things on.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/nietzsche/

This ties in with the use of scales in this forum. In academic psychology, the epistemology is clear based on psychometrics. We can talk about whether Kegan levels are valid (using its various definitions). We can discuss if we measure it in a population does it describe that population. But if you have a scale without the psychometric work, we can only discuss whether it feels correct, whether it describes my personal experience. It shifts from analysis in harder science to that of more post-modern definitions. Thus you can see reasonable people disagreeing as to whether it holds truth. If post-modernism has taught us anything, it is about how even science varies by vantage point. Increase that level to things without modern scientific methods this multiplies. See any modern academic debate in the Liberal Arts …

[7Wannabe5]

But if you have a scale without the psychometric work, we can only discuss whether it feels correct, whether it describes my personal experience. It shifts from analysis in harder science to that of more post-modern definitions. Thus you can see reasonable people disagreeing as to whether it holds truth.

True. OTOH, if our culture holds some sort of formal mechanisms which generally moves individuals or groups of individuals from one level to the next, then a rough consensus might be formed. For instance, Kegan describes Level 4 as akin to graduate school or professionalism in the public sphere. In the private sphere, therapy at a level akin to Schnarch’s take on differentiation in “Passionate Marriage” would also be Level 4. However, many or most individuals who do achieve that which Kegan refers to as Level 4 do not necessarily do so within formal or group setting, so their experience will vary, and they will be lacking the feedback available from group dynamic.

Of course, this might just be my take because I completed the public sphere portion of Level 4 outside of formal setting in my 30s, and I completed the private sphere portion of Level 4 in a more formal group setting in my 30s, and more people have the opposite experience.

Since Level 4 Modern relationship therapy involves full acceptance of divorce as option (unless your Level 4 chosen personal spiritual/religious beliefs preclude this option), on some level it is akin to saying “Conventional marriage or the Conventional family is dead.”

ETA: IOW, in more general terms, a quick and dirty measure of an individual’s level in either private or public sphere would be observation of mechanism by which they make and enforce contract.

[daylen]

To anyone who is perhaps interested in psychedelics, I would highly recommend finding an experienced teacher that you trust. There are traditions and ceremonies around the world that can provide a relativity safe place for this sort of thing (no guarantee). The higher you score on neuroticism, the more likely you are to have a bad trip that could send you into a spiraling depression; on the other hand, if you are already depressed there is accumulating evidence that psychedelics may help. Another option may be to find a scientific study looking for volunteers (I imagine they would provide mental health care and/or therapy after if required).

Meditation in the sense of becoming okay with doing nothing is a pretty safe exercise. Offering a more gradual evolution as opposed to a punctuation in equilibrium. The trick may be that those who need this the most are the least likely to do it out of will (although may be peer pressured into it).

[Jean]

My impression on psychedelic was that it increases false positive in pattern récognition, and makes attention less steerable. It wasn't unpleasant, but i wouldn't take Idea had while triping too seriously. They looked more like unfinished Idea to me. Like if my counsciousness messed around thé office of my subcounscious.

[daylen]

I found that if I attempted to resist a trip it would do just that. On the other hand, if I let go, the two hemispheres worked more harmoniously and thus felt like skying down a mountain after a fresh snow fall covered my prior tracks.

[daylen]

I meant to say skiing but that works too.

[AnalyticalEngine]

@daylen - I've read some anecdotal stories of people taking pyschedelics and were then left in a chronic state of depersonalization/derealization after the trip. What are your thoughts about that? Can one get stuck in a chronic state of ego death/dissociation and get locked into level 1 instead of level 5?

[daylen]

Perhaps more of a K1 state with a touch of K2 depending upon how intelligible they are with others (some may just go completely insane). I've heard stories too, and I can definitely see how it could happen. Just like how going to war or experiencing a more external event of trauma can last.

[daylen]

Another pattern appears to be that ancient rituals involving psychedelic use tended to be near jungle regions. Perhaps this is partially due to the high-risk nature of that environment on the ecological scale and heat on the statistical mechanics scale. Coarsely speaking, civilizations in colder regions have tended to grow in a steady "cold flow" and eventually meshed with less stable civilizations near the equator (although jungle regions tend slow transportation and thus may have elements of cold flow). Intermixed with periods of "hot flow" or rapid territorial expansion/contraction cycles.

[7Wannabe5]

I think maybe the civilizations in the colder regions got their hot flow from activities such as ritual religious flagellation.

[AnalyticalEngine]

@daylen - So if someone gets stuck in K1/K2/DRDP, is there a way to get out of it? Or is the resulting effect like brain damage?

[daylen]

@AE Not sure, ha. I doubt it would be like brain damage in the stroke sense but who knows. I had an idea once that it had something to do with chaos induced in the hemispheric communication channel but there are also other pathways in the body which could be prone to chronic instability.

[AnalyticalEngine]

On reaching level 5, I want some feedback on a realization I just had. Namely, I realized my own identity is just a story I'm telling myself. I got to this point through a combination of meditation and reflection. Basically taking a look at my identity and thinking about each component of it like the layers of an onion. I would peel away one of the layers and really take a look at it. I'd ask myself, what is this label? Where did it come from? What's the context it's fitting in?

And when I did that, I realized most of these labels are pretty arbitrary or they are tied to a very specific social context that's not universal to the human experience. And furthermore, they reveal facets of the human experience that are universal but simply tied to another label in other times and places.

So what I then did was pick some new labels and assembled them into a new onion and decided to give some method acting/fiction writing practices a try and try to make myself think as if I was that new identity and not the old identity. This ended up being a pretty profound experience because I noticed the way I would think with the new identity was fundamentally different to how I would think with the old identity, to the point where there were times where I would try to think like the old me and literally could not remember how the old me thought.

Doing this triggered a brief episode of depersonalization where I started to feel like nothing/fuzzy all of the time, and this particular got worse when I got under stress. I think it also triggered an ego-death like experience where I woke up one day in what can only be described as a soup of incoherent thoughts not attached to any single ego, and it took a few minutes to reassert executive function, if you will.

It's one thing to understand, intellectually, that you are just a story you're telling yourself, but experiencing it was a bit shocking, to say the least. I'm still trying to piece together the implications of this experience.

[daylen]

Peeling the onion too quickly can sever participation, resulting in that fuzziness. Stories are closely linked to what John Vervaeke calls "participatory knowing". A cup of water need not be "defined" because agents can participate in the act of drinking. Agents know a cup by becoming the cup.

How can the onion be peeled in the mist of participation while anticipating disengagement? How can each activity become an actuation blueprint for every other activity? Can the cold flow of everyday reality come to resemble a universal metactuator, continuously probing for deeper/broader insights? How can the metaphorical elements of the prior story project onto time-less myths that cover all that could be/become?