My guess would be that the Airstream place has fees that take care of the operations that are being discussed in the thread. I wish they listed it, but couldn't find it anywhere. I think that's far and away going to be the arrangement you find (just like a condo association). If you're super lucky, maybe the pay sites offset those costs? I tend to doubt they do fully though.
Buying an RV park/ERE City/Tiny House Village/Self-sufficient compound w income
$30,000 would probably be a fair investment to request.
I would also suggest that it be in a temperate climate as I would visit only during the winter months. I'm in Ontario, Canada so it would be an investment into the future and for long holidays.
As per labour, I would recommend a set rate (say $10/hr) for task that could be hired out by the primary shareholder should that labour be in need. Any shareholder could also volunteer (and likely would) to better the camp when visiting.
Decisions could be made via the primary shareholder and by committee if there was a dispute. Perhaps in the most equitable state, the shares would max out at 50% so a decision could be overturned.
I think all investors would want to see a decent return on their money primarily and secondarily a place to enjoy.
What sorts of ROI can be expected from an RV camp?
Can we find something that needs TLC?
As suggested earlier, there are towns where large amounts of land can be purchased for cheap, so blocks can be combine. Obviously this would require a huge amount of work and risk. Detroit was mentioned, but I don't think I would feel very safe there.
I would also suggest that it be in a temperate climate as I would visit only during the winter months. I'm in Ontario, Canada so it would be an investment into the future and for long holidays.
As per labour, I would recommend a set rate (say $10/hr) for task that could be hired out by the primary shareholder should that labour be in need. Any shareholder could also volunteer (and likely would) to better the camp when visiting.
Decisions could be made via the primary shareholder and by committee if there was a dispute. Perhaps in the most equitable state, the shares would max out at 50% so a decision could be overturned.
I think all investors would want to see a decent return on their money primarily and secondarily a place to enjoy.
What sorts of ROI can be expected from an RV camp?
Can we find something that needs TLC?
As suggested earlier, there are towns where large amounts of land can be purchased for cheap, so blocks can be combine. Obviously this would require a huge amount of work and risk. Detroit was mentioned, but I don't think I would feel very safe there.
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jacob
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There are TLC places and turnkey places and many in between.
The ROI I've seen stated (from a broker) was 10-15% for the first year. I don't know if this is optimistic/realistic/...
I would be looking for a 4-season site...not something that would only serve as a snowmobile gas station pit stop in the winter.
The issue with the 51/50 percent is that this could change as soon as someone wants to sell their share. Also, what if the 50/51 holder wants to sell? What then? Dissolve the partnership, sell the site and distribute out the proceeds insofar nobody else wants to take over.
The ROI I've seen stated (from a broker) was 10-15% for the first year. I don't know if this is optimistic/realistic/...
I would be looking for a 4-season site...not something that would only serve as a snowmobile gas station pit stop in the winter.
The issue with the 51/50 percent is that this could change as soon as someone wants to sell their share. Also, what if the 50/51 holder wants to sell? What then? Dissolve the partnership, sell the site and distribute out the proceeds insofar nobody else wants to take over.
These issues, which are generally called "corporate governance" issues, are not that difficult to implement once you figure out what you want. You could make some decisions require a "Supermajority" of 2/3rds or something like that if you wanted to restrict majority control. And you could require a selling party to grant a right-of-first refusal to the other partners in a buy-out situation.
But the critical decisions are what people often don't want to discuss, which is what happens when something goes wrong -- e.g., what if the business operates at a loss and needs more capital? Who is on the hook for what? These are the types of things that will need to be thought through, but again, this is really the cart before the horse.
It seems like there is a loose consensus that Jacob would be the majority owner or "general partner", and there would be some "live-on-sites" and perhaps some more limited or passive owners. The next step is probably for Jacob to identify a few specific properties and see who is really "in", and for what, when we start talking about particular locations.
I would not try to form the legal entity or capitalize it until the property had been selected and a business plan drawn up. You really won't be able to divide up responsibilities until that stage.
But the critical decisions are what people often don't want to discuss, which is what happens when something goes wrong -- e.g., what if the business operates at a loss and needs more capital? Who is on the hook for what? These are the types of things that will need to be thought through, but again, this is really the cart before the horse.
It seems like there is a loose consensus that Jacob would be the majority owner or "general partner", and there would be some "live-on-sites" and perhaps some more limited or passive owners. The next step is probably for Jacob to identify a few specific properties and see who is really "in", and for what, when we start talking about particular locations.
I would not try to form the legal entity or capitalize it until the property had been selected and a business plan drawn up. You really won't be able to divide up responsibilities until that stage.
Yeah, exactly. For whatever you want, there are ways to structure it. A partner couldn't sell until his share was bought up by a buyer, so there would be no instance where 50 became higher.
If the 50/51 wanted out, then there would need to be some condition. Obviously everything is negotiable (even after a draft contract). However, it's best to come up with solutions to all potential problems on the outset. Usually it's the unknowns and surprises that cause people grief, not the expected and predictable.
If a silent partner wants out they could sell at anytime, it's the person running the guts who can cause the biggest problems so perhaps there would need to be a time commitment (5-10 years).
4 seasons sounds great. And many people that initially express interest will probably drop out when it comes to cash. I might decide it's not for me depending on the particulars.
I wouldn't scoff at +10% ROI though.
And yes, putting in additional capital can be a big issue, plus unforeseen problems and major repairs. There might even need to be a contingency fund for major things. A buy in might include a portion of working capital that goes toward needed repairs outside of the principle amount.
This sort of structure is similar to a private REIT. Any group going in on an apartment building would have similar discussions.
If the 50/51 wanted out, then there would need to be some condition. Obviously everything is negotiable (even after a draft contract). However, it's best to come up with solutions to all potential problems on the outset. Usually it's the unknowns and surprises that cause people grief, not the expected and predictable.
If a silent partner wants out they could sell at anytime, it's the person running the guts who can cause the biggest problems so perhaps there would need to be a time commitment (5-10 years).
4 seasons sounds great. And many people that initially express interest will probably drop out when it comes to cash. I might decide it's not for me depending on the particulars.
I wouldn't scoff at +10% ROI though.
And yes, putting in additional capital can be a big issue, plus unforeseen problems and major repairs. There might even need to be a contingency fund for major things. A buy in might include a portion of working capital that goes toward needed repairs outside of the principle amount.
This sort of structure is similar to a private REIT. Any group going in on an apartment building would have similar discussions.
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Riggerjack
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OK, as a teen, I worked as a "security guard" at a NACO west rv park. Black Point, near Brinnon, WA.
let me tell what i saw.
It was a beautiful site, part of the whole chain of sites linked by a Thousand Trails type arrangement. It was NOT a popular site, and frequently on the potential drop list. Black Diamond was a VERY popular site. up near Sequim. the difference? Black point was a wooded/hilled site, with narrow roads. CB/HAM radio reception was blocked by trees, roads were narrow and winding. sites were wooded and private. Black Diamond was a terraced parking lot with a view of the Straight of Juan de Fuca. no trees, no privacy, but great CB reception and easy to park.
Just a head's up in what was/was not popular. Jacob, you won't find much level Oregon coastal property, but that's where the money seemed to be.
Now the park didn't always belong to Naco, it was and apparently again is, a privately owned park. that park took rentals, and provided permanent spaces. those were set up like a condo arrangement. i large payment up front, and a regular payment for power, water sewer, road maintenance, and taxes.
This seems the way to go with your idea. bring in permanent space owners, and rent the rest. have costs documented and agreed on before selling spaces. Then you can have your control, everyone has their own space with their own control, and you can schedule your classes/seminars as you wish, to fill in the slow parts of your calendar.
factor gas prices into your projected rv rental earnings. alot fewer on the road this summer than back in '06...
let me tell what i saw.
It was a beautiful site, part of the whole chain of sites linked by a Thousand Trails type arrangement. It was NOT a popular site, and frequently on the potential drop list. Black Diamond was a VERY popular site. up near Sequim. the difference? Black point was a wooded/hilled site, with narrow roads. CB/HAM radio reception was blocked by trees, roads were narrow and winding. sites were wooded and private. Black Diamond was a terraced parking lot with a view of the Straight of Juan de Fuca. no trees, no privacy, but great CB reception and easy to park.
Just a head's up in what was/was not popular. Jacob, you won't find much level Oregon coastal property, but that's where the money seemed to be.
Now the park didn't always belong to Naco, it was and apparently again is, a privately owned park. that park took rentals, and provided permanent spaces. those were set up like a condo arrangement. i large payment up front, and a regular payment for power, water sewer, road maintenance, and taxes.
This seems the way to go with your idea. bring in permanent space owners, and rent the rest. have costs documented and agreed on before selling spaces. Then you can have your control, everyone has their own space with their own control, and you can schedule your classes/seminars as you wish, to fill in the slow parts of your calendar.
factor gas prices into your projected rv rental earnings. alot fewer on the road this summer than back in '06...
Jacob if you want to do this on the Oregon coast or California Gold Country I am interested, as partner or just a resident. I could come up with $100k cash. The problems of partnerships don't worry me as long as the partner has the same long term goals and a rational mind. There are fair ways to determine a price for a buyout if it needs to happen, such as one partner names the price and the other partner decides if he's buying or selling.
If there was a daily rate, weekly rate, and a discounted annual rate the ERE folks could take advantage of the annual rate and pay it up front.
The ROI for a turn-key RV park will be less than for one which needs work. I would be very surprised to see a turn-key park with 15% ROI, more like 7% is what I'm seeing. I would prefer to fix one up or develop one from raw land. I don't know how hard the zoning/permits are to get but I can find out.
If there was a daily rate, weekly rate, and a discounted annual rate the ERE folks could take advantage of the annual rate and pay it up front.
The ROI for a turn-key RV park will be less than for one which needs work. I would be very surprised to see a turn-key park with 15% ROI, more like 7% is what I'm seeing. I would prefer to fix one up or develop one from raw land. I don't know how hard the zoning/permits are to get but I can find out.
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jacob
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I will put in 200k. I think this puts us in the "high 300s" (so far), which would be something like this
http://www.rvparksale.com/rv-parks-for-sale/110.html
http://www.rvparkstore.com/rv-parks/101 ... d-beach-or (Cap rate: 8% according to http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/17319079 ... -Beach-OR/ )
http://www.goldbeachrvpark.com/index.html
That one is close to my preferences for a park: Fishing, boating, hiking, a smaller number of sites. I would like some more space, but such space would probably be sacrificed for the central location.
I'm not interested in the resort-style with an on-site bar (unless The Dude will run it
), weekend rock bands and daily hotdog eating competitions at 10am followed by the next activity at 11am and the next at noon, etc. all day.
I would prefer not to change an existing park too radically.
http://www.rvparksale.com/rv-parks-for-sale/110.html
http://www.rvparkstore.com/rv-parks/101 ... d-beach-or (Cap rate: 8% according to http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/17319079 ... -Beach-OR/ )
http://www.goldbeachrvpark.com/index.html
That one is close to my preferences for a park: Fishing, boating, hiking, a smaller number of sites. I would like some more space, but such space would probably be sacrificed for the central location.
I'm not interested in the resort-style with an on-site bar (unless The Dude will run it
), weekend rock bands and daily hotdog eating competitions at 10am followed by the next activity at 11am and the next at noon, etc. all day. I would prefer not to change an existing park too radically.
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George the original one
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I think that Gold Beach park would be a wise choice since it has a lot of amenities one wants of an Oregon beach locale.
Questions to consider:
1) what elevation is it at?
2) have there been any problems with sewer/water?
3) does the town of Gold Beach have sewage events during heavy rainfalls? (stormwater runoff and/or sewage system backups resulting in "don't go in the water" notices)
Questions to consider:
1) what elevation is it at?
2) have there been any problems with sewer/water?
3) does the town of Gold Beach have sewage events during heavy rainfalls? (stormwater runoff and/or sewage system backups resulting in "don't go in the water" notices)
That looks very attractive, and the OR coast is one of my favorite places, although I would not be residing there (at least not any time soon). I wonder how much working capital would be necessary. Also how long its been on the market and the pricing history. You probably would want to talk to the owners about their current experiences and get an understanding as to why they were selling.
I keep thinking of Rogue Shakespeare Stout.
I keep thinking of Rogue Shakespeare Stout.
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jacob
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http://www.rvparkstore.com/rv-parks-for-sale/oregon/all
In particular
http://www.rvparkstore.com/rv-parks/722 ... tington-or ... this is not on the coast, it's on the anticoast. http://www.catfishjunctionrvpark.com/
In particular
http://www.rvparkstore.com/rv-parks/722 ... tington-or ... this is not on the coast, it's on the anticoast. http://www.catfishjunctionrvpark.com/
I'd definitely be interested in this. Likely, I would be cash-only at first, but would plan to live there post-ERE.
Obviously, the details are important, especially since those of us with pending savings targets would need to know what the investment + expected monthly operating contribution would be. Are you thinking about what kind of min/max investments you'll take? It seems like min would be around purchase cost / number of spaces, and max would be 50%.
I've liked most of the places you've pointed out, and I'm partial to coasts and wooded areas. In other words, dessert, swamp, etc. is not so appealing (maybe this goes without saying).
Obviously, the details are important, especially since those of us with pending savings targets would need to know what the investment + expected monthly operating contribution would be. Are you thinking about what kind of min/max investments you'll take? It seems like min would be around purchase cost / number of spaces, and max would be 50%.
I've liked most of the places you've pointed out, and I'm partial to coasts and wooded areas. In other words, dessert, swamp, etc. is not so appealing (maybe this goes without saying).
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Riggerjack
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WOW. nearly 400k for .4 acre?
i don't want to rain on any parades here, but this is what i found with 10 on jlscott.
http://www.johnlscott.com/propertydetai ... =301104184 .74 ac shop water sewer hooked up. leveled and landscaped. Mconcerns off the bat: access rv freindly? can the water sewer handle the extra capacity/costs to upgrade. build a ladies men's room, do a little more landscaping, done.
http://www.johnlscott.com/propertydetai ... =300910802 more property, but a little ways to the beach. scooter rentals! this one is rougher, but more potential.
now this is just me. i'm pretty comfortable with risk taking, and am always looking at the potential upside. Jacob, with your city RV experience, 0.4 ac may seem big, but that's just 2 suburban residential lots... if you have 20 rv spaces and a restroom, that's all there will ever be room for.
but then again, the NACO park that met my desires, was the one that was always running under capacity. maybe a 20 space parking lot is what would be popular.
i don't want to rain on any parades here, but this is what i found with 10 on jlscott.
http://www.johnlscott.com/propertydetai ... =301104184 .74 ac shop water sewer hooked up. leveled and landscaped. Mconcerns off the bat: access rv freindly? can the water sewer handle the extra capacity/costs to upgrade. build a ladies men's room, do a little more landscaping, done.
http://www.johnlscott.com/propertydetai ... =300910802 more property, but a little ways to the beach. scooter rentals! this one is rougher, but more potential.
now this is just me. i'm pretty comfortable with risk taking, and am always looking at the potential upside. Jacob, with your city RV experience, 0.4 ac may seem big, but that's just 2 suburban residential lots... if you have 20 rv spaces and a restroom, that's all there will ever be room for.
but then again, the NACO park that met my desires, was the one that was always running under capacity. maybe a 20 space parking lot is what would be popular.
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jacob
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@Riggerjack - Location, location, location. That particular one is inside/next to the city (Walking distance), next to the beach, next to the river. I realize that this one doesn't have room to expand. I'm just giving suggestions.
Most of them are substantially larger, typically 5 acres, but some come with up to 80 acres.
You gotta run water, sewer, and 50 Amps to each of the RV-sites. That can't be entirely cheap.
Most of them are substantially larger, typically 5 acres, but some come with up to 80 acres.
You gotta run water, sewer, and 50 Amps to each of the RV-sites. That can't be entirely cheap.
riggerjack -- I think the problem with those properties is zoning and development.
jacob -- I think that, collectively, we could run the sewer and electrical fairly cheaply. We might need to study the codes a bit, but really it's just some pipes and wires. The unions might leave horse heads in our beds, though.
jacob -- I think that, collectively, we could run the sewer and electrical fairly cheaply. We might need to study the codes a bit, but really it's just some pipes and wires. The unions might leave horse heads in our beds, though.
I don't get how you went from being a gold bug to now wanting to own US land. If you think that the government will have to print money to get out of this mess, how do you think land would be a good investment under these circumstances? If you thought that the government was entering us into a hyper-inflationary period and needed to be in gold, how would holding US land insulate you against this? I don't get it...Wouldn't you be pulling your assets out of US-denominated assets? If you think the government is just printing cash to prop up the stock market, then this wont end well for any investment "IN THE SYSTEM". Im just wondering, not questioning how this RV park ties in to your investment thesis/ideas.
The location of the Gold Beach park is superb but it's small. A few acres would be nice for privacy and the ability to have a large garden. So it would be great from a business standpoint but less so from a quality of life standpoint. I love the desert but the far inland areas will have a harsher winter and therefore harder to grow food. Not a deal breaker.
This article says:
http://money.cnn.com/2001/04/09/sbstarting/q_rv/
$15k to $20k per space to build a park, and permits are hard and time consuming to get. It recommends buying an existing park, and that was in April 2001 when the economy was good, would be more true now.
This article says:
http://money.cnn.com/2001/04/09/sbstarting/q_rv/
$15k to $20k per space to build a park, and permits are hard and time consuming to get. It recommends buying an existing park, and that was in April 2001 when the economy was good, would be more true now.