I'd be curious to see your proto-type.
But this sounds like it may be an idea before its time, at least for small families. And you have to keep in mind, we really don't have a "space" problem in most of this country, even though water is relatively scarce in the western half. I also tend to believe that people who go to farmers markets enjoy going there and would not want to replace that experience. So there is a big marketing issue for this.
Large families will engineer this stuff on their own from scratch. My cousins (families of 8, 12, 14 children, etc.) always has some kind of agricultural operation going on. Not that there are very many of these folks these days.
ERE is going to invest and create ....
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Neil Imrie
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Anybody thought about plants? You can buy containers for a few cents, potting mix works out at only a few cents if bought in bulk and seeds can either be free if you gather them yourself or very cheap if bought wholesale. So for about 15 cents you have something that should sell for a couple of bucks or more after a bit of time. A friend and I have targeted hedging as people tend to buy multiple plants rather than just one or two. We get cuttings for free and if things don't sell this year we can sell them for a higher price next year when they are a bit bigger.
It's not too demanding time wise and is a very soothing way of making a buck. The selling part is pretty easy as we are cheaper than the garden centers and keen gardeners and farmers are always able to sniff out a bargain.
I guess every area would need to identify what works well in their region but it's not too hard to figure out what the market wants.
Vegetables seedlings are another option but the drawback is that you have a limited time to sell them.
All you need is access to water and a little bit of space.
It's not too demanding time wise and is a very soothing way of making a buck. The selling part is pretty easy as we are cheaper than the garden centers and keen gardeners and farmers are always able to sniff out a bargain.
I guess every area would need to identify what works well in their region but it's not too hard to figure out what the market wants.
Vegetables seedlings are another option but the drawback is that you have a limited time to sell them.
All you need is access to water and a little bit of space.
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OurLifeInc.
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The comment regarding Charles Hugh Smiths new book is especially relevant to this thread. Sounds like the idea here would be to invest in something tangible that we would control, vs investing in financial markets where there is less control and greater risk. I would have capital to put up and could lend my marketing experience as well, if needed. As far as ideas...not too many good ones. My wife and i live in downtown detroit...a lot of entreprenuers are trying to get businesses off the ground here. We have kicked around the idea of starting something, but havent thought of anything we truly wanted to do yet.
I don't think that anyone from a forum is ready to enter in to any substantial financial relationship with others over a forum! Just me?
I know this idea is tangential to the ERE idea and may be less of a passive income choice, but I think that ERE forum members could view this more as an opportunity to develop a systematic approach to certain areas, and offer an open source guide that is constantly updated. ERE gardening (like the idea mentioned above), transportation (bike and part distribution maybe as mentioned above), fitness (I'm interested in this), guide to building ownership with tenants. These are areas related to ERE, something easily accessed through the forum, and something that won't end up with a lot of people doing nothing and a few doing everything. We can help work on guides that interest us and stay away from things that don't, and the resulting knowledge can be updated and revised as necessary after it has been field-tested by members.
I know this idea is tangential to the ERE idea and may be less of a passive income choice, but I think that ERE forum members could view this more as an opportunity to develop a systematic approach to certain areas, and offer an open source guide that is constantly updated. ERE gardening (like the idea mentioned above), transportation (bike and part distribution maybe as mentioned above), fitness (I'm interested in this), guide to building ownership with tenants. These are areas related to ERE, something easily accessed through the forum, and something that won't end up with a lot of people doing nothing and a few doing everything. We can help work on guides that interest us and stay away from things that don't, and the resulting knowledge can be updated and revised as necessary after it has been field-tested by members.
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jacob
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@The Dude - For knobs and handles see the Hardware Catalog of Lee Valley. Tons of stuff.
For an RV park, the site income could be split according to shares and the management work could be similar, e.g. if you own 2/7 of the interest you work 2 days a week dealing with visitors.
Any kind of partnership should have something for resolving disagreements of what happens in people want out. The equivalent of a Constitution. I hope the lawyers can figure out something for this.
The RV park can be a Nullhof actually doing something. We could cater to different types than typical RVers. For instance, if we had a collection of tiny houses on site, I could imagine people who are interested in building there own would go there to try to live in one for a while.
We could also cater to startups: Cheap housing, superior internet connectivity or tools, etc. We could host workshops and conferences.
The kind of park I have in mind would be something different than "a weekend of family fun with cookouts and horse shoe competitions", more like a "come here and learn something useful for a week".
@Neil - I like that. Are you in the US? Are there any weird regulations for selling plants? What about heirloom seeds?
@beav80 - We've talked about a wiki before. The question is whether we have critical mass for this. For instance, the personal finance wiki startups I've seen have fizzled. It's a lot of work for just a few people to write.
For an RV park, the site income could be split according to shares and the management work could be similar, e.g. if you own 2/7 of the interest you work 2 days a week dealing with visitors.
Any kind of partnership should have something for resolving disagreements of what happens in people want out. The equivalent of a Constitution. I hope the lawyers can figure out something for this.
The RV park can be a Nullhof actually doing something. We could cater to different types than typical RVers. For instance, if we had a collection of tiny houses on site, I could imagine people who are interested in building there own would go there to try to live in one for a while.
We could also cater to startups: Cheap housing, superior internet connectivity or tools, etc. We could host workshops and conferences.
The kind of park I have in mind would be something different than "a weekend of family fun with cookouts and horse shoe competitions", more like a "come here and learn something useful for a week".
@Neil - I like that. Are you in the US? Are there any weird regulations for selling plants? What about heirloom seeds?
@beav80 - We've talked about a wiki before. The question is whether we have critical mass for this. For instance, the personal finance wiki startups I've seen have fizzled. It's a lot of work for just a few people to write.
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Neil Imrie
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Sun May 08, 2011 10:05 am
Jacob- I'm in New Zealand and weird regulations have not yet reached the world of selling plants.I assume it is the same in the US....but ...I'm no expert on US laws.
Heirloom seeds definitely have potential but we are more focussed on selling bigger numbers. We are trying to avoid the trap of selling only one or two plants at a time.We plan to sell 10,000 plants over the coming year, not too bad for a few weekends work.
One of the main advantages of this little business is that there is very little capital required, the biggest disadvantage is that there is no cash flow in the early stages. We are essentially selling time...just like all those ready cooked meals in the supermarket.
Heirloom seeds definitely have potential but we are more focussed on selling bigger numbers. We are trying to avoid the trap of selling only one or two plants at a time.We plan to sell 10,000 plants over the coming year, not too bad for a few weekends work.
One of the main advantages of this little business is that there is very little capital required, the biggest disadvantage is that there is no cash flow in the early stages. We are essentially selling time...just like all those ready cooked meals in the supermarket.
I can handle the legal. I would probably structure it as a limited liability corporation with an Operating Agreement that specifies who contributes what, when (and if) people get paid and what the exit conditions would be. The legal side of this is honestly not all that hard if you can figure out/agree on what the plan is. That's the bigger challenge.
For resolving disputes, you have a "dispute resolution clause", which could send you to court, mediation or arbitration, or some combination thereof. If there is no such clause, the default would be going to a court.
But if we are clear up front on what everyone is giving and getting, we will minimize the chance of having disputes. Poorly worded or vague agreements that suppose "we can figure this out later" invariably lead to unnecessary disputes and bad feelings.
I do think the people actually managing this venture all need to be in the same place for most of the ideas being talked about. I do not feel a need to be in that location personally.
Whatever it is, I think it would be better to start small, have low expectations and be willing to lose all the capital you contribute. We all need to think in terms of "what is the worst that can happen", because it might.
For resolving disputes, you have a "dispute resolution clause", which could send you to court, mediation or arbitration, or some combination thereof. If there is no such clause, the default would be going to a court.
But if we are clear up front on what everyone is giving and getting, we will minimize the chance of having disputes. Poorly worded or vague agreements that suppose "we can figure this out later" invariably lead to unnecessary disputes and bad feelings.
I do think the people actually managing this venture all need to be in the same place for most of the ideas being talked about. I do not feel a need to be in that location personally.
Whatever it is, I think it would be better to start small, have low expectations and be willing to lose all the capital you contribute. We all need to think in terms of "what is the worst that can happen", because it might.
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jacob
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That's the exact problem with start-ups which are created like this: Let's put together our skills and see what we can build.
Things get planned and managed before they are built in the first place. (From my experience, these kinds of projects never go anywhere.)
It would be much better if everybody starts building. Then later we can see if any of it hangs together.
So maybe people should start talking about what kind of projects they got going on as these will likely be the foundation of any kind of joint project. Then we can see whether there are some unknown synergies that can be created.
Things get planned and managed before they are built in the first place. (From my experience, these kinds of projects never go anywhere.)
It would be much better if everybody starts building. Then later we can see if any of it hangs together.
So maybe people should start talking about what kind of projects they got going on as these will likely be the foundation of any kind of joint project. Then we can see whether there are some unknown synergies that can be created.
I really like the RV park idea, but after thinking about this for a while, I think firefighterjeff is right. Most likely we are all too strong willed to live on a single property together.
Synergies! Does anyone have a project in the works?
How do we effectively communicate ideas/thoughts in the unlikely event that several of us want to create/perfect an idea together? It appears a lot of threads get rather chaotic once opinions and thoughts run loose.
Synergies! Does anyone have a project in the works?
How do we effectively communicate ideas/thoughts in the unlikely event that several of us want to create/perfect an idea together? It appears a lot of threads get rather chaotic once opinions and thoughts run loose.
The only project I think of now and then is an off grid trailer (possibly within a shed/barn/greenhouse) that would connect to structures on land or in ground to store water and take advantage of the thermal mass in the water. The only reason I don't think "house" is because of the many codes and regulations regarding housing structures (and it is good to be able to move your home). I would use most of the water for collecting solar heat in the winter (I was thinking supplimental heat with wood from forest land). If the water was stored below ground it might provide some cooling in the summer (through a heat exchanger). I would also put the trailer in shade/shed. This link is the closest example I have for how this might work even in the winter:
http://www.jc-solarhomes.com/Solar_Heat ... anuary.htm
I would have to do my own experiment to test the calculations I have been doing. Understanding location (weather) is extemely important before you can develop a good off grid layout since the technology requires lots of space and material for the amount of energy returned. Most things that claim to be off grid are just not plugged in or require supplimental energy like propane/gas. Data I have on energy from the sun is general at best and usually is an annual figure.
http://www.jc-solarhomes.com/Solar_Heat ... anuary.htm
I would have to do my own experiment to test the calculations I have been doing. Understanding location (weather) is extemely important before you can develop a good off grid layout since the technology requires lots of space and material for the amount of energy returned. Most things that claim to be off grid are just not plugged in or require supplimental energy like propane/gas. Data I have on energy from the sun is general at best and usually is an annual figure.
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bohorquez1
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:20 pm
It seems someone has already volunteered to do the legal work for a potential project, and I would like to offer my help with the tax/accounting side of things. I think the ERE community can be split into those already retired and those looking to get there. Knowing the characteristics of investors can help us have two investor classes, and the LLC structure allows you to allocate income and deductions in a non pro-rata manner. So on paper we could give the income to those in need of cash flow, and allocate expenses (the largest being depreciation) to those who still have a W2 and need the tax deductions. Personally, I fall in the latter category.
Have you guys thought about collectively writing a companion book to Jacob's ERE? It could show how ERE has been done and how it's currently being done by members on this site. Individual memoirs, ideas, experiences etc? It's a subject near and dear to everyone on the site, individual locations are not an issue, it doesn't have to be a lifelong committment for those more committed to not working 
there's already quite a bit of content from blog posts, just needs a little editing, Seem to be many talented people on this site with various skills to contribute to a project like this i.e. A new member with PR expertise; perhaps she would be interested in helping to promote and market such a book? Would be very timely in this economic climate. Might appeal to a wider public during these times. What do you think?
there's already quite a bit of content from blog posts, just needs a little editing, Seem to be many talented people on this site with various skills to contribute to a project like this i.e. A new member with PR expertise; perhaps she would be interested in helping to promote and market such a book? Would be very timely in this economic climate. Might appeal to a wider public during these times. What do you think?hey everybody! haven't been on the forum for a while.
i agree with Jeff and Jacob (in project proposals of the past) that decentralized cooperation would be ideal. we don't necessarily have to be physical neighbors, when we're already intellectual neighbors here on the forum.
what about a six-month "Tumbleweed Factory?"
i agree with Jeff and Jacob (in project proposals of the past) that decentralized cooperation would be ideal. we don't necessarily have to be physical neighbors, when we're already intellectual neighbors here on the forum.
what about a six-month "Tumbleweed Factory?"
I love the idea storm. And I agree with @Dragline that a workable partnership agreement would be fairly straighforward. Perhaps one snag would be ensuring that any intellectual property (aquaponics patents, software, copyrights etc.) belong to the individual creators and not to the partnership entity. I hate to sound selfish, but such a clause is really the only way to protect the hard worker from the freeloader.
A more fundamental problem that I foresee is the hurdle of placing capital at risk. As an older seeker of ERE, I've worked too long already amassing my nut to subject it to significant dimunition of principle. I simply don't have the time to replace non-trivial losses; so it makes me hesitant. Younger EREistas may be more resilient; but I suspect others of my ilk would have similar concerns. A big part of my own attitudes toward FI were molded by YMOYL. And a big part of the YMOYL plan was a relatively secure, relatively risk-free investment vehicle. Unfortunately, the 30YR T-Bond no longer has the cache it did when YMOYL was published.
A more fundamental problem that I foresee is the hurdle of placing capital at risk. As an older seeker of ERE, I've worked too long already amassing my nut to subject it to significant dimunition of principle. I simply don't have the time to replace non-trivial losses; so it makes me hesitant. Younger EREistas may be more resilient; but I suspect others of my ilk would have similar concerns. A big part of my own attitudes toward FI were molded by YMOYL. And a big part of the YMOYL plan was a relatively secure, relatively risk-free investment vehicle. Unfortunately, the 30YR T-Bond no longer has the cache it did when YMOYL was published.