How to raise a large family and be ERE?

[7Wannabe5]

Also, fairly frequent that human infants are born with minor problems that require medical fix. My DS29 had a pinched ureter, and my DD27 had to have her tear ducts surgically opened. Pregnancy itself complicates other health issues for the mother. I had to be hospitalized for 10 days on a morphine drip, because I needed an appendectomy when 6 months pregnant. Highly contributory to my decision to stop at 2. Other reason being fear that I might lose one at the park if I had 3 (my kids were runners.)

[TheRedHare]

@jennypenny

It's all the above really. IDK if you saw my later post on possibly joining my family's business, but that also has something to do with my decision making.

I'm looking at all this as a system. I've recently started to acknowledge how fragile our modern society is. I work in government and am often around people with Phd's, medical degrees, law degrees, MBAs, etc. Talking with them has made me realize that many aren't well aware of anything beyond their expertise. When talking about scenarios on what would happen if we went into a deep recession, many said they'd most likely die because they have either no desire to 'survive', or just can't image living in a world without all the fancy things that a 1st world country offers.

To me, a traditional style of living seem to be the most economic, and could make me the happiest. Back before social security or any sense of government security for families, all people had were their family members. Once your body would give out from all the hard work, you'd have to rely on your children to take care of you. Now, you're just placed in hospice care until the end of your days, and you'd be lucky if you had family visit you.

I think of the family as the foundation of society, and without that you have nothing. So, I think having a large family would be a great way to go as it can establish a strong support network, sometimes free labor, joy (If you have a loving family).

This leads me into my question about joining my family's restaurant business. If you have a large family, everyone can chip in. There are many different types of roles each could fulfill too. Cooks, cleaners, maintenance, IT, accounting, marketing. All of these things are needed in order to run a business. Not only would the children be able to try out different jobs and find their interests, but they'd also be able to apply all their learning in school to real world situations.

If ever the entire economic system were to collapse, you'd have a strong family that would be able to band together and support one another.

[jennypenny]

@ThisDinosaur— I drive a high-top conversion van like the one pictured below. I’ve had it 15+ years and it has served as a camper as well as family transportation. After my last one moves out I intend to convert it a la C40 so DH and I can use it to visit the kids.



@TD/jacob—I don’t think taking care of other people’s children compares to taking care of your own (you couldn’t pay me enough to work a day care center). I don’t even think taking care of siblings is similar. Siblings can instruct younger siblings and watch out for them, but being a caregiver is different.

There are two reasons I don’t like having older siblings be regular caregivers of their younger siblings …

(1) When the older sibling assumes a caregiver role, the relationship changes. The oldest can end up feeling like they don’t have siblings because even as adults, the younger ones might look to the older ones as pseudo-parents. As the oldest of four, I experienced that. At my youngest brother’s wedding, he said during the toast that he always felt like he had five parents. I think he meant it as a compliment, but it isn’t. Sibling relationships are/should be fundamentally different.

(2) The parents should be the parents. I can’t stand when parents play the ‘this is everyone’s house and everyone should pitch in’ card when they want the house clean or or want older siblings take care of younger siblings, but then play the ‘my house, my rules’ card when they want to play dictator. You can’t have it both ways, it’s either your house or everyone’s. Yes, kids should learn to take care of themselves and help out with chores. And yes, older siblings can look out for other siblings if it’s done in a big brother/sister way and not a pseudo-parent way (too much responsibility and can ruin the sibling relationship). But … kids shouldn’t feel like ‘it’s their house too’ when it’s time to clean it but not when it’s time to make the rules. Authority only comes with commensurate responsibility, so you can’t pawn off responsibilities to the kids and then expect them to respect you as a parent. You have to be the parent.


@TheRedHare — From my response above, you can guess what I think. Join the family business if you want but don’t have a large family because you want them to be a part of the business. Have a large family because you want a large family.

[Jason]

What I lack for in real life experience I make up for in watching too many movies. I guess that makes me the anti-JLF.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Fantastic_(film)

It was Ok with a surprisingly good cover of Sweet Child O Mine.

[TheRedHare]

What I lack for in real life experience I make up for in watching too many movies. I guess that makes me the anti-JLF.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Fantastic_(film)

It was Ok with a surprisingly good cover of Sweet Child O Mine.

Ok, at first I thought it was a cool film, but I couldn't get past the part where they were praising ol' Chomsky lol. Also, the film comes off as being overly pretentious and down right insulting. These kids happen to be good at literally everything, have IQs of around 140, and above all, are complete aholes lol. If I found someone like one of them in real life, I'd think they were cool for maybe 5 min. but then get really board with their mightier than thou personality haha.

But yea, it seems to be not only throwing shade on Christianity, but also promoting lefty values as being superior. Like if you want a film that acts as propaganda, that's fine...but if you're going to do it, at least have some style lol.

[Jason]

Yeah, you're right. I guess the SCOM cover made me forget how bad it was. But I was really thinking from the point of view of title thread. I mean they lived in the woods, grew their own food, were home schooled and could fight off a gang of marauding Neo-Nazis. I think it has to make the cut for ERE movie night based on that alone.

[Jean]

You really found the film to be left leaning?
To me it's more like, "your kids are garbage because you don't pay attention to them", which doesn't sound very leftist to me. I thought they included the chomsky woreshiping to avoid being called out as nazis.

[TheRedHare]

Yeah I think it's fairly left leaning. They are literally quoting people like Mao, Chompsky, and other communist ideas. -"Power to the people" -"Stick it to the man". They also make a couple of comments about their discontent for fascism, capitalism, or any sort of nationalist ideology. So I think it would be safe to assume that they are anarchists of some sort? But where it gets more weird is that they seem to be some soft of pagan; the father is wearing a pagan necklace. They are also quick to bash Christianity, and cast other religions in a better light -the mother was a Buddhist. Basically, if you're a Christian, you're dumb...is the attitude.

I think that the film tries to present itself as the ideal form of combating modernity with it's anti-capitalist, anti-nationalist, pro-nature, and tribalism.....but they seem to be pushing communism as the real answer, with anarchy as a bridge between capitalism and communism. IDK, that's what I noticed in the first 30min. or so of the film.

What made me stop watching was the over the top mightier than though attitude of the characters. Their condescending attitude towards everyone that isn't part of their kin I found really annoying and shallow. It literally shows the oldest son getting accepted to all the elite schools too (good on him....I wonder what his essay he wrote to get in said...'I live in the woods off the gird, and hunt for my own food' lol). So I think it's safe to say they are elitists.

[Jason]

I have to say, I am pretty amazed two other people even watched parts of this film, let alone willing to get into a Truffaut level discussion of it. I was just throwing it out as my usual bullshit.

@TRH

You should have stuck around for the rescue of the daughter from the MacFortress owned by the ruthlessly oppressive and capitalistic bourgeois grandfather.

[TheRedHare]

Ha, yeah we might have gotten a bit of topic, but I had to make a comment on the film. I liked the ERE aspects which you mentioned, but I just couldn't get past the characters.

And yeah I could have just watched the film just to see it, but I've always been that dick who walks out of the movie theater when I don't like it lol.


To get back on topic, I think that living as they did in the film is cool, but a little more extreme for me. I'd go to that level if I knew things were really going to shit, but I don't think we're at that stage yet. My thinking is to have a local family business that provides an actual product, live cheaply by cooking all meals, passing down old hand-me-downs, and homeschooling. I liked how the father in the film kept testing his children (both mentally and physically), this would be ideal, but you have to 100% committed to raising children at that level...which I wouldn't be able to do, especially when I would have to bring in some money.

[Jason]

From a strictly ERE perspective, it's not surprising that the off the grid lifestyle was portrayed in a stone-age/post-apocalyptic/semi-Jungle Book chic that Hollywood marketers find necessary. But I think that makes the idea at once exceedingly more romantic and extreme than it actually is. In actuality, I think the most common characteristic of the people I see trying the lifestyle is not adventure or some type of primal rebellion but nerdiness which of course doesn't sell tickets. Its understandable as people are more inclined to pay money to watch some Tarzan looking dude run around the woods bare chested with a knife between his teeth than a PHD in his back yard trying to figure out the best angle to take a photo of his Civil War looking work boots for his new blog entry. But for the most part, it's those who master the quotidian not the elements that seem to excel.

[Riggerjack]

If ever the entire economic system were to collapse, you'd have a strong family that would be able to band together and support one another.

Well, that is certainly one possibility. Have you addressed the others?

I don't have kids, never will, and can't give parenting advice. But I have known plenty of older siblings who would back everything JP said about older siblings and parenting. Strangely angry older siblings, but that could be my own bubble effect...

And because it never, ever comes up in these threads about having kids... What's your plan for addressing serious health issues, birth defects, autism, etc? My understanding is the autism rate is over 1%, by itself, and you want 8 rolls of the dice? Would you keep going? Are you willing to dedicate your life to ensuring a place for that one child? I have a co-worker, diabetic, losing toes, still working, to build a fund for his 40+ year old boy. He is being far more stoic about it than I would be. Would you be? What if it happens more than once?

As I said, I don't have kids, and never will. A world of 7+ billion, doesn't need an extra riggerjack. When that number starts drawing down, it will be very personal. I am not willing to take that risk. Plenty of others seem to be fine with it, though. If you do decide to go this route, good luck.

[ThisDinosaur]

Just like every other decision in life, you weigh the risks and costs of a thing against its potential benefit. Some people fear the risk of having an expensively sick kid more than they desire a family. I don't blame them. I fear that too, but it never changed my mind about wanting kids. I won't say too much about overpopulation as a reason to stay childless, except to say that its a sentiment that wont ever catch on. Most people in history were accidents and that is likely to continue until we're extinct.

So if you want to have a large family and be FI, I think it can be done. But I agree I'd like to see more examples of families who've done it already.

And wrt bitter oldest children; I have lots of opinions about what my parents did wrong. But giving me more responsibility than my younger siblings was not one of them.