I'm curious if many individuals on here suspect they may have Aspergers, or have a professional-diagnosis?
I appear to have many traits that are similar to those associated with an Aspergers diagnosis - INTJ, social anxiety, mild OCD, ADD, absent-minded, difficulty following verbal instructions and information.
Many of the traits also seem to overlap with a Geeky/Nerdy type personality.
However, I don't overlap with many of the things that appear to be associated. I don't know how much is required.
Aspergers
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workathome
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Aspergers
Last edited by workathome on Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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workathome
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jacob
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Re: Aspergers
Overlap indeed...
http://earlyretirementextreme.com/unrec ... rders.html
Here's a quick guide to interhuman understanding:
Aspies have cat-personalities. Neurotypicals have dog-personalities.
I think this explains most of it
In terms of overlap required, it seems to me that pretty much anyone can be classified by some kind of disorder if so desired. It should, however, only be desired if those traits are a functional problem. Indeed with many personality related issues the problem is not so much in what type you are but what types you're surrounded by.
Another observation that's Aspergers specific is that many of it's characteristic traits are becoming strong points for the way society and technology has evolved. Maybe this is why it's getting more attention now. Conversely, neurotypical strengths are becoming less important. Maybe in 50 years, being normal will be a condition.
Consider the wiki's def of Aspergers
"Asperger syndrome (AS), also known as Asperger disorder (AD), is an autism spectrum disorder (ASD) that is characterized by significant difficulties in social interaction and nonverbal communication, alongside restricted and repetitive patterns of behavior and interests. It differs from other autism spectrum disorders by its relative preservation of linguistic and cognitive development. Although not required for diagnosis, physical clumsiness and atypical (peculiar, odd) use of language are frequently reported."
And lets flip this and see if that doesn't describe Jimbo next door ..
Normality is a neurotypical spectrum disorder that is characterized by significant difficulties in complex understanding and written communication, alongside restricted and repetitive patterns of behavior (smalltalk, favorite chair) and interests (TV, celebrities, sports). It differs from other neurotypical disorders by the relative preservation of basic reading abilities. Although not required for diagnoses, mental clumsiness and atypical (ignorant, illogical) use of thinking are frequently reported.
Is this a problem for Jimbo? No, because he's surrounded by millions of people just like him and so the world is organized for them. Would it be a problem if he had to pick his social activities at the Chess Club, library or internet, and his job involved algebra, and he had to do his own taxes, because that was expected of a normal person. Yes.
http://earlyretirementextreme.com/unrec ... rders.html
Here's a quick guide to interhuman understanding:
Aspies have cat-personalities. Neurotypicals have dog-personalities.
I think this explains most of it
In terms of overlap required, it seems to me that pretty much anyone can be classified by some kind of disorder if so desired. It should, however, only be desired if those traits are a functional problem. Indeed with many personality related issues the problem is not so much in what type you are but what types you're surrounded by.
Another observation that's Aspergers specific is that many of it's characteristic traits are becoming strong points for the way society and technology has evolved. Maybe this is why it's getting more attention now. Conversely, neurotypical strengths are becoming less important. Maybe in 50 years, being normal will be a condition.
Consider the wiki's def of Aspergers
"Asperger syndrome (AS), also known as Asperger disorder (AD), is an autism spectrum disorder (ASD) that is characterized by significant difficulties in social interaction and nonverbal communication, alongside restricted and repetitive patterns of behavior and interests. It differs from other autism spectrum disorders by its relative preservation of linguistic and cognitive development. Although not required for diagnosis, physical clumsiness and atypical (peculiar, odd) use of language are frequently reported."
And lets flip this and see if that doesn't describe Jimbo next door ..
Normality is a neurotypical spectrum disorder that is characterized by significant difficulties in complex understanding and written communication, alongside restricted and repetitive patterns of behavior (smalltalk, favorite chair) and interests (TV, celebrities, sports). It differs from other neurotypical disorders by the relative preservation of basic reading abilities. Although not required for diagnoses, mental clumsiness and atypical (ignorant, illogical) use of thinking are frequently reported.
Is this a problem for Jimbo? No, because he's surrounded by millions of people just like him and so the world is organized for them. Would it be a problem if he had to pick his social activities at the Chess Club, library or internet, and his job involved algebra, and he had to do his own taxes, because that was expected of a normal person. Yes.
Re: Aspergers
when and why did they invent this?
Re: Aspergers
I match at least 90% of the list from the first link workathome posted. I've also wondered if it's worth exploring. Call it a mental condition, whatever. What interests me is, does it lead to a set of tools / strategies that make my life easier / better.
I have not pursued the line of thought, primarily because the people around me get uncomfortable when I suggest it. I hear statements like "I've met people with Aspergers, that's not you..." or "you'd never be able to do X if you were on the autistic spectrum..." or "saying that trivializes what people with autism are going through..."
I too would be very interested if anyone has gone down this path, especially if they've found there are (or are not) strategies that do lead to improved quality of life.
I have not pursued the line of thought, primarily because the people around me get uncomfortable when I suggest it. I hear statements like "I've met people with Aspergers, that's not you..." or "you'd never be able to do X if you were on the autistic spectrum..." or "saying that trivializes what people with autism are going through..."
I too would be very interested if anyone has gone down this path, especially if they've found there are (or are not) strategies that do lead to improved quality of life.
Re: Aspergers
I've been diagnosed with OCD, and done therapy for that, but no therapist ever mentioned Aspies 
I also have some social anxiety (likely due to many years trying to fit in), but I don't think I match the description of Asperger's.
What difference do you think it would make if you got an Asperger's diagnosis?
I also have some social anxiety (likely due to many years trying to fit in), but I don't think I match the description of Asperger's.What difference do you think it would make if you got an Asperger's diagnosis?
Re: Aspergers
I did some online tests for it which suggested I had aspergers, and I definitely have some tendencies in that direction - INTJ, social anxiety, mild OCD, ADD, absent-minded, difficulty following verbal instructions and information. Some say its less common in women, or under-diagnosed. I get slightly obsessed with obsecure things - when I was about 18 I become fascinated with surface water drainage systems, and spent a lot of time researching exactly how the system functioned. I had to understand the system in its entirity and its history. More recently I've become interested in damp-course membranes (yes its weird...)
Jacob's totally correct that any set of personality traits can be characterised as a disorder. That said, I have two male friends who have severe aspergers and they have huge problems functioning in day to day life. Just doing basic tasks like going to work, shopping or having a conversation is a huge challenge for them. They need constant parenting, especially to understand socially appropriate behaviour. (To give an example, one of them kissed another girl right in front of his girlfriend. He said in all seriousness that he did'nt want to offend the other girl by turning her down, and did'nt understand why his girlfriend was so angry) But these are extreme cases.
Jacob's totally correct that any set of personality traits can be characterised as a disorder. That said, I have two male friends who have severe aspergers and they have huge problems functioning in day to day life. Just doing basic tasks like going to work, shopping or having a conversation is a huge challenge for them. They need constant parenting, especially to understand socially appropriate behaviour. (To give an example, one of them kissed another girl right in front of his girlfriend. He said in all seriousness that he did'nt want to offend the other girl by turning her down, and did'nt understand why his girlfriend was so angry) But these are extreme cases.
Re: Aspergers
Just getting back to this thread. I thought jennypenny had posted something interesting, but it seems to be gone. I have not gotten to taking an online test yet. I absolutely would not go someplace to be "diagnosed". Mental disorders are bad to have on the "permanent record", making mental doctors a last, last resort, IMO.
Anyway, I've been talking to people about this in real life. Some of what's come up:
To some extent, my empathy and non-verbal understanding have been trained, largely by my wife and books. I know when people say "X" that they are looking for me to say and do "Y". That maximizes rapport, which leads to me getting what I want, lol.
My interest in the label isn't to diagnose a syndrome, so much as to look for strategies in maximizing my quality of life. If I have a clear understanding of how my mentality differs from "normal", it's easier for me to relate with "normal" people. It also makes it easier to accept that I'm just not going to do some things the same way as others. Instead of wondering "why doesn't X please me" I can just go "oh, I'm not going to think like that"... which could be limiting to
My wife was asking her family about this on Sunday (at a party I skipped...). They said that Aspergers has been rolled into the autistic spectrum. Everyone is on it, it's just a question of how far down the spectrum you go. I might be further down the spectrum than most people, but said that's not the same as having the condition.
Through my work, I've managed to put myself around other people with relatively high IQs. They tend to be more like me, but often are still more "social", for lack of a better term.
Anyway, I'm probably going to explore this a little more, since it's interesting to me. There is a concept I saw introduced in Wired, call "neuro-diversity", that basically suggests people with mental "disorders" are just mis-understood:
http://www.wired.com/magazine/2013/04/neurodiversity/
One of the big takeaways I got is, if someone can learn how to leverage the strengths of these disorders, they can gain a huge advantage in building a profitable team or company. Take people who are very good at specializing, but don't expect much in pay because they are "broken". Put them in situations where their weaknesses are mitigated, and then it's a win for both parties. They can belong, get paid better, have purpose with their work, etc. The person employing them has a talented, loyal team member, at below market rates. They might even be able to get government subsidies for their "disabled" employees. The only problem with this train of thought, is it requires leading people and navigating an especially complex set of interpersonal relationships. I might not be well suited to that, lol.
Anyway, I've been talking to people about this in real life. Some of what's come up:
To some extent, my empathy and non-verbal understanding have been trained, largely by my wife and books. I know when people say "X" that they are looking for me to say and do "Y". That maximizes rapport, which leads to me getting what I want, lol.
My interest in the label isn't to diagnose a syndrome, so much as to look for strategies in maximizing my quality of life. If I have a clear understanding of how my mentality differs from "normal", it's easier for me to relate with "normal" people. It also makes it easier to accept that I'm just not going to do some things the same way as others. Instead of wondering "why doesn't X please me" I can just go "oh, I'm not going to think like that"... which could be limiting to
My wife was asking her family about this on Sunday (at a party I skipped...). They said that Aspergers has been rolled into the autistic spectrum. Everyone is on it, it's just a question of how far down the spectrum you go. I might be further down the spectrum than most people, but said that's not the same as having the condition.
Through my work, I've managed to put myself around other people with relatively high IQs. They tend to be more like me, but often are still more "social", for lack of a better term.
Anyway, I'm probably going to explore this a little more, since it's interesting to me. There is a concept I saw introduced in Wired, call "neuro-diversity", that basically suggests people with mental "disorders" are just mis-understood:
http://www.wired.com/magazine/2013/04/neurodiversity/
One of the big takeaways I got is, if someone can learn how to leverage the strengths of these disorders, they can gain a huge advantage in building a profitable team or company. Take people who are very good at specializing, but don't expect much in pay because they are "broken". Put them in situations where their weaknesses are mitigated, and then it's a win for both parties. They can belong, get paid better, have purpose with their work, etc. The person employing them has a talented, loyal team member, at below market rates. They might even be able to get government subsidies for their "disabled" employees. The only problem with this train of thought, is it requires leading people and navigating an especially complex set of interpersonal relationships. I might not be well suited to that, lol.
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jennypenny
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Re: Aspergers
Sorry, I deleted it in a fit the other day. I heard from someone who doesn't really understand ERE and saw that post as confirmation that ERE isn't anything a "normal" person would do, and suggested that I wouldn't live this way if I just got "treatment" for my issues. Ugh.Scott 2 wrote:Just getting back to this thread. I thought jennypenny had posted something interesting, but it seems to be gone.
Anyway, here's a re-posting of the one that you were probably looking for ...
It depends on the symptoms you have. There seems to be a large group of would-be Aspies on the forum who are athletes or who manage to maintain a small circle of friends and therefore are not considered Aspies.Scott 2 wrote:I too would be very interested if anyone has gone down this path, especially if they've found there are (or are not) strategies that do lead to improved quality of life.
Making changes to your daily routine can help. It's very personal though. Some things that we've found that work include eliminating visual (TV) news including the weather, having massive schedules that everyone can see including activities, who's driving, what's needed, when to eat, etc. Make meal plans and simplify wardrobes to eliminate some hidden stress. (I don't think it's a coincidence that many people here who might be included on a broad Aspie spectrum are attracted to minimalism. OTOH, having several backups of things you use frequently can also relieve some stress.)
Some of the best tips come from people around you who care about you. Ask them. They might tell you strategies they employ to make you comfortable. Maybe they always let you pick where to eat, or don't tell you bad news over the phone, or don't use certain words around you, etc. They might also recognize your triggers better than you do ("I always know if we hit unexpected traffic, you're going to get upset."). They might also know your *warning* signs (you might fiddle with the label of your beer or yawn frequently when you've had enough at a social function).
I set up a huge calendar for a month and put everything I did on it. Whenever I felt a lot of stress, I just wrote "stress" in the exact part of the day. Don't do any more than that. After a month, look for patterns. You might feel stress on Mondays when the work week starts, or on Saturdays because there is less structure, or every afternoon at the same time. Use that information to make adjustments, like scheduling a break during the afternoon or adding more structure to weekends.
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jacob
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Re: Aspergers
As for being an INTJ and dealing with the illogical failings and exasperating incompetencies of "normal people", I found Keirsey's "Please Understand Me" (I & II) to be tremendously helpful, as in "What do you mean some people don't think before they talk?!"
As for an insider's view on Aspergers I found "Be Different" by John Elder Robinson to be an interesting read. It's more an autobiography with comments/explanations than a theory book.
As for an insider's view on Aspergers I found "Be Different" by John Elder Robinson to be an interesting read. It's more an autobiography with comments/explanations than a theory book.
Re: Aspergers
Jacob, I added those books to my reading queue. Thanks.
Jenny, thanks for re-posting. It's weird someone is following your posts on a forum dedicated to ERE, just to judge you about it. They are certainly behaving like the one with an issue.
Some of the behaviors you described, I've actually already adopted. To me, they just seemed "smart":
- No news. I will go in circles reading the news. Especially online, where it changes constantly. I've had to go so far as blocking news.google.com using my browser's parental controls.
- No cable / broadcast tv at home. Since it's constantly changing and is an opportunity lost if I miss something, it will constantly draw my attention. If I turn on the TV in a hotel room, I'm not getting much sleep that night. On demand streaming is ok for me, though.
- At the start of every month, I load a paper calendar on the fridge with everything my wife and I are doing, including recurring activities that are the same every month.
- When I travel overnight for work, I pack all my food, enough for every meal. I list it all out, add up the calories to make sure it's enough, then pack off the list.
- I eat the same meals most days. At times, I've even gone so far as to list what meals I'm going to eat when, on a little list on the fridge. At one point, I even used a spreadsheet on a PDA, to track it.
- When buying my dress clothes, I get the exact same brand and style of shirt, in different colors. Same for pants. And exercise clothes. Actually, I even throw away all my socks at the same time, replacing them with entirely new sets of matching socks. No darning for me
- When I buy stuff like soap, I just buy like $20 worth at once. You know, in case I can't find the soap I like again...
- I absolutely hate to be on the express way. I refuse to drive on it. Even if my wife is driving, I'll encourage us to take a route that's 50% slower, just to avoid being on there. I don't like how fast it goes, or how little control I have over how everyone else is driving. She knows it and does accommodate me. I did't get my first car until my mid-20's. Yes, to save money, but also because I really dislike driving.
- You know, even with my exercise, I gravitate to approaches with a very rigid, defined structure. I lift weights using a program called 5/3/1, where everything I'll do for the month (exercises, sets, reps and weight) is defined via a spreadsheet, calculated based on prior activity. The yoga I prefer is Ashtanga, where the exact poses and sequence are identical every time. There is a strictly defined path of progression and you always know where you are on that path.
I like the idea of tracking sources of stress. I'm already tracking so much, I'm not sure if now's the right time for it, but I'm going to keep it in mind.
Again - I don't feel I am suffering or unhappy. I'm highly functional. It's just interesting to see all these "quirky" behaviors I have may be explained by something more than being "highly intelligent".
Jenny, thanks for re-posting. It's weird someone is following your posts on a forum dedicated to ERE, just to judge you about it. They are certainly behaving like the one with an issue.
Some of the behaviors you described, I've actually already adopted. To me, they just seemed "smart":
- No news. I will go in circles reading the news. Especially online, where it changes constantly. I've had to go so far as blocking news.google.com using my browser's parental controls.
- No cable / broadcast tv at home. Since it's constantly changing and is an opportunity lost if I miss something, it will constantly draw my attention. If I turn on the TV in a hotel room, I'm not getting much sleep that night. On demand streaming is ok for me, though.
- At the start of every month, I load a paper calendar on the fridge with everything my wife and I are doing, including recurring activities that are the same every month.
- When I travel overnight for work, I pack all my food, enough for every meal. I list it all out, add up the calories to make sure it's enough, then pack off the list.
- I eat the same meals most days. At times, I've even gone so far as to list what meals I'm going to eat when, on a little list on the fridge. At one point, I even used a spreadsheet on a PDA, to track it.
- When buying my dress clothes, I get the exact same brand and style of shirt, in different colors. Same for pants. And exercise clothes. Actually, I even throw away all my socks at the same time, replacing them with entirely new sets of matching socks. No darning for me
- When I buy stuff like soap, I just buy like $20 worth at once. You know, in case I can't find the soap I like again...
- I absolutely hate to be on the express way. I refuse to drive on it. Even if my wife is driving, I'll encourage us to take a route that's 50% slower, just to avoid being on there. I don't like how fast it goes, or how little control I have over how everyone else is driving. She knows it and does accommodate me. I did't get my first car until my mid-20's. Yes, to save money, but also because I really dislike driving.
- You know, even with my exercise, I gravitate to approaches with a very rigid, defined structure. I lift weights using a program called 5/3/1, where everything I'll do for the month (exercises, sets, reps and weight) is defined via a spreadsheet, calculated based on prior activity. The yoga I prefer is Ashtanga, where the exact poses and sequence are identical every time. There is a strictly defined path of progression and you always know where you are on that path.
I like the idea of tracking sources of stress. I'm already tracking so much, I'm not sure if now's the right time for it, but I'm going to keep it in mind.
Again - I don't feel I am suffering or unhappy. I'm highly functional. It's just interesting to see all these "quirky" behaviors I have may be explained by something more than being "highly intelligent".
Re: Aspergers
A local book club did David Finch's "The Journal of Best Practices". My wife was already going, so I read the book and went. Got to talk about it, meet a couple people whose kids have aspergers, and participate in a Skype session with the author and his wife.
There were a lot of parallels between the life the author describes and my own. The skype session was interesting, in that it demonstrated the book focuses on the most extreme parts of his behavior.
At this point, I'm thinking I would be diagnosed with high functioning aspergers if I worked with a professional. I have no reason to do so, and I'm sure such a diagnosis carries a stigma in a professional environment.
I personally find it comforting to know that I'm just wired differently. It makes it easier to accept there's some stuff I'm just not going to enjoy or like. IE - I am not missing out or anti-social, just because I don't understand how to appreciate a loud concert or want to attend crowded 4th of July fireworks.
In hindsight, the resulting behaviors seem obvious. Accept that people are different, try to understand what they value, appreciate them for who they are, embrace who you are etc. Everyone encounters similar differences in relationships, they just might be more pronounced for me. It's not complicated stuff, but it is hard stuff to integrate into life.
I wouldn't say I've ever struggled with accepting who I am, but I have certainly wondered at times why I don't fit in, as well as adopted masks to do so. I'd say I feel less concerned about that now. It will be interesting to see how adopting a more authentic self, while respecting the values differences I have from most people, impacts life.
There were a lot of parallels between the life the author describes and my own. The skype session was interesting, in that it demonstrated the book focuses on the most extreme parts of his behavior.
At this point, I'm thinking I would be diagnosed with high functioning aspergers if I worked with a professional. I have no reason to do so, and I'm sure such a diagnosis carries a stigma in a professional environment.
I personally find it comforting to know that I'm just wired differently. It makes it easier to accept there's some stuff I'm just not going to enjoy or like. IE - I am not missing out or anti-social, just because I don't understand how to appreciate a loud concert or want to attend crowded 4th of July fireworks.
In hindsight, the resulting behaviors seem obvious. Accept that people are different, try to understand what they value, appreciate them for who they are, embrace who you are etc. Everyone encounters similar differences in relationships, they just might be more pronounced for me. It's not complicated stuff, but it is hard stuff to integrate into life.
I wouldn't say I've ever struggled with accepting who I am, but I have certainly wondered at times why I don't fit in, as well as adopted masks to do so. I'd say I feel less concerned about that now. It will be interesting to see how adopting a more authentic self, while respecting the values differences I have from most people, impacts life.
Re: Aspergers
When I worked at neuropsychiatric unit, an experienced nurse told me that we all have autism spectrum traits. The defining criteria for diagnosis is if the traits are affecting your daily life negatively. I think that is very good summary.
I feel that autism spectrum, especially Aspergers, has become a fashionable label people want for themselves to explain their personality traits. It was almost a joke at my work. People who wanted to classify themselves as Aspergers usually didn't meet the diagnostic criterias, and those who tried to avoid the label, got it. The gulf between INTJ engineer and a person, who is violent towards her own family, unable to use kitchen appliances safely and unable to remember to unpack groceries after shopping, is wide, but they both carry the same diagnosis. I feel that it disservices the latter group. They are not able to get the help they need, because the diagnosis is considered light (versus childhood autism) although their ability to cope with daily life might be very low. I've met those with childhood autism diagnosis who fare better than Aspergers, and vice versa. From my point of experience, those labels can overlap very much.
A difference between a person with Aspergers who needs pshychiatric care in closed ward and a person at wedding forum who likes to joke about being "almost autistic" with her preparations makes me angry. The limitations and strengths of autism spectrum are not a joke. Nobody jokes about celebral palsy, why autism? It's a different set of wiring, yes, but if you happen to be in the deep end of the pool, living in NT society can be very challenging and require a great strength of character.
My professional background is Masters in social work + public law so I deal with people who usually are not able to live without some kind of support. My private life is also centered around autism spectrum because all my kids are on it, ranging from nonverbal autism to Aspergers. I personally have some spectrum traits, mainly sensory problems which make me unable to eat some things, but I've never identified as Aspergers. INTJ is much better explanation for my personality, because I cope well with my daily life.
I feel that autism spectrum, especially Aspergers, has become a fashionable label people want for themselves to explain their personality traits. It was almost a joke at my work. People who wanted to classify themselves as Aspergers usually didn't meet the diagnostic criterias, and those who tried to avoid the label, got it. The gulf between INTJ engineer and a person, who is violent towards her own family, unable to use kitchen appliances safely and unable to remember to unpack groceries after shopping, is wide, but they both carry the same diagnosis. I feel that it disservices the latter group. They are not able to get the help they need, because the diagnosis is considered light (versus childhood autism) although their ability to cope with daily life might be very low. I've met those with childhood autism diagnosis who fare better than Aspergers, and vice versa. From my point of experience, those labels can overlap very much.
A difference between a person with Aspergers who needs pshychiatric care in closed ward and a person at wedding forum who likes to joke about being "almost autistic" with her preparations makes me angry. The limitations and strengths of autism spectrum are not a joke. Nobody jokes about celebral palsy, why autism? It's a different set of wiring, yes, but if you happen to be in the deep end of the pool, living in NT society can be very challenging and require a great strength of character.
My professional background is Masters in social work + public law so I deal with people who usually are not able to live without some kind of support. My private life is also centered around autism spectrum because all my kids are on it, ranging from nonverbal autism to Aspergers. I personally have some spectrum traits, mainly sensory problems which make me unable to eat some things, but I've never identified as Aspergers. INTJ is much better explanation for my personality, because I cope well with my daily life.
Re: Aspergers
I would also like to add that a lot of people can recognize themselves in the descriptions of a lot of psychiatric disorders. Everyone's behaviour is a little bit weird now and then. That you recognize some traits of Asperger's does not mean that you have it. That you sometimes need to check the stove twice doesn't mean that you have OCD.
Nobody is perfectly normal. Being a bit abnormal doesn't mean you have a psychiatric disorder. Of course there are definitely also people out there who do have a psychiatric disorder!
Nobody is perfectly normal. Being a bit abnormal doesn't mean you have a psychiatric disorder. Of course there are definitely also people out there who do have a psychiatric disorder!
Re: Aspergers
I agree with Rouva and DutchGirl. I don't think anyone here has a disorder that rises to that of a medical condition -- just a bunch of personal preferences that may mimic certain diagnoses. Of course, I've never seen you any of you in the flesh.
A book I recently read "Mindset", (Dweck 2006), divides people up into two general ways of viewing themselves -- a "fixed mindset" or a "growth mindset" (again this is more of a spectrum than categories):
The fixed mindset is described as follows: "Believing that your qualities are carved in stone— the fixed mindset— creates an urgency to prove yourself over and over. If you have only a certain amount of intelligence, a certain personality, and a certain moral character— well, then you’d better prove that you have a healthy dose of them. It simply wouldn’t do to look or feel deficient in these most basic characteristics."
The growth mindset is described as follows: "There’s another mindset in which these traits are not simply a hand you’re dealt and have to live with, always trying to convince yourself and others that you have a royal flush when you’re secretly worried it’s a pair of tens. In this mindset, the hand you’re dealt is just the starting point for development. This growth mindset is based on the belief that your basic qualities are things you can cultivate through your efforts. Although people may differ in every which way— in their initial talents and aptitudes, interests, or temperaments— everyone can change and grow through application and experience."
I believe a large percentage of the folks here, including yours truly most certainly, have started from a fixed mindset personality and have worked or are working on moving towards a growth mindset at least in some parts of their lives. I don't think most personal traits are immutable, no matter how familiar or comfortable they may be.
A book I recently read "Mindset", (Dweck 2006), divides people up into two general ways of viewing themselves -- a "fixed mindset" or a "growth mindset" (again this is more of a spectrum than categories):
The fixed mindset is described as follows: "Believing that your qualities are carved in stone— the fixed mindset— creates an urgency to prove yourself over and over. If you have only a certain amount of intelligence, a certain personality, and a certain moral character— well, then you’d better prove that you have a healthy dose of them. It simply wouldn’t do to look or feel deficient in these most basic characteristics."
The growth mindset is described as follows: "There’s another mindset in which these traits are not simply a hand you’re dealt and have to live with, always trying to convince yourself and others that you have a royal flush when you’re secretly worried it’s a pair of tens. In this mindset, the hand you’re dealt is just the starting point for development. This growth mindset is based on the belief that your basic qualities are things you can cultivate through your efforts. Although people may differ in every which way— in their initial talents and aptitudes, interests, or temperaments— everyone can change and grow through application and experience."
I believe a large percentage of the folks here, including yours truly most certainly, have started from a fixed mindset personality and have worked or are working on moving towards a growth mindset at least in some parts of their lives. I don't think most personal traits are immutable, no matter how familiar or comfortable they may be.
Re: Aspergers
LOL. I am reminded of the great description of INTJs that Lenore Thomson gave in Personality Type: An Owner's Manual. See if you can spot the so-called Asperger's symptoms below:
INTJ
Because INTJ’s rely on Extraverted Thinking for their dealings with the outer world, they often have a scientific, somewhat skeptical approach to reality. They want to know how things work and what they’re likely to do under varying circumstances. Impatient with wasted motion, words, and emotion, their outward demeanor may be difficult to read.
Indeed, an INTJ’s bearing can seem downright Vulcan. The Vulcans, of course, are a fictional people in the Star Trek series – resolute logicians who barely change expression or use body language, even when they’re puzzled or aware of danger. Thus, one might heed the words of Tuvok, the Vulcan tactical officer on the spaceship Voyager, who warns: “exterior composure is no indication of a Vulcan’s inner state”.
Although they superficially resemble Extraverted Thinkers, INTJs are always guided by their Intuition. They are rarely committed to general assumptions about rules, laws, and hierarchy, and they may have an acerbic sense of humor about such things. INTJs will use what works in the service of their ideas; and they will quickly discard or change what doesn’t.
A (probably apocryphal) story tells of a delegation of sailors who went to the tribunal of the Inquisition in the seventeenth century, when the Catholic Church had forbidden the use of Galileo’s astronomy as an affront to the Bible’s account of creation. The sailors sheepishly confessed that Galileo’s theory had both simplified their journeys and made their maps more accurate. They hoped that the Inquisitors would exempt mariners from the church’s proscription against it. The Tribunal considered the problem, consulted with the bishops, and sent an emissary to the Pope. Finally, they conceded. They said, “OK, if the theory works, use it. But don’t believe it.”
This is a pretty fair description of the INTJ’s basic attitude. Fundamental truth is something different from expressed knowledge, which is always a fiction of one sort or another. If a theory works, it doesn’t matter who supports it or what anyone thinks it means. If it doesn’t, why bother with it?
Although both INTJs and ENTJs realize their Intuitions by way of rational criteria – principles, law, organizational structure, and so forth – ENTJs will not usually pursue a goal unless it strikes them as compatible with reason. INTJs are more classically Promethean. They will steal fire from the gods without any assurance that a reasonable hearth exists at which to tend it back home. For such types, knowledge is not information, but a way of looking at things.
Consider James Hillman’s understanding of the soul as “a perspective rather than a substance, a viewpoint toward things rather than a thing itself”. This is a typically INTJ anti-definition. Such types may expend a great deal of time attempting to winnow the actual logic of accepted theories and formulations from expedient or merely limited assumptions. INTJs are accordingly drawn to science, mathematics, and medicine – fields in which new ideas about reality are constantly being forged and tested logically. They may also take interest in psychology, theology, publishing, and linguistics. As they pursue their intuitions, they inevitably combine elements from varied fields, perceiving an underlying commonality of form or meaning.
This sense of underlying structure and meaning leads INTJs to value both elegance of form and subtlety of expression. Nothing exists that can’t bear reediting and paring down to its essential components. The connections INTJs perceive among very different areas of knowledge may be sufficient to convince them they’re headed in the right direction, even when they can’t explain what they’re after.
Like the ISTJs, INTJs cannot accept new information until they relate it to their inner world. However, ISTJs analyze new data by aligning it with what they already know. Once they've accepted a fact, it becomes part of their identity. INTJs explore information largely by rejecting its influence – examining it from other perspectives and determining its limitations.
Because this inner process is tied to their sense of self, INTJs can take a long time to figure out “who they really are”. Their need to find out “what’s missing” from a system of information invariably takes them into their own mental world – to an imaginative reconstruction of ideas – and the effort necessarily becomes a search for part of themselves. Such types can develop the destructive habit of formulating their identity in terms of their ability to see a situation’s limits, needing to find the flaws that will allow them to become spectators rather than performers.
For this reason, others don’t usually recognize the need of the average INTJ for external structure. INTJs are invariably described as independent and self-motivated, and this is certainly true with respect to their strongest functions. Where technical and intellectual competence are concerned, INTJs have a kind of inner compass, and they prefer a situation in which they don’t have to coordinate their work with or report to someone else.
Moreover, they don’t take criticism of their ideas personally. Position, title, and reputation have no meaning for these types. They will not entertain another’s judgement of their worth unless they believe the person intellectual qualified to make the assessment. And even a legitimate judgement will usually strike them as an indication of the other person’s assumptions and expectations.
Personal relatedness, however, is a different matter. INTJs are much less confident in a purely social situation. It is no exaggeration to say that their primary relationship is to their inner world, and they will nurture that relationship at the considerable expense of social abilities and the art of compromise.
In a field that excites and interests them, they are often driven, and they tend to expect the same degree of investment from subordinates. They frequently convey impatience when a situation that had seemed impersonal and outwardly predictable suddenly requires free-form personal interaction.
INTJs don’t like to say something more than once, and they may cut others short when conversation strikes them as unnecessary. Moreover, their need to find an alternate point of view in order to understand something can sound like disagreement or negativity – as though the speaker’s ideas had been judged and found wanting. Thus, even people who know an INTJ well may believe the person is either indifferent to them or critical of them.
INTJs can also be lonely behind their reserve, not knowing how to fit in even when they want to be included. This aspect of the type is partly the result of the INTJ’s comparative rarity. At 1% of the population, INTJs are usually the only one of their kind in a family. Throughout grammar and high school, they are often the only such type in a classroom.
Although this ratio changes at the college and graduate level, when INTJs specialize in fields that appeal to other INJs, for most of their developing years, these types have good reason to feel different from others. Because they relate to the outer world with Extraverted Thinking, they generally interact by trying to determine the logical relationship of others’ views and demands to their own needs. Consequently, they get little experience in areas of relationship that don’t interest them.
Many such types become articulate quite early, and they use their verbal abilities to fend off involvement in anything they don’t understand or don’t wish to. However, their awareness of others’ feelings does not keep pace with their verbal abilities. Young INTJs may be intellectually precocious but emotionally immature, exercising their dominant function by distancing themselves from others, engaging in ironic comments and somewhat juvenile sarcasm.
Sometimes, to their surprise, their observations make people laugh and afford them the group approval they were attempting to preempt. INTJs rather enjoy the paradox this sets up and will play to it – experimenting with the boundaries of humor itself. One might consider comedian Dennis Miller, who presents himself as a caustic observer and occasional saboteur of the images and conventions on which his livelihood depends.
Like all types, INTJs resist their least-developed functions and attempt to avoid situations in which they’ll come into play. It should be granted, however, that Sensation and Feeling, the INTJ’s weakest functions, cannot be avoided wholesale in the course of a normal human life. These functions are our means of concrete embodiment – our physical pleasures and desires, our emotional connections with others, our love of home and hearth, our sense of being grounded and real.
INTJs appreciate these things well enough, but more in the abstract than in the messy realities of everyday existence. Regarding most events as arbitrary arrangements of elements, to be dismantled and reassembled at will, they may find it difficult to assume the duration of another’s affection or interest in them.
In general, these types deal with feelings the way they deal with ideas – by formulating and explaining them to themselves so they know what to expect, or getting far enough outside them to resist their influence. In an INTJ’s mind, friendships require a particular kind of investment; sexual connections another; marriage another. Such types want to know which category they’re dealing with before they get involved.
But real relationship is unpredictable, and real people resist the categories the INTJ attempts to apply. In fact, sexual attraction and romantic infatuation usually catch these types by surprise. And although they enjoy the distinct pleasures of sensuality, the careening roller coaster of emotions that comes with the territory ultimately forces them to use their inferior functions.
As opposed to their usual view of reality as arbitrary, they begin to experience the influence of primitive Extraverted Sensation and feel an anxious sense of material possession. They feel impulsive, out of control, and unable to take anything for granted. They worry that their intellectual life will never get back on track until the relationship becomes more ordinary and settled. Ultimately, they attempt to regain control – by pressing for declarations and permanency, even if their own intentions aren't clear to them yet, or by using their critical judgement to distance themselves from their emotions.
INTJs appreciate the security of a committed relationship, and given the ration of Extraverts to Introverts in our culture, often marry Extraverted types. They enjoy their families and maintain an unusual respect for the individuality and independence of both spouse and children. However, they may not sustain the kind of Extraverted interaction their partner expects.
They’re more likely to settle in and, at their first opportunity , reassert their primary relationship to their inner world. This is true of both male and female INTJs. When there is too much outer stimulation or conflict, INTJs lose touch with their intuitive process and become restless, bored, and emotionally exhausted. Thus, INTJs need a fair amount of time alone.
They also need a fair amount of intellectual challenge and exercise. If a partner can’t provide it, INTJs are likely to seek it privately or with others. The same INTJ who gets bored at parties and looks around for the nearest bookshelf may well forget to eat or sleep when involved in a complex and intricate conversation about ideas. In fact, for an INTJ, the communion of like minds is a kind of cerebral analog to falling in love.
INTJs may even resist concomitant physical attraction to a kindred spirit for fear of compromising the relationship with the exigencies of chemistry and social expectation. Such types frequently envision an ideal way of life that would unify NTJ cerebralism with SFP physical immediacy, but in actual practice, they are most likely to understand such unification as something ultimately spiritual. For this reason, INTJs may have an abiding interest in Sufism, or the Buddhist warrior philosophy, or the kind of mystical poetry that celebrates this idealized state in language.
Ironically, INTJs can best engage their Feeling and Sensate qualities by developing more Extraverted Thinking. The inner world if an INTJ is so compelling that such types can let their physical and emotional needs go for long periods of time. Deliberate use of Extraverted Thinking gives them more of what they need – a sense of rootedness in the material world: the world of bills, train schedules, medical and dental appointments, shoe repair, and the like. As the Zen Buddhists are wont to say, “after ecstasy, the laundry.”
Extraverted Thinking also connects them to the assumptions and expectations of others, so they are better able to analyze people’s expressions and behaviors for social cues. Many INTJs find, for example, that their career ambitions push them into developing a serviceable repertoire of behaviors that convey goodwill and put people at ease. Ultimately, these behaviors are more predictable than the abstract categories of relationship INTJs are inclined to devise.
When Extraverted Thinking isn't working well enough, INTJs draw directly from their tertiary function, Introverted Feeling, which merely rationalizes and supports their worst tendencies. It encourages them to idealize their abstract ideas about life and to avoid real relationships as unworthy of their investment. Such INTJs are often credited with staying above the emotional fray of life, when they have actually never been in it.
Re: Aspergers
Interesting responses. The term aspergers is charged
I am certainly not on the most extreme end of the spectrum. Let's assume I don't meet the criteria for the label. I don't think that eliminates the potential value of the compensating strategies.
My primary concern is identifying tools for a better life. If a share a subset of the traits, and those traits benefit from doing X, Y and Z - I'll try doing X Y and Z.
I am certainly not on the most extreme end of the spectrum. Let's assume I don't meet the criteria for the label. I don't think that eliminates the potential value of the compensating strategies.
My primary concern is identifying tools for a better life. If a share a subset of the traits, and those traits benefit from doing X, Y and Z - I'll try doing X Y and Z.
Re: Aspergers
My wife and I read "Be Different". I thought it was applicable enough that I categorized the behaviors into "embrace" and "respect but mitigate", with corresponding mitigation strategies.
Many of the "respect but mitigate" behaviors are socially troublesome, but valuable in my line of work. Some of the more interesting:
Weak emotional triggers
Overwhelming need to correct "wrong"
Focus to the point of total obliviousness to others
Dis-proportionate sense of caution
Heavy reliance on ritual
Over-developed sensitivity to light, sound, touch, smells
Interesting to see how the behaviors can be used to counter-act each other. Weak emotional triggers and obliviousness to others can be balanced by ritualizing social interactions. Over-developed sensitivity can be numbed by falling back on the ability for extreme focus.
Some things just have to be dismissed. If I'm nervous about something, or certain somebody is wrong about something un-important, my best strategy so far is to simply discount those feelings, using my knowledge that "this feeling tends to be inaccurately strong" as another input for my decision making.
I've been drawn towards compensating behaviors like this anyway, but now I have a better framework to understand and manage them.
Many of the "respect but mitigate" behaviors are socially troublesome, but valuable in my line of work. Some of the more interesting:
Weak emotional triggers
Overwhelming need to correct "wrong"
Focus to the point of total obliviousness to others
Dis-proportionate sense of caution
Heavy reliance on ritual
Over-developed sensitivity to light, sound, touch, smells
Interesting to see how the behaviors can be used to counter-act each other. Weak emotional triggers and obliviousness to others can be balanced by ritualizing social interactions. Over-developed sensitivity can be numbed by falling back on the ability for extreme focus.
Some things just have to be dismissed. If I'm nervous about something, or certain somebody is wrong about something un-important, my best strategy so far is to simply discount those feelings, using my knowledge that "this feeling tends to be inaccurately strong" as another input for my decision making.
I've been drawn towards compensating behaviors like this anyway, but now I have a better framework to understand and manage them.
Re: Aspergers
Hmm I have entertained the idea of having Aspergers as a result of reading various lists of symptoms but have never been in a situation where I have been diagnosed. I am aware of colleagues whose children have been diagnosed with Autism or Aspergers and I have found I related to them and considered them friends. It has been identified that Autism is a genetic trait that exists on the male chromosomes.
Thanks for that post GandK because that nailed my personality and some relationships i have experienced.
Jennypenny thanks for re-posting because I can relate to those behavioral traits.
Now guys if you think you are Aspergers (on the Autisitc spectrum) are you referring to behavioral traits (adaptable) or genetic traits (mental characteristics you are born with)
By behavioral I mean whilst your personality is INTJ - you can always adapt it to a certain situation if you really need to. Otherwise, if your condition is genetic you actual require remedial treatment.
Thanks for that post GandK because that nailed my personality and some relationships i have experienced.
Jennypenny thanks for re-posting because I can relate to those behavioral traits.
Now guys if you think you are Aspergers (on the Autisitc spectrum) are you referring to behavioral traits (adaptable) or genetic traits (mental characteristics you are born with)
By behavioral I mean whilst your personality is INTJ - you can always adapt it to a certain situation if you really need to. Otherwise, if your condition is genetic you actual require remedial treatment.