The Idled Young Americans

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Ego
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Post by Ego » Mon May 20, 2013 1:03 am


This is comparable to why I support a generous social safety net. I'm happy to reward the parasites if it means giving poor children a chance to escape poverty.
To what extent?
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/ ... AX20130518


Seneca
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Post by Seneca » Mon May 20, 2013 9:01 pm

duped


Seneca
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Post by Seneca » Mon May 20, 2013 9:03 pm

The only practical solution I know is ERE.

Agreed. We can write a whole lot of other bullshit, snipe each other about labels, certain sentences in posts and all the standard internet arguments from the various viewpoints on the issue, but it all comes back to that.
There's simply no pragmatic solution anyone else is bringing forward that provides a path both for the poor and disillusioned to help themselves, and to incentivize the pullers to keep pulling and not stand in the way of technical progress (which is good on the whole).
Yeah, I'll admit that. Being the antisocial introvert that I am, I've always been amazed at people who can spend so much time kissing ass with a smile on their face. Salespeople in particular astound me like aliens from another planet.
However, it's still a kind of corrupt and dishonest work. I agree whinging about it isn't exactly productive, but grumble grumble.

Seriously, that's pretty offensive crap.
I sat at my wife's graduation listening to a bunch of recent JD advocates talk about how they were going to save the world from climate change with their law degrees.
But hey...I'm corrupt. The good guys are all those idealistic attorneys and politicians passing Energy Star regulations and shuffling papers....after us salespeople had already connected people and improved server power consumption efficiency by 10% (and gone beyond the regulators) for good & profit.


secretwealth
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Post by secretwealth » Mon May 20, 2013 9:56 pm

A salesperson has never sold something that harms the environment to enrich themselves?


Seneca
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Post by Seneca » Mon May 20, 2013 10:16 pm

A salesperson has never sold something that harms the environment to enrich themselves?

Is writing a dishonest and corrupt trade because a few guys hacked phones?
There are the minority scofflaws everywhere. Trade is not honest or dishonest until the characters involved show up for a transaction and make it one or the other.


secretwealth
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Post by secretwealth » Mon May 20, 2013 10:56 pm

I guess the onus is on you to prove that the scofflaws are a minority, not a majority.
And I'd say, by and large, most writers are dishonest and corrupt, yes.


Seneca
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Post by Seneca » Tue May 21, 2013 12:05 am

Even if most people in any trade are rotten, it doesn't make the trade rotten. (including trades I too think are largely peopled by despicable individuals, such as CA state and federal poliTICs)
@bluejoey-
I'm pretty sure this is the logic companies used to use to coerce people into working 80 hour workweeks less than two centuries ago. It's a race to the bottom unless people band together to fight for better working conditions.

What about the people who want to work 80 hour workweeks? Why do we insist on coercing them in to not doing so? Why is that any more right?


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Post by jacob » Tue May 21, 2013 12:17 am

Since I think it's a better use of energy, I suggest focusing this thread on what
1) Idled Young Americans can do to become un-idled if they so desire---in case they read this.
2) What you can do to help individual IYAs should you so desire.


Dragline
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Post by Dragline » Tue May 21, 2013 3:36 am

There is a marked contrast between this thread and the "ERE at 18" thread.
While I subscribe to the Gen-X values of Liberty, Honor and Survival that are all represented here, sometimes it devolves into abject pessimism or mere consistency for consistency's sake.
And idle hands are the devil's work! ;-)


bluejoey
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Post by bluejoey » Fri May 24, 2013 5:20 am

What about the people who want to work 80 hour workweeks? Why do we insist on coercing them in to not doing so? Why is that any more right?

Very few people willingly work 80 hour workweeks when given the opportunity to work fewer. However, very many people worked those hours in the past because they were coerced into doing so, and very many continue to do so today (primarily in poor countries exploited by rich ones) in the hopes of their children not having to do so tomorrow.


Felix
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Post by Felix » Fri May 24, 2013 10:47 am

We are all working towards ERE here. One day we'll be able to live off our dividends and have a low-impact frugal lifestyle without having to work. The real-world benefits of this are low consumption of actual resources, a smaller carbon footprint, and more self-actualization in terms of work. For this, we work for wages and save for 5-10 years.
It is also the general consensus on this forum that this is a good thing and that it would be good if more people did this instead of crazy work-slave-consumerism.
So a basic income would be the shortcut towards this goal for most people. Even those without the motivation and insight to go there by saving for 5-10 years can be capable of living a low-impact lifestyle. Even if most people spend their time surfing the web, smoking weed and eating ramen, it's still a low-impact lifestyle.
Why is it okay for us to do this and not for everyone else? It would give people quite a head-start. Is it because we worked for 5-10 years already living the low-impact lifestyle?
I would think a basic income would be a major shift towards a more frugal consumption pattern for people motivated to avoid pointless work. And isn't that part of why we are all doing this?
Just think about the lower requirements for cars and gas if people didn't commute to work every workday.
Wouldn't the real-world benefits in terms of lower resource-depletion be worth it?


bluejoey
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Post by bluejoey » Sat May 25, 2013 3:53 am

^ I'm borrowing your post for a separate thread, if you don't mind, Felix. I think it's an excellent question all on its own.


Felix
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Post by Felix » Sat May 25, 2013 8:52 am

Sure, go ahead. It increases my chance at getting an answer to my question. :-)


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Stahlmann
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Re: The Idled Young Americans

Post by Stahlmann » Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:40 pm

anybody changed their mind if it comes to the ideas in this topic after 6 years?
(it's not like I just wanna close my eyes in front of hard truth, but I don't wanna be misleaded by not uptodate info).

Bonus question:
Why do American companies outsourced EPO to India, not to EE?

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Ego
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Re: The Idled Young Americans

Post by Ego » Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:30 am

Stahlmann wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:40 pm
anybody changed their mind if it comes to the ideas in this topic after 6 years?
Yes, I have.

In the OP I mentioned two friends with mid-twenty-year-old kids who were idle. At the time I felt sorry for my friends and didn't have much respect for the kids. In the intervening years the kids have still not launched despite the booming economy. They are now in their early thirties and while living on their own are still subsidized significantly or fully by their parents.

My opinion of them changed when I spent some time with the kids and parents together. Raising kids with an Arkangel* level of protection will inevitably create children lacking grit. It is unreasonable to expect otherwise. They can't pull themselves up by their bootstraps if they've never had to do any pulling before.

From the parents perspective, they were doing what all the 'good' parents at the time were doing. They were extremely involved in their kids overscheduled lives and never let anything bad happen. Had they not been so involved they would have been judged as bad parents.

I'm not a parent so it is hard for me to have a truly informed opinion. Now I just feel sorry for everyone involved.

It seems to me that real good parents have to be willing to be judged by others as bad parents for the sake of making good kids. But what do I know?

*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkangel_(Black_Mirror)

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jennypenny
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Re: The Idled Young Americans

Post by jennypenny » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:13 am

Ego wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:30 am
It seems to me that real good parents have to be willing to be judged by others as bad parents for the sake of making good kids.
^^This, although I might rephrase it to say 'for the sake of making good adults'. Making kids happy is easy enough if you're willing to indulge them all the time. And you can pay for advanced everything to make them look successful on paper if you're willing to work to pay for an instagram-worthy childhood. But that doesn't necessarily translate into them becoming happy or successful adults.

We were criticized *all the time* for the way we raised our kids ... expectations too high, too hard on them, rules not 'age appropriate' ... and it SUCKED. It came from everyone -- teachers, friends, family members, strangers. Of course now that they are launching successfully, we get told how 'lucky' we are that we have good kids. :roll: I'm the first to admit we are definitely lucky wrt our kids, and they have had a couple of speed bumps that helped to mature them, but :evil: :evil: :evil: it never occurs to anyone that maybe our parenting *was* age appropriate and it's the current popular standards that are the problem.

:oops: sorry, still pisses me off

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Sclass
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Re: The Idled Young Americans

Post by Sclass » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:45 am

I’ve changed my mind about this. My neighbors on several sides have stay at home adult kids. I’ve shut up and opened my ears a bit and realize their folks want them to be there. There is a big family dynamic next door with three adult kids taking walks, having cookouts and walking daily to the community pool with mom and dad. The mom and daughter act more like girlfriends on the way to the pool. I see the big son’s flipping steaks on their grill with their dads and drinking beers. I don’t quite get it yet, but I’m more understanding.

The other neighbors support two daughters rooming together offsite. I get the feeling they want to protect the girls.

There is something really nice about it. I certainly don’t have this and sometimes I feel a bit lonely when I see the dynamic playing between them. They want this.

Personally I’ve tried very hard to break free of my parents’ household. Their harsh and somewhat abusive child rearing tactics made me fiercely independent. But at the end of the day I returned to SoCal to take care of my mom for the last seven years. I resisted my dad who wanted me to move into the house. That same streak of independence made me choose a home 60 miles from the residence and telecommute to the house to supervise mom’s staff. But oddly now that it’s all over, I own the home and I still do not live there. I return to cut the grass and empty the mailbox twice a month.

To some moving in with mom and caring for her would be the good thing to do. I just couldn’t stomach moving home into my dad’s over-controlling atmosphere. I met up with him at the house for his college alumni reunion last month. His second wife was there and she berated me the entire time for not moving in. I was wasting the asset supposedly. But I’m 50 and I’m too old to move home. I also don’t need a free house. I guess her kids do so that is why there is tension about me controlling yet not utilizing the asset.

Bottom line is I cannot stand the idea of moving into my parents home and “living off them”. I don’t even want to rent the place out and collect income because it feels like they’re subsidizing me.

On one of these threads Dragline or Ego said it was the greatest thing to raise strong and independent kids. Sounds good. And it may take tough love.

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Ego
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Re: The Idled Young Americans

Post by Ego » Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:55 am

jennypenny wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:13 am
:evil: :evil: :evil: it never occurs to anyone that maybe our parenting *was* age appropriate and it's the current popular standards that are the problem.
Well, fwiw, it occurred to me. ;)

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jennypenny
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Re: The Idled Young Americans

Post by jennypenny » Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:27 am

I should have made it clear that I don't think that living with adult children is a bad thing. It makes no sense from an environmental standpoint to have everyone off living by themselves in separate housing. Also, telling kids that there's a time limit for when they need to leave might push them into making some poor choices. I think extended family arrangements can be enjoyable and healthy. And sometimes not. :P You know whether your kid is leaning on you too much, and your kids will know if you're clinging to them to avoid an empty nest.

We've always known our youngest may have to live with us as an adult. For that reason, we've been careful to cultivate a family compound vibe more than a my-house-my-rules kind of thing. They are always welcome and know it. While it might encourage some people to take advantage of their parents, I think it's been beneficial overall. They seem more willing to try things and venture further afield since they know they have a home base and don't have to ask for permission to come back. They also feel some ownership of the house. (I came home the other day to find my boys with the dishwasher disassembled while they tried to repair it. They didn't wait to ask me or assume I would fix it.)

@sclass -- I know your family dynamics are messed up. I'm not arguing with you. I'm only pointing out that I don't think it's always the living arrangements that are the problem/solution.


I had no idea how bitter I am about this. :lol: I need to let it go.

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Sclass
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Re: The Idled Young Americans

Post by Sclass » Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:57 am

jennypenny wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:27 am

@sclass -- I know your family dynamics are messed up. I'm not arguing with you.
I didn’t see it as arguing. We all have unique constraints. I think your comments on kids leaning, parents pushing or clinging are good. There needs to be a balance.

The family compound sounds interesting. I forgot about your particular situation. At the end of the day the home is our living machine. Different demands, different machine.

My grandfather had a compound for the family. My siblings lived in and out of it while attending college. My uncle raised his family there and they turned out...different. Successful, they are all attorneys and doctors. But different. My dad refused to live there. He even went as far as buying a home a block away when he wanted to “come home” in his 50s. But he hated the thought of living on the property with his dad even though he really wanted to be by his side in his last years.

It was a pretty cool place. Separate homes on one site. I’d visit and raid grandmas kitchen for goodies. But there was this crushing control from the old man. When my grandfather died my uncle was the last one there. He leveled the place and moved far away. My dad still lives a block away though.

If you can make the family compound work it sounds really nice. Something I’m missing in my life I guess.

Edit - BTW your sons rock!
(I came home the other day to find my boys with the dishwasher disassembled while they tried to repair it. They didn't wait to ask me or assume I would fix it.)

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