@firefighterjeff
Good Idea, and I will start here. I was attracted to the original message of ERE by the fact that someone had actually made it work. What we have is a 30ish guy who overcame the odds of not even being a US citizen of birth, came here, well educated, got himself a high paying job and saved the money up.
He was able to get returns on investments of this money and live thereon, and quit the corporate ratrace. Doing this meant not accepting the status quo of the American lifestyle.
That non acceptance, that opting out, that rise of intelligence, that "no" to it, was what brought me to the site, blog, forum.
I could not play the "young and quit" game, but I could jump on the bandwagon and learn about those here who could. I could encourage that aspect by a few posts I made.
I never had a hard time during my careers, but I could certainly see those here who had "had it" with the earn a living syndrome. Let's say opportunities have changed a lot in the last 20-25 years. I would hate to be starting all over again, and if I were, I would love to follow something like Jacob has done.
I have learned from the forum members the distasteful work situations they have experienced and I am so thankful those members are engaged in reaching something better.
Jacob is to be applauded. "No bout a doubt it". He said "no" to American work/spend/slavery/debt/consumption/greed.
After all his work, I guess he now has a big paying job, but I bet that will not change him one iota. He will retain his freedom from the chains of consumer debt slavery lifestyle.
We used to be able to do that normally, I did it a long time ago, but anymore, I don't think we can without some "extreme" methods, which Jacob has taught us.
My .02 and thanks firefighterjeff for bringing this up!
The Original Message
I was originally attracted to ERE because of the principles of frugality. I was searching for articles including "tips" on how to live on less than $30k/yr. I lacked the skills and know-how to live comfortably on my income, and I was tired of reading articles suggesting that I give up my Starbucks and magazine habit to save money. (I've never indulged in such extravagances.)
I'm keenly aware (even before ERE) that I live a very affluent lifestyle compared to the rest of the world and all of history. Yet without the skills needed to live on less, I was still having a hard time making do. Through ERE I've found the courage I needed to tackle new projects and learn new skills and I've increased my family's net worth by $8000 in the last 8 months (which isn't bad for family of three with a take home pay of $33k). Even though ERE is more about philosophy than skills, seeing how other people do it has helped greatly. I need ERE skills and lifestyle just to get by. If at some point in the future I have greater income, I will be able to save more quickly. In the meantime, my self-reliance has increased along with my self esteem.
The community here is very supportive and has greatly helped me. Whenever I have a question, it is answered intelligently and thoughtfully. There is no other place I can go for a sane perspective on lifestyle and finance. Although we sometime have heated debates, they are just that, debates. Don't let it leak into other threads.
I'm keenly aware (even before ERE) that I live a very affluent lifestyle compared to the rest of the world and all of history. Yet without the skills needed to live on less, I was still having a hard time making do. Through ERE I've found the courage I needed to tackle new projects and learn new skills and I've increased my family's net worth by $8000 in the last 8 months (which isn't bad for family of three with a take home pay of $33k). Even though ERE is more about philosophy than skills, seeing how other people do it has helped greatly. I need ERE skills and lifestyle just to get by. If at some point in the future I have greater income, I will be able to save more quickly. In the meantime, my self-reliance has increased along with my self esteem.
The community here is very supportive and has greatly helped me. Whenever I have a question, it is answered intelligently and thoughtfully. There is no other place I can go for a sane perspective on lifestyle and finance. Although we sometime have heated debates, they are just that, debates. Don't let it leak into other threads.
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LiquidSapphire
- Posts: 510
- Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:40 pm
I view Jacob's original message as what he now has posted on his blog on the top left hand side:
"Becoming debt-free is the first step to building a better world. Financial independence is the second. Doing what YOU want is the third."
It has made my life much better because I was hitting a crossroads in my life, very unhappy with work but unable to see another option that seemed realistic or palatable. Meanwhile I was saving something like 30% of my salary with no hardship what so ever. I was hitting a point where I was about to dive into consumerism because I didn't really have a vision for what else that money could be spent on. At the same time I realized that rather than retiring "early" at 57, hot damn, I could be FI at 37, or even earlier than that! Jacob made me realize it was realistic and possible, and I'll always be grateful and indebted for that.
"Becoming debt-free is the first step to building a better world. Financial independence is the second. Doing what YOU want is the third."
It has made my life much better because I was hitting a crossroads in my life, very unhappy with work but unable to see another option that seemed realistic or palatable. Meanwhile I was saving something like 30% of my salary with no hardship what so ever. I was hitting a point where I was about to dive into consumerism because I didn't really have a vision for what else that money could be spent on. At the same time I realized that rather than retiring "early" at 57, hot damn, I could be FI at 37, or even earlier than that! Jacob made me realize it was realistic and possible, and I'll always be grateful and indebted for that.
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aussierogue
- Posts: 379
- Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:02 pm
I first read about ERE in Charles Hughes Smith's recent book "An Unconventional Guide to Investing in Troubled Times". My personal attraction to it has to do with personal values and a belief that we are in a troubled time like the 1930s and need to re-learn how to survive and thrive on fewer resources. Best described in my intro post:
viewtopic.php?t=1396
I find that there is a greater proportion of thoughtful people on this forum than in most things I read. It is nice to see people with differing opinions have respectful discussions and share their knowledge and experiences. I feel like I have learned a lot here and its become kind of an intellectual "home" of sorts.
viewtopic.php?t=1396
I find that there is a greater proportion of thoughtful people on this forum than in most things I read. It is nice to see people with differing opinions have respectful discussions and share their knowledge and experiences. I feel like I have learned a lot here and its become kind of an intellectual "home" of sorts.
I agree with bigato. Sometimes you just don't know what you don't know. I came here to learn from people who are doing the things I'm interested in doing. I came loaded with prejudices and preconceived notions, some of which I still hold and some of which I do not. Of course our methods all differ... we have different ages, goals, backgrounds, political stances, etc. As to disagreements, I can't speak for everyone but I'd much rather argue with an intelligent man than make polite small talk with a moron. The former, even if it offended me, could create personal growth in one or both of us. And to tie back in with the original purpose of the site, what's financial growth for if not to create an environment for personal growth?
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TheWanderingScholar
- Posts: 650
- Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:04 am
The reason I became so interested to ERE is because I've always wanted to live a life as an writer but reality came up and bit me on the butt and I realized that I needed I actually needed a real job, which was kind of depressing at that moment of time.
Then I found ERE which was a way of life that seemed interesting and could allow me to write without worry about paying for bills, food, and rent/mortage.
Not only that but ERE seemed a heck of lot depressing to me than working fourty years of your life at a job you could really hate.
Then I found ERE which was a way of life that seemed interesting and could allow me to write without worry about paying for bills, food, and rent/mortage.
Not only that but ERE seemed a heck of lot depressing to me than working fourty years of your life at a job you could really hate.
First let me oblige the OPs original request
At too late of an age, ERE (the book and this community) has fostered personal growth squarely aimed at not accepting the world for what others would like you to believe. I became too wrapped up in my "good" career and dismissed some obvious points along the way.
Now to the real point
Many of the arguments tackled here do not have an answer. They only have an ethical stance. Part of my growth away from the dark side is to still see both sides of any argument but to be able to take a stand on one side after amassing the appropriate information or individual thought processes to support my point. For the most part, debaters on this site do just that without meaningless prejudice or misinformation. Thats what makes this site so different.
So with any great thread I intend to help fuel an argument with this post....
If you are informed about a subject, have a strong feeling about it, and can expouse it in a meaningful, non-condescending manner, I say post it. If you are on the other side of the argument and it pisses you off...Good. Maybe that will spur additional learning about your side and/or the other side and provoke some original thought of your own. If you are disabled by your anger and can't properly retort with wit and charm.....thats another problem in itself.
Just as with any type of growth, Transition into ERE has not always been comfortable for me. Conversations on this forum, (at least the good ones) sometimes get a little uncomfortable. Change and or doing the "right" thing is not always comfortable as it is often not a mainstream action! Reading and interacting on this forum is not always comfortable! (it is however always truthful and thoughtful) People seek refuge in like minded groups when threatened. I read most of the posts on most every thread of this forum. Groups do form but I don't think they are static.
I like the idea of the forum celebrating successes. I usually agree (camp) with you on the more difficult subject matter FFjeff, but definitely not on nicing conversations down. In my opinion it has a diluting effect that strays away from the original, extreme message
At too late of an age, ERE (the book and this community) has fostered personal growth squarely aimed at not accepting the world for what others would like you to believe. I became too wrapped up in my "good" career and dismissed some obvious points along the way.
Now to the real point
Many of the arguments tackled here do not have an answer. They only have an ethical stance. Part of my growth away from the dark side is to still see both sides of any argument but to be able to take a stand on one side after amassing the appropriate information or individual thought processes to support my point. For the most part, debaters on this site do just that without meaningless prejudice or misinformation. Thats what makes this site so different.
So with any great thread I intend to help fuel an argument with this post....
If you are informed about a subject, have a strong feeling about it, and can expouse it in a meaningful, non-condescending manner, I say post it. If you are on the other side of the argument and it pisses you off...Good. Maybe that will spur additional learning about your side and/or the other side and provoke some original thought of your own. If you are disabled by your anger and can't properly retort with wit and charm.....thats another problem in itself.
Just as with any type of growth, Transition into ERE has not always been comfortable for me. Conversations on this forum, (at least the good ones) sometimes get a little uncomfortable. Change and or doing the "right" thing is not always comfortable as it is often not a mainstream action! Reading and interacting on this forum is not always comfortable! (it is however always truthful and thoughtful) People seek refuge in like minded groups when threatened. I read most of the posts on most every thread of this forum. Groups do form but I don't think they are static.
I like the idea of the forum celebrating successes. I usually agree (camp) with you on the more difficult subject matter FFjeff, but definitely not on nicing conversations down. In my opinion it has a diluting effect that strays away from the original, extreme message
The top message from the blog, for me at least, was always "think for yourself" or "be concious of your decisions." In my mind, this is better than any of the the frugal or how to advice Jacob ever gave.
Also, the intelligence level of Jacob, and the vast majority of others on here, makes this a much more interesting space on the internet than most.
Also, the intelligence level of Jacob, and the vast majority of others on here, makes this a much more interesting space on the internet than most.
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jennypenny
- Posts: 6856
- Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:20 pm
I had all of these ideas that I thought were unrelated. I wanted financial independence. I like self-sufficiency. I hate the consumer-driven culture. I like living in a sustainable way. When I found this blog and forum, it talked about all of those things as if they were all part of the same idea. Jacob articulated an overall philosophy that brought together many of my personal goals.
Now I stay as much for the camaraderie as for the information. It's so nice feel like a part of a community, even if it's a virtual one.
Now I stay as much for the camaraderie as for the information. It's so nice feel like a part of a community, even if it's a virtual one.
I have been working on ER for a long time, but I was missing two important concepts.
1. Reduce expenditures, the more the better.
My strategy was, live well on a little bit less than the average.
2. Learn to invest well.
I was doing the index fund/mutual fund thing in the 457k. I never saw any returns other than a balance. It is boring and hard to know if you are doing the right thing. I am very excited to be receiving dividends for the first time this month. My goal by the end of the year is to pay my house property tax from dividends. I am less than half way there but focused.
There is one other thing, I did not put 1 and 2 together to understand that reducing expenses and saving hard together will shorten your work period of life. I just figured 20 years of saving 15% would work out. Now I know that FI is attainable much more quickly than that.
1. Reduce expenditures, the more the better.
My strategy was, live well on a little bit less than the average.
2. Learn to invest well.
I was doing the index fund/mutual fund thing in the 457k. I never saw any returns other than a balance. It is boring and hard to know if you are doing the right thing. I am very excited to be receiving dividends for the first time this month. My goal by the end of the year is to pay my house property tax from dividends. I am less than half way there but focused.
There is one other thing, I did not put 1 and 2 together to understand that reducing expenses and saving hard together will shorten your work period of life. I just figured 20 years of saving 15% would work out. Now I know that FI is attainable much more quickly than that.
Before discovering ERE I was pretty much in the same camp as @sky. I was spending less than I earned, saving money in retirement account index funds, and paying my house off early with the vague idea that someday doing all this would make me free. Reading Jacob's blog and seeing the math behind how he got out made me realize it was actually possible to achieve financial freedom at a young age. Since then I've become more focused. I'm still doing the same stuff as before, but at a much faster rate. Reading the forums keeps me motivated and trying new things.
I appreciate the intention of this thread. It gave voice to a latent concern of mine that the post-Jacob era was devolving into generational cohorts, with newer people interacting mostly with newer people in successive waves of discovery that recapitulates old threads. Nothing wrong with that per se, but it doesn't inspire me as much.
I don't recall exactly how I stumbled onto the ERE blog, but it was probably from linking out of GRS or TSD, both of which were fine but somewhat tedious and a mismatch for my own life situation.
Like @HSpencer, I was too "old" to be EXTREME, but I appreciated the fact that Jacob was proof of concept. I shared his ideas before I'd read them, but I lacked (and still do to a degree) the courage to live by them. The main thing I draw from the forums is the inspiration to ACT. I don't feel as if I have to justify the validity of ERE as a way of life, but I do need to put my money where my mouth is, so to speak (or write).
I will also echo the sentiment expressed by others that these forums have been populated rather extraordinarily by people who are passionate, intelligent, and opinionated yet very respectful of differing view points. This is a rare find in cyberspace. As an attorney, I love vigorous debate -- perhaps inordinately. But I have a lot of faith in a truth-seeking adversarial system governed by the rule of law. To find civility as well merely adds joy to the process.
I don't recall exactly how I stumbled onto the ERE blog, but it was probably from linking out of GRS or TSD, both of which were fine but somewhat tedious and a mismatch for my own life situation.
Like @HSpencer, I was too "old" to be EXTREME, but I appreciated the fact that Jacob was proof of concept. I shared his ideas before I'd read them, but I lacked (and still do to a degree) the courage to live by them. The main thing I draw from the forums is the inspiration to ACT. I don't feel as if I have to justify the validity of ERE as a way of life, but I do need to put my money where my mouth is, so to speak (or write).
I will also echo the sentiment expressed by others that these forums have been populated rather extraordinarily by people who are passionate, intelligent, and opinionated yet very respectful of differing view points. This is a rare find in cyberspace. As an attorney, I love vigorous debate -- perhaps inordinately. But I have a lot of faith in a truth-seeking adversarial system governed by the rule of law. To find civility as well merely adds joy to the process.
"As an attorney, I love vigorous debate -- perhaps inordinately. But I have a lot of faith in a truth-seeking adversarial system governed by the rule of law"
@Maus
Nice comment. I bet your pretty cool with your witnesses. I once heard that attorneys go to a class to learn not to swallow when they cross examine. I always wondered if that was true?
I think you want the witness to fidget, gulp, feel inferior, and otherwise unsure of themselves. I think attorney-ism must be two thirds this skill.
@Maus
Nice comment. I bet your pretty cool with your witnesses. I once heard that attorneys go to a class to learn not to swallow when they cross examine. I always wondered if that was true?
I think you want the witness to fidget, gulp, feel inferior, and otherwise unsure of themselves. I think attorney-ism must be two thirds this skill.
No, swallowing is not usually an issue for most people. It is one of those things that if you think about it, you will tend to do it more. Like blinking and yawning. Think about those for a few minutes and chances are you will be doing more of them than usual.
I record my students on video -- if you actually see yourself doing something annoying or unhelpful, that will usually cure you of the bad habit pretty quickly.
I hate to be cliche, but these skills are like learning to ride a bike. Once you learn, you won't fall very often. But you are probably not going to win the Tour de France either.
Not that many people take enough time to learn this skill, though, because it requires the willingness to look bad in front of others at first. So there are decidedly fewer decent cross-examiners than bike riders.
Now I'm getting way OT. Sorry about that, folks.
I record my students on video -- if you actually see yourself doing something annoying or unhelpful, that will usually cure you of the bad habit pretty quickly.
I hate to be cliche, but these skills are like learning to ride a bike. Once you learn, you won't fall very often. But you are probably not going to win the Tour de France either.
Not that many people take enough time to learn this skill, though, because it requires the willingness to look bad in front of others at first. So there are decidedly fewer decent cross-examiners than bike riders.
Now I'm getting way OT. Sorry about that, folks.
The light bulb moment for me was when Jacob demonstrated simply that the math for early retirement works. I had previously read Your Money or Your Life, and enjoyed the story, but found various assumptions ridiculous, namely that inflation doesn't exist, and that the ideal asset allocation is 100% thirty year treasury bonds. When Jacob re-told the same cross-over point story with more realistic assumptions, everything clicked.
Here's a quote for my second favorite part of the message: "the more you know, the less you need"
Believe it or not, my third favorite part of the blog was to model life goals using S-curves.
For the year and a half before I read the ERE blog, I was pursuing something like the Tim Ferriss idea of freedom: travel, mini-retirements, and set up a muse / online business / web-based passive income stream for life.
After reading and internalizing the ERE blog, I moved back to the US, got the best 9-5 job I could find, moved to a new city to take that job, and proceeded over the next two years to cut my expenses as much as possible while learning about investing.
Here's a quote for my second favorite part of the message: "the more you know, the less you need"
Believe it or not, my third favorite part of the blog was to model life goals using S-curves.
For the year and a half before I read the ERE blog, I was pursuing something like the Tim Ferriss idea of freedom: travel, mini-retirements, and set up a muse / online business / web-based passive income stream for life.
After reading and internalizing the ERE blog, I moved back to the US, got the best 9-5 job I could find, moved to a new city to take that job, and proceeded over the next two years to cut my expenses as much as possible while learning about investing.