How do you know where to draw the line between being frugal and compromising your standards or principles? For example, I have 2 grocery stores near me. One is a big chain that consistently has the lowest prices by 10-20%. The other grocery store is owned by a local family. The quality of the food is much better, and they have a much larger selection of healthy and/or organic food offerings. They do a lot of fundraising and always contribute to events here in town. In short, they are exactly the kind of business you would want in your town.
As I whittle down our grocery budget for ER, I find myself wondering whether to switch to the chain store to save money. Am I just talking myself into the nicer grocery store under the guise of shopping in a more socially-conscious way?
How can you tell when you are making the right decision by paying more? When does it become just indulging your ideology?
Frugality v. Quality or Principles
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George the original one
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> How can you tell when you are making the right
> decision by paying more?
When you can calculate the true costs of paying less. For a groceries example, one of the local Portland dairies does not use BHT, so buying their milk is demonstrably better than the cheaper chain-store's house brand.
> When does it become just indulging your ideology?
If we're sticking to our principles, then everything is indulging the ideology. Is that wrong?
> decision by paying more?
When you can calculate the true costs of paying less. For a groceries example, one of the local Portland dairies does not use BHT, so buying their milk is demonstrably better than the cheaper chain-store's house brand.
> When does it become just indulging your ideology?
If we're sticking to our principles, then everything is indulging the ideology. Is that wrong?
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jennypenny
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You're right, it's not wrong. I guess sometimes I have trouble hearing my own voice over all of the others.
I was confronted at my boys' school this morning when I returned an item they sent home for me to sell for a fundraiser. She said "you won't spend $25 to help out your kids' school, but I see you shopping at [the expensive grocery store] and buying all that organic stuff." I said I didn't want to spend $25 on something I didn't need when the school would only get $10 anyway. I explained if they needed the $10 I would just give them that. She told me "you just don't get it."
You should have seen the eye rolling when I asked if I could start a litter-free lunch effort at the school this year. She said "oh, you're one of those."
I was confronted at my boys' school this morning when I returned an item they sent home for me to sell for a fundraiser. She said "you won't spend $25 to help out your kids' school, but I see you shopping at [the expensive grocery store] and buying all that organic stuff." I said I didn't want to spend $25 on something I didn't need when the school would only get $10 anyway. I explained if they needed the $10 I would just give them that. She told me "you just don't get it."
You should have seen the eye rolling when I asked if I could start a litter-free lunch effort at the school this year. She said "oh, you're one of those."
George: "When you can calculate the true costs of paying less. For a groceries example, one of the local Portland dairies does not use BHT, so buying their milk is demonstrably better than the cheaper chain-store's house brand."
So, uh... what is the true cost of drinking BHT milk? In $/gallon, please.
Jenny: Re: the fundraiser... I hate those scams. The worst part is, as I understand, they may not be able to accept an outright gift of $10. Instead, you have to buy $100 worth of crap (or whatever) for them to get the $10 kickback. At least, I've heard that's how it is with some organizations.
Re: the grocery store. There are sort of two issues here.
1) Pure economics. If the food at the expensive place is really higher quality such that it actually affects your health, I say go for it. There's no point in retiring early just to die early. Personally, I'm not sure I buy the idea that, e.g., "organic" food has a benefit commensurate with its cost. But that's a judgment call on your end.
2) Ideologically. You want to support the family-run business. Will your support actually make a difference? Does the family-run business have justifiably higher costs, or are they just pocketing your goodwill money? If shopping at the family-run grocery is not supported economically (see point 1), then you can consider at least a portion of the money as a charitable expense (that you don't get to write off). You are paying a premium, over the economic value you receive, in order to better your community. There's nothing wrong with charitable expenses, but it's important they are recognized as such. With charity, there's usually a trade off between giving money now, more money after ERE (when the money has grown), or more time after ERE (when you can volunteer).
Edit: You might consider where your surplus is best spent. Compare, for example, shopping at the chain and giving that extra 20% directly to (whatever).
So, uh... what is the true cost of drinking BHT milk? In $/gallon, please.
Jenny: Re: the fundraiser... I hate those scams. The worst part is, as I understand, they may not be able to accept an outright gift of $10. Instead, you have to buy $100 worth of crap (or whatever) for them to get the $10 kickback. At least, I've heard that's how it is with some organizations.
Re: the grocery store. There are sort of two issues here.
1) Pure economics. If the food at the expensive place is really higher quality such that it actually affects your health, I say go for it. There's no point in retiring early just to die early. Personally, I'm not sure I buy the idea that, e.g., "organic" food has a benefit commensurate with its cost. But that's a judgment call on your end.
2) Ideologically. You want to support the family-run business. Will your support actually make a difference? Does the family-run business have justifiably higher costs, or are they just pocketing your goodwill money? If shopping at the family-run grocery is not supported economically (see point 1), then you can consider at least a portion of the money as a charitable expense (that you don't get to write off). You are paying a premium, over the economic value you receive, in order to better your community. There's nothing wrong with charitable expenses, but it's important they are recognized as such. With charity, there's usually a trade off between giving money now, more money after ERE (when the money has grown), or more time after ERE (when you can volunteer).
Edit: You might consider where your surplus is best spent. Compare, for example, shopping at the chain and giving that extra 20% directly to (whatever).
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jacob
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Also see the Wheaton Eco Scale. Those 1-2 levels above your present level is something you aspire to or is inspired by, those more levels ahead are considered crazy. Those 1-2 levels behind you are somehow perceived lacking in skills or ambition and those which are further behind are downright evil.
Something like this operates in every area: frugality, vegetarianism, sports, etc.
Also see the Wheaton Eco Scale. Those 1-2 levels above your present level is something you aspire to or is inspired by, those more levels ahead are considered crazy. Those 1-2 levels behind you are somehow perceived lacking in skills or ambition and those which are further behind are downright evil.
Something like this operates in every area: frugality, vegetarianism, sports, etc.
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jennypenny
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@dragon--#1 The quality of the fresh food is much, much better. And I don't buy things just because they are organic, so I guess I'm not really one of "those." We do avoid things with antibiotics in them (meat and dairy usually) because my son has CF. I don't buy much processed food so I don't get suckered into things like organic cereal bars. #2 That's harder. I hadn't thought about the charity aspect. I'm really giving them some of my extra money and hoping they will do the right thing with it. I still think they win on point #1 but I have to think about it.
@Jacob--I guess it depends on your setting also. On here I'm pretty low on the ERE scale. In my social circle I'm a God!
@Jacob--I guess it depends on your setting also. On here I'm pretty low on the ERE scale. In my social circle I'm a God!
I don't know how much you can find out about the local store. Maybe you can find out how they pay their employees, and how they treat them? You can probably find out how much the big store pays the employees and how they treat them.
The way you describe them, they sound like "good people", with the fundraising they do etc. It may also be to your own advantage to stay a customer and thus help them stay in your community so that also later you can still buy their food.
The better quality of the food definitely is worth something. If not for your health (and there's no guarantees for your health anyway), then for the joy of eating high quality food. Maybe you'd want to pay 5% or 10% more for something that tastes good versus something that tastes mediocre.
I don't eat meat, because I don't like it. As a side-effect, I know I'm killing less cute chickens and cows (not zero because I own leather shoes, drink milk etc). If I need to buy meat for my boyfriend, I buy the organic version. Even if it's at least 50% more expensive. I know I "lose" money here, but I refuse to buy other meat; I think the suffering is too big to justify my savings.
So, in short, I think everyone has their own values; and it is justifiable to spend some more money to be able to stick to them.
The way you describe them, they sound like "good people", with the fundraising they do etc. It may also be to your own advantage to stay a customer and thus help them stay in your community so that also later you can still buy their food.
The better quality of the food definitely is worth something. If not for your health (and there's no guarantees for your health anyway), then for the joy of eating high quality food. Maybe you'd want to pay 5% or 10% more for something that tastes good versus something that tastes mediocre.
I don't eat meat, because I don't like it. As a side-effect, I know I'm killing less cute chickens and cows (not zero because I own leather shoes, drink milk etc). If I need to buy meat for my boyfriend, I buy the organic version. Even if it's at least 50% more expensive. I know I "lose" money here, but I refuse to buy other meat; I think the suffering is too big to justify my savings.
So, in short, I think everyone has their own values; and it is justifiable to spend some more money to be able to stick to them.
On my 12 mile ride to work I pass by the following.
Aldi's
Bravo Market
Publix
Save-A-Lot
2 Wal-Mart Supercenters w/Food Centers
A Wal-Mart Neighborhood Market
SAMS Club
Winn Dixie
3 different Produce Markets
and a slight jog of about 1000 yards off my path a huge Oriental Market and a Giant Carribean market.
None of them are owned by locals with perhaps the exception of the Bravo which is a Latin market.
Generally I know the prices of everything (Thank You Tightwad Gazette for the idea of a price book!!) and know who carries what cheapest.
However there are a number of things I pay more for because I prefer the taste....I have to enjoy my meals....Like I only buy my rice at the Oriental Market. I don't care for anything other than Thai Jasmine Rice and only two different brands...Three Ladies or Three Elephants. Its all about the flavor and texture.
I pay about 30% more for it than the cheaper varieties...last 50 lb bag was $37 and lasts me quite a while (months). $12 or so dollars more doesn't really mean much over that length of time IMO.
But on the flip side...Bravo has lots and lots of different kinds of spices in anything from little 50 cent celophane bags (vs. $3 or so at the other stores for the same weight) to the restaurant size 1 lb. plus containers as well as having one of the best and least expensive produce sections short of a farmers market...and a 5 block walk from the house to boot!!
I guess its the struggle to find the happy medium between "Live to Eat" and "Eat to Live" and still do it on a reasonable budget.
Aldi's
Bravo Market
Publix
Save-A-Lot
2 Wal-Mart Supercenters w/Food Centers
A Wal-Mart Neighborhood Market
SAMS Club
Winn Dixie
3 different Produce Markets
and a slight jog of about 1000 yards off my path a huge Oriental Market and a Giant Carribean market.
None of them are owned by locals with perhaps the exception of the Bravo which is a Latin market.
Generally I know the prices of everything (Thank You Tightwad Gazette for the idea of a price book!!) and know who carries what cheapest.
However there are a number of things I pay more for because I prefer the taste....I have to enjoy my meals....Like I only buy my rice at the Oriental Market. I don't care for anything other than Thai Jasmine Rice and only two different brands...Three Ladies or Three Elephants. Its all about the flavor and texture.
I pay about 30% more for it than the cheaper varieties...last 50 lb bag was $37 and lasts me quite a while (months). $12 or so dollars more doesn't really mean much over that length of time IMO.
But on the flip side...Bravo has lots and lots of different kinds of spices in anything from little 50 cent celophane bags (vs. $3 or so at the other stores for the same weight) to the restaurant size 1 lb. plus containers as well as having one of the best and least expensive produce sections short of a farmers market...and a 5 block walk from the house to boot!!
I guess its the struggle to find the happy medium between "Live to Eat" and "Eat to Live" and still do it on a reasonable budget.
I certainly wouldn't judge someone else regarding their choice of supermarket or what they buy, thst's their business. The way I shop is avoid that big shop most of the time, only go there when you are doing a once a month shop. The little shop, buy the leeks, the fresh tasty tomatoes , the fresh spinach, silver beet, apples etc. And soup bones, you just can't get them in the big shops. Cheap milk too.
We used to have a fantastic indian store, all sorts of spices, nuts etc, can't wait until it returns.
We all have different dietry needs, I cut right back on milk, dairy and meat, now I'm seriously anaemic.
We used to have a fantastic indian store, all sorts of spices, nuts etc, can't wait until it returns.
We all have different dietry needs, I cut right back on milk, dairy and meat, now I'm seriously anaemic.
I prefer a vehicle that doesn’t hurt Mother Earth. It’s a go-cart, powered by my own sense of self-satisfaction.
Tough call. I question the ability of America to feed 300 million people on organics - from both a land and cost standpoint. I question the negative effects of genetically altered foods. I question the treatment of mass farmed animals. I question the (subconscious?) motives of sanctimonious liberals. I question the (conscious?) motives of aggressive conservatives. People on food stamps rarely shop at organic markets. People on food stamps are overweight with surprising frequency. I question people driving foreign cars with "Buy Local" bumper stickers on them... apparently machinists and welders aren't picturesque enough to warrant their support.
Tough call. I question the ability of America to feed 300 million people on organics - from both a land and cost standpoint. I question the negative effects of genetically altered foods. I question the treatment of mass farmed animals. I question the (subconscious?) motives of sanctimonious liberals. I question the (conscious?) motives of aggressive conservatives. People on food stamps rarely shop at organic markets. People on food stamps are overweight with surprising frequency. I question people driving foreign cars with "Buy Local" bumper stickers on them... apparently machinists and welders aren't picturesque enough to warrant their support.
Can anyone explain to me the concept of a 'price book'? You go around to different stores and write down the prices of the different products you buy. But don't the prices change constantly within each store anyway? How can you keep up and know which store is cheapest for each product?
It sounds like a lot of time spent going to multiple stores. Sounds like it would be cheaper to just buy fewer things at one store, and buy more when there are sales.
It sounds like a lot of time spent going to multiple stores. Sounds like it would be cheaper to just buy fewer things at one store, and buy more when there are sales.
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George the original one
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jennypenny
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re: How to set up a Price Book (this is true for where I live, not sure where you live) This is just a quick and dirty lesson...
*Only list the 25-30 things you buy regularly
*Sales generally repeat every 3 months on staples
*Make note of the month as well as store/price
*I list price per unit (not package) because package sizes vary
*If 6 months goes by and I haven't seen the lowest price come up then I change the lowest price in my price book (I've had to do this a lot lately!)
*Keep a special list of low prices that only occur 1x per year: candy after halloween, baking needs week before Thanksgiving, canned goods in January and July, Frozen foods in March, etc.)
*I don't bother keeping prices on produce anymore because I find buying is season is the best way to spend the least on the freshest items
*If you are brand loyal, you will have to list more items in your book. If you don't care, you can just list "bread $1.29" (which is easier if you can do it--my store always has at least one brand on sale at the standard sale price every week)
*My price book includes a separate section for other things like printer ink, gas, hvac filters, supplements, certain gardening supplies, undergarments, etc. because I can't remember from year to year which store had the cheapest price on something
*Only list the 25-30 things you buy regularly
*Sales generally repeat every 3 months on staples
*Make note of the month as well as store/price
*I list price per unit (not package) because package sizes vary
*If 6 months goes by and I haven't seen the lowest price come up then I change the lowest price in my price book (I've had to do this a lot lately!)
*Keep a special list of low prices that only occur 1x per year: candy after halloween, baking needs week before Thanksgiving, canned goods in January and July, Frozen foods in March, etc.)
*I don't bother keeping prices on produce anymore because I find buying is season is the best way to spend the least on the freshest items
*If you are brand loyal, you will have to list more items in your book. If you don't care, you can just list "bread $1.29" (which is easier if you can do it--my store always has at least one brand on sale at the standard sale price every week)
*My price book includes a separate section for other things like printer ink, gas, hvac filters, supplements, certain gardening supplies, undergarments, etc. because I can't remember from year to year which store had the cheapest price on something
Wally World is now building stores that zap and destroy not only grocery stores, but also the series of "dollar stores" and small local markets. They opened two "test" stores here in two small towns. Wally World will match any price from anyone.
I would like to take a tomato in from my neighbor's garden and tell them I got it for free and see if they would match that.
Shop your favorite stores, the small healthy locals as long as you can. Wally is on the full march to destroying every business with their tactics.
Long time grocery stores here like Marvin's and some of the Harp's have been over taken by Wally Inc. We have a few locals but not that many.
Your going to have to pay more to keep these locals and smalls in operation, and I will gladly do that. In fact, on gasoline, I would rather run out than buy it from Wally.
I hear you. Your saying this guy is anti Wal*Mart! Guess what? Your right!
I would like to take a tomato in from my neighbor's garden and tell them I got it for free and see if they would match that.
Shop your favorite stores, the small healthy locals as long as you can. Wally is on the full march to destroying every business with their tactics.
Long time grocery stores here like Marvin's and some of the Harp's have been over taken by Wally Inc. We have a few locals but not that many.
Your going to have to pay more to keep these locals and smalls in operation, and I will gladly do that. In fact, on gasoline, I would rather run out than buy it from Wally.
I hear you. Your saying this guy is anti Wal*Mart! Guess what? Your right!