We're doomed. What is the answer?

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intellectualpersuit
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We're doomed. What is the answer?

Post by intellectualpersuit » Sat Apr 27, 2019 10:42 pm

I think that the consensus on this forum is that the fate of society is doomed. Doomed in that society as we know it will collapse due to global temperature increase as the primary concern if not something else such as national debt, or nukes, or whatever. If this is the case, then what is the solution other than riding out the storm? It is possible that I have missed a valid solution on other threads. The problem has been established by many people across many platforms but no implementable solution to societies’ trending in a disastrous direction due to instability has been posed that I have seen. The only answer to fix the problem that I have seen is that it is on the individual to change themself by acting sustainably instead of insustainabily. This is a good basis to start from, but what is the best way to achieve this in a large enough number of individuals?

Does the change lay in governmental intervention? It has been established before that government is structured so that change happens slowly, probably too slowly in this case unless someone has an idea to evoke the proper amount. What is the proper rate of change in behavior across society that will lead to a diversion from collapse in the proper amount of time?

I am also interested in predictions of major events or stages of collapse at certain times in the future based on its current state, essentially predictions of future states at future times.

I know that I have probably laid out too vague of questions for optimal response even though I stated that the problem in question may be vaguely stated, but I trust in this communities ability in pursuing such a critical situation. So maybe the answer is to tackle smaller more clearly defined problems, which resulting in an acceptable rate of change.

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unemployable
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Re: We're doomed. What is the answer?

Post by unemployable » Sat Apr 27, 2019 11:14 pm

Screw society; all I care about is myself.

Jean
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Re: We're doomed. What is the answer?

Post by Jean » Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:04 am

for mankind to survive, 10'000 humans are enough, so just do whatever feels right to you (like i you are like me irresistibliy draged in by the forest, buy land and turn it back into a forest.) This should ensure that enough people try diverse strategy to ensure that one works in the future. We ne need to stop trying to free ourself from nature, and be a part of it again. I'm impressed by the diversity of strategies that human have evolved to use. We are doomed because we turn ourselves into a monocrop. Be a seed blown away by the coming storm.

chenda
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Re: We're doomed. What is the answer?

Post by chenda » Sun Apr 28, 2019 5:32 am

Go north.

This map was posted on a thread a few months ago.

Jason
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Re: We're doomed. What is the answer?

Post by Jason » Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:21 am

Like the guy in 1319, I don't have it. Maybe someone in 3019 will stumble upon it.
Last edited by Jason on Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

IlliniDave
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Re: We're doomed. What is the answer?

Post by IlliniDave » Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:29 am

Just my personal opinion but governments are probably the last thing we should put our faith/hope in.

Whoever is around for whatever happens whenever it happens will have to ride it out. In general humans aren't all that great at predicting the future so if contemplating doomsday is high on a person's priority list, seems like strategies that offer the most flexibility would be best.

EdithKeeler
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Re: We're doomed. What is the answer?

Post by EdithKeeler » Sun Apr 28, 2019 8:36 am

I think the answer is to hunker down and ride it out and take steps to protect you and yours. Both the problem and the solution, really, is that we (as a group) generally don’t look much beyond our own and maybe our kids’ lifetimes. Short term (our and probably our kids’ lifetimes) we’re probably ok, or at least can take steps to make sure we’re ok. Longer term, we’ll probably do something to wipe most of us out—mutated measles outbreak, new flu strain, world war 3, nuclear war, zombie apocalypse—and then the people left will make changes.

Really, that’s what’s happened thru history—Romans survived, but the Empire didn’t. Mayans made it—but the Mayan civilization was lost.

I’m a big believer in humans—we suck, but we’re also pretty awesome and ingenious, too.

I just hope we can reset before we wipe out most of the rest of the animals on earth, and before we kill the oceans. But then again, nature is pretty resilient, too.

stand@desk
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Re: We're doomed. What is the answer?

Post by stand@desk » Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:08 am

Just a few comments from my perspective:

We don't live forever. Enjoy your time now instead of worrying about what could/will happen. If that is how you enjoy your time, then keep doing it.

This has always been a topic of discussion. WWII, Ice Ages, Y2K, Mayan Calendar, Harold Camping, Wars, Floods, starvation, air pollution, climate change etc. End Times are near all the time. For individuals it is fact. For the human civilization, we have survivied longer. The Internet and News Media constantly tell us so. To stress us out and make us distract ourselves by buying more stuff maybe?

It isn't that bad to die at some point due to personal health. The goal isn't to live as long as possible but to live as good as you can while you can. My opinion. Neurons can only last 120 years maximum apparently I read the other day. Microplastics are polluting the entire planet constantly. Hackers could take down the banks etc. So? Keep Calm and carry on and again, for individuals we will expire but civilization keeps going on. Are you ultimately more concerned for yourself? (ultimately futile) or for civilization (seems to carry on regardless of what happens-for now). And the earth has had many mass extinctions over time. Perhaps these will continue on and on until all the water evaporates which is supposed to ultimtely happen apparently.

In Summary, we live a short time, human civilization will live longer, the latter likely will ultimately fail anyway no matter what we do as individuals or a civilization. It just may take a longer time but it is probably the end fate. Live the best you can and be glad you are here now!

Jason
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Re: We're doomed. What is the answer?

Post by Jason » Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:08 am

Doomsday prophecy is an attempt to escape one's own personal existence by projecting it onto "inevitable" mass extinction or deterioration. It's a parlor game that started when some unfortunate caveman looked up and cursed the dinosaur flying over his head after realizing it just airmailed a load of prehistoric shit upon his head. "I" feel futile so "everything" is futile. It always involves an enemy, whether its an anti-christ, a specific race, a government, a political figure, an ideology, what have you. The East is the end of the West. The West is the end of the East. Now it seems to be focusing upon the environment. Yes, death is built into the cosmos. It's coming for you, its coming for me, its coming for every asshole just like it came for every asshole currently taking up valuable real estate. It's the same story, written over and over with a new headline. For me personally, it aint worth getting all excited about and running into the woods with a shotgun and a cooler of hot dogs. You end looking like a child running away, only to get hungry and going home for dinner, only to realize no one knew you were gone in the first place. And really, the government? I'm supposed to look at the likes of a turkey necked geezer such as Mitch McConnell or some other elected official getting blown under his desk and say "Yeah, he's the person who's going to save civilization from itself?" Gee whiz, that's just absurd. And what happens when I wake up one morning to see some marauding douchebags breaking up my local Dunkin Donuts under a full moon? I don't know. Probably just go to the McDonald's and figure things out from there.

daylen
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Re: We're doomed. What is the answer?

Post by daylen » Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:16 am

There are several other threads on this somewhere.

We are not sure exactly when, but the time interval to look out for is something like 25-75 years from now. There are many potential triggers (energy, water, food), but it is hard to know what exactly will be the cause due to our inability to measure non-linear effects accurately. The global economy is like a shallow fractal(*) where cities/towns/outposts are nodes and trade routes are edges. Eventually, some underlying resource will become too scarce to sustain the whole, so the whole will undergo a phase change. The phase change will be sort of like an infarction, but with resource supply flows instead of blood. Many of these may happen in a cascading pattern, and people will die on a massive scale. Civilization will be rebooted once again.. just like any organism that is over-populated in their ecology.

Imagine this video is showing the rise of human settlement (but on top of a pre-existing mycelium mat): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3qcSfdFPU4

Also, look into David Fleming's work.

(*) Fractal are networks that are self-similar across scale and space-filling. They appear everywhere.. plants, trees, fungi, cardiovascular systems, nervous systems, economies, and so forth where there is a bounded territory with a precious resource that is being extracted/distributed.
Last edited by daylen on Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

daylen
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Re: We're doomed. What is the answer?

Post by daylen » Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:26 am

There is not really an "answer". Just by being alive you are in some sense a "problem". Solving a problem (climate) with another problem (government) will create three more. We are all just along for the ride, but at least we get to exist in a fascinating way. Our simulation could have been much duller.

chenda
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Re: We're doomed. What is the answer?

Post by chenda » Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:41 am

These sort of existential questions are best dealt with by religion. Though I don't think humanity is doomed and I think it's conceivable we could eventually build a harmonious society where all interests are reconciled.

intellectualpersuit
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Re: We're doomed. What is the answer?

Post by intellectualpersuit » Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:51 am

I accept my death and the death of human kind, but what I am trying to do is think of a way to make our lives better while were alive. I think this is worth doing even if the chance success is low.

David Fleming seems to have the same optimism that I am trying to work off of.

Maybe I'll start a religion then.

daylen
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Re: We're doomed. What is the answer?

Post by daylen » Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:56 am

Is nonlinear dynamics a religion?

EdithKeeler
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Re: We're doomed. What is the answer?

Post by EdithKeeler » Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:03 am

Maybe I'll start a religion then
It worked for L. Ron Hubbard. Sort of.

I think the last thing we need is a new religion. Maybe if we just started paying attention to the tenets of the ones we have, instead of telling people Jesus wants the preacher to have a new plane, or knowing that Jesus was NOT pro child diddling, or Mohammad really wasn’t pro-bombing, and Yahweh would prefer we quit messing with homesteads on others’ lands, and Buddha wasn’t in favor of bombing, either....

I went to church this morning, in fact, and while I was sitting there full of my usual doubts (just call me Thomas....) I was thinking that even if there is no god or Allah or whoever, we’d be so much better off if we just took that one idea—be kind to one another, look out for one another—to heart and applied it. But we always bastardize it into “but what God actually meant was....”

intellectualpersuit
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Re: We're doomed. What is the answer?

Post by intellectualpersuit » Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:23 am

Is nonlinear dynamics a religion?
I say it can be. What would this religion look like?

daylen
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Re: We're doomed. What is the answer?

Post by daylen » Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:26 am

Faith in the human inability to accurately predict nonlinear behavior and reason statistically. Weekly worshipping of mathematical singularities. Yearly confidence fasting.

chenda
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Re: We're doomed. What is the answer?

Post by chenda » Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:41 am

A swami I saw once argued convincingly that within every religion there are 2 key takeways; be a good person and focus on a higher power. Everything else is secondary. Birds can't fly with only one wing...

7Wannabe5
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Re: We're doomed. What is the answer?

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Sun Apr 28, 2019 11:46 am

The Native American scientist, Robin Kimmerer suggests that we need a "religion" that allows us to answer "Yes, very much." to the question "Does nature love me?" This is the way out of believing that our own existence is necessarily part of the problem. When she asks her university students in Botany 101 if they love nature, they almost all reflexively say "Yes.", but they are silenced or baffled when the question is reversed. They can easily make a list of ways in which humans harm nature and try to reduce harm by reducing these behaviors, but they can't think of ways a human could help nature.

Western mythology informs us that we are forever cast out, and our behavior proceeds from this dysfunctional belief. This belief is even somewhat inherent in the philosophy of FIRE, because redemption is only to achieved through efficient performance of just enough toil.

chenda
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Re: We're doomed. What is the answer?

Post by chenda » Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:06 pm

Nature is pretty brutal though. The Zoroastrianism view was that nature was contaminated with evil and suffering, and humans should proactively intervene in nature, such as by irrigation projects to cultivate barren land and ended the process of animal sacrifice. This kinda links to modern ideas as to whether we should intervene in nature to stop animals killing each other and make the vegetarians.

Although Zoroastrianism later developed the idea some animals were evil, like snakes and scorpions, and the good believer was encouraged to kill them. Probably a good idea in a world with antivenin. There is a story of a man being boiled alive in hell for cheating on his wife, but is given special permission to keep one foot outside the pot because he spent his life stamping on evil animals. Must have been cold comfort but it's a funny allogorical story.

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