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Thoughts from a distraught individual

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:05 am
by Sid
I get the feeling that most of the people on this forum are far from the norm (not necessarily good or bad). Reasons for this assertion are: ERE is uncommon and very different than the average ways of life, intelligence here is significantly higher than the norm, and generally rare personalities (intj (common around here) is 1% of population). My question to this group of people who again, I assume is further from ‘normal’ compared to the average group of randomly selected people based on the above, is do you have a hard time connecting with people on a significant level, or find yourself incompatible with almost everybody you know/meet? There are very, very few that I connect with on a significant level. I do not feel that this is related to Dunbar’s number, but more so due to the aforementioned. For those I do not interact with on a significant level, I feel like interacting with them is a near waste, at least more so for me than them.

In a situation of major conflict (vague I know), is it better to take the high road or act out against the injustice? I think in most situations it is better to take the high road, but sometimes it is best to act out against the injustice, sometimes with violence. Or with whatever means necessary to get the point across that the current situation is too terrible to continue and should be altered. Expanding on the implications of the above, I think that sometimes when the violence or otherwise takes place, observers see the one acting out against the injustice as in the wrong if the person is one who is far from the norm because it is hard for the ‘normal’ person to understand where the actor is coming from.

If you are a person who wants to hold only correct beliefs and is willing to expose false beliefs and correct them, do you find it frustrating that many people who see this acted out see it as arrogance or thinking that you think you are always right? Especially when the above characteristics of being far from normal are fulfilled and the observer is close to normal.

I know this ‘normal’ thing seems weird, but that is how I conceptualize this. Whatever you may have to say I welcome, thanks.

Re: Thoughts from a distraught individual

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 3:47 am
by ZAFCorrection
Everyone is wrong most of the time, even if ERE people might be slightly better at having their shit together. It's human nature. You might want to spend some time trying to internalize that before considering how much violence should be used to bring about never-wrong utopia.

Though, I can understand the frustration. As a fellow non-normie, I have not had a full connection with almost anyone, even with people I am theoretically very close with. I will say that spending too much time letting it get you down is probably going to progressively make your alienation even worse. Spend some time trying to develop empathy for other people and understand that being right or optimized is not necessarily the highest good. Maybe the highest good is making paperclips. I've honestly thought about having all my money spent on paperclips once I kick the bucket.

Re: Thoughts from a distraught individual

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 4:59 am
by TopHatFox

paper clips do have a way of holding it together

Re: Thoughts from a distraught individual

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:10 am
by 7Wannabe5
Talking about what you are doing makes it easier to bond with other people than talking about what you believe.

Random Person: What are you up to this weekend?

OP: I am making some pickles.

Random Person: Awesome. I love pickles.

Re: Thoughts from a distraught individual

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:28 am
by stand@desk
Here is a general and 10,000ft view of what I can add to this philosophical thread..

As a fellow Forum member, INTJer, I find that it is rarely worth it to try and correct injustices although for INTJs they will easily get sucked into the idea that this is the right thing to do or worth their time to do. Getting angry as an INTJ has not worked out for me in the past, it's made things worse, so I don't act out anymore. It's a more viable strategty for other types. It's better to stick with your allies and let them assist you in your crusade if you want to pursue it instead of sticking out your neck out too far and getting caught in the crossfire. Obsessing over injustices and basking in the glory of when they get exposed and judged by the authroities is something I think INTJs are destined to do. But I have rarely found much pleasure in directly dealing with them. I think the best course of action is to see where the leverage is and if you decide to work against the leverage on your crusade, you need to understand that the fight may be long and hard and grueling and ultimately will probably not be worth it, but with freedom we have the burden to decide. And so many for whatever reason decide to act against the leverage and really pay for it in the end (gambling, crime, protesting, making bad trades in the market etc). Having said that, being an INTJ is probably being a contrarian by nature, so you need to find ways to be that contrarian where it's worth it to do so, and avoid being that contrarian or whistleblower or whatever when the leverage will not help you.

Re: Thoughts from a distraught individual

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:45 am
by daylen
It really comes down to what you want from the conversation; do you want to only agree or disagree? confirm belief? .. to meet a lifelong friend? .. to learn?

Hyper-focusing on the first three is not likely the best way to connect with an individual. As 7w5 said, talk about what you do and search for topics that both of you have some perspective on. Everyone has some interesting data/adventures/wisdom to share if you look hard enough. Everyone is worth talking to at least once.

Deep connections can happen inside a single topic with a stranger, but I do not think these are what you are referring to. If you mean deep connection as in sharing beliefs, then you are in for disappointment. People only get more complex and idiosyncratic.

Re: Thoughts from a distraught individual

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:56 am
by daylen
Getting people to spew out their life secrets is a skill to be learned and it is fun.

Re: Thoughts from a distraught individual

Posted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 1:53 pm
by ffj
I have been involved with conflict many times in my life, you may recall some of the "discussions" even here on this forum that really turned nasty for all party's involved. I'm looking at you, Charlottesville.

Is it worth it? No.

Nobody gives a shit if you fall on your sword for the sake of what is "right". Many times people won't even believe you are right or won't realize this for many years afterward, or your position might be wrong and you don't realize this or won't for many years. When, and IF you are ever vindicated for your beliefs people will have moved on to other problems. Another issue is that you will make enemies, or at the least people will disassociate from you. And worse, you will be smeared while all of this is occurring, and grow extremely frustrated at the inability for other people to commit to your level of involvement. They won't care. PM me if you want some details on a very negative experience in my life.

The other issue is when one starts to discover "truth", when the layers of the onion keep getting peeled back to the essence of what motivates someone to believe or act the way they do, you are bound to be disappointed. Especially if it is someone or a group you admire. Some people are quite sophisticated in projecting an image.

Violence is a rare answer to any question, so be very careful entertaining that thought. You are vague in describing the issue at hand so I don't have any context here.

My advice is to live your life according to your values and avoid the conflicts where nobody wins.

Re: Thoughts from a distraught individual

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 7:26 am
by jay_munny
Reading something like Letters to a Young Contrarian may be helpful. I'm slightly "abnormal", not particularly intelligent and have serious doubts that I'm an INTJ (rare) personality type lol.

"If you care about the points of agreement and civility, then, you had better be well-equipped with points of argument and combativity, because if you are not then the "center" will be occupied and define without your having helped to decide it, or determine what and where it is." - (p.21)

I, like many people, care and desire agreement and civility. Violence seems counter to those desires. If my actions are to help determine, decide,define and occupy the "center" (normal) then I'll have to choose vigilance over violence.

Can't be insightful then be inspirational. If you can't be either then be indifferent.

Re: Thoughts from a distraught individual

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:06 am
by IlliniDave
To the first question: I have a lot of interests that lie outside ERE and the cluster of topics that hover around it. So finding ways to bond with people who are disinterested or ambivalent about ERE isn't hard. The only place it gets tricky is when it comes to potential SOs.

Regarding conflict: I'm not good at it and "violence or otherwise" isn't in my palette of everyday tools. It would take some serious treading on me to get me to go there. I'm not authorized to police other people's beliefs, even when I disagree with them.

Re: Thoughts from a distraught individual

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:28 am
by Seppia
I think it's absolutely normal to "deeply connect" with very few people.
I can probably count 5-6 people at most and I'm considered to be someone who connects easily.

Not a fan of the violence part

Re: Thoughts from a distraught individual

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:53 am
by daylen
So do you switch the train tracks to run over an individual to save humanity? Do you let a terrorist get away from the scene when you are the only one to stop them (and you know you can)? Do you tell a lie that ends up hurting someone while saving someone else?

Where does justice end and criminality begin? Is being a pacifist just a way to agree with other people (and relieve tension) on moral edge cases?

I bet I could design a situation that would get any so called "pacifist" to use violence (even without it being self-defense). This is coming from someone who has been in one real fight ever, and I didn't start it.

Re: Thoughts from a distraught individual

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:27 am
by jacob
Based on the car model, Fi is the ten-year old (tertiary function) so while justice can be strongly felt, for the INTJ to actually put it into words it has to filter through Te which is hard and frustrating. Hence the temptation to solve morally important questions like vi vs emacs with violence. If this kind of moral judging is particularly strong/troublesome, it might help to keep in mind that there are different ways of judging. Lets turn to the most judgemental enneagram (type 1) for some guidance:
Healthy Levels

Level 1 (At Their Best): Become extraordinarily wise and discerning. By accepting what is, they become transcendentally realistic, knowing the best action to take in each moment. Humane, inspiring, and hopeful: the truth will be heard.

Level 2: Conscientious with strong personal convictions: they have an intense sense of right and wrong, personal religious and moral values. Wish to be rational, reasonable, self-disciplined, mature, moderate in all things.

Level 3: Extremely principled, always want to be fair, objective, and ethical: truth and justice primary values. Sense of responsibility, personal integrity, and of having a higher purpose often make them teachers and witnesses to the truth.

Average Levels

Level 4: Dissatisfied with reality, they become high-minded idealists, feeling that it is up to them to improve everything: crusaders, advocates, critics. Into "causes" and explaining to others how things "ought" to be.

Level 5: Afraid of making a mistake: everything must be consistent with their ideals. Become orderly and well-organized, but impersonal, puritanical, emotionally constricted, rigidly keeping their feelings and impulses in check. Often workaholics—"anal-compulsive," punctual, pedantic, and fastidious.

Level 6: Highly critical both of self and others: picky, judgmental, perfectionistic. Very opinionated about everything: correcting people and badgering them to "do the right thing"—as they see it. Impatient, never satisfied with anything unless it is done according to their prescriptions. Moralizing, scolding, abrasive, and indignantly angry.

Unhealthy Levels

Level 7: Can be highly dogmatic, self-righteous, intolerant, and inflexible. Begin dealing in absolutes: they alone know "The Truth." Everyone else is wrong: very severe in judgments, while rationalizing own actions.

Level 8: Become obsessive about imperfection and the wrongdoing of others, although they may fall into contradictory actions, hypocritically doing the opposite of what they preach.

Level 9: Become condemnatory toward others, punitive and cruel to rid themselves of wrongdoers. Severe depressions, nervous breakdowns, and suicide attempts are likely. Generally corresponds to the Obsessive-Compulsive and Depressive personality disorders.
I don't think this scale directly represents "developmental levels"(*) as much as it illustrates "operational levels". Loneliness, stress, environment, etc. or just a bad day or week or maybe even month or year can cause some regression. It's good to have a roadmap for where one is/can go. The Forer effect seems pretty strong here, but it should still be possible to do an honest self-assessment resulting in something like "I'm mostly 3 but sometimes I definitely feel like 5 and I even have a few issues where I might be an 8 but I can recognize that when it happens" or similar.

(*) Although growing up, there is some general upward trend. It's just that instantaneous operational levels can be highly volatile and very dependent on life trajectory and situations.

Re: Thoughts from a distraught individual

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:23 pm
by prognastat
Well expecting agreement on ERE is going to severely limit your pool of friends so either you are going to have to accept that you have severely limited your potential pool of friends or be more lenient on this topic.

I myself would probably try to avoid starting a deep friendship with someone that's a complete spendthrift and identifies strongly through what they consume, exception may be if we happen to have an extremely strong connection on multiple other fronts and we are able to avoid financial topics/issues. However, if someone was reasonable with their finances and we could both accept that the other has differing things they want financially and that this is ok then I would be more than happy with this.

Then being introverted is generally going to make it harder to build a connection since you are probably not seeking out connection as much as someone who is extroverted. This is also going to limit your potential for friendships unless you are cognizant of this and minimizing it.

I do tend to limit the amount of people I go in to serious discussions about beliefs, morals, ethics and truth with though as very few people seem capable of separating themselves from their beliefs. Most people seem to think they are their beliefs and as such an attack on a belief is an attack on them. I used to think this wasn't the case and I'm sure this was a cause for isolation when I was younger. It does make me feel less close to someone if I can't do this with them though without it ruining the relationship.

Re: Thoughts from a distraught individual

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:42 pm
by jacob
This thread actually reminds me a bit of THF's most recent dating thread (I would give the same advice here as I did there). Whether it's finding the ideal partner or the ideal friend, I think the problem has a bit of a Kegan-structure to it. Basically, if you're looking for unicorns and become frustrated that they don't appear to exist, it's because the problem is phrased the wrong way.

I grant that it would be wonderful if everybody were totally relatable mindmates, etc. but that's just not the case. I also get that it's likely not worth it to fake a new identity in order to ingratiate oneself with others (at least I don't think so). This leaves trying to focus on building relationships despite one's differences. It's not a rule that people have to be identical.

It's certainly not something I've figured out yet. It is A LOT easier to do the more people are on the same page. I appear to be an entirely different person when I'm meeting fellow ERE people than I am when there's less selection bias (like work: same talents, not same interest or values), or no selection bias like with neighbors or family.

Re: Thoughts from a distraught individual

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:51 pm
by Riggerjack
Much wisdom above.

As to the urge to violence, I have felt this, strongly, my whole life. But I am middle aged, and things change. Hopefully, we learn a bit along the way.

What I have learned, is that most of what I believed was right in previous years, wasn't. When I have struck out in anger, I have never been right in hindsight. And controlling that righteous anger is my primary personal challenge, though violence has been under control for decades.

To the OP, I have a personal challenge for you, for your own good, and it will be fun.

Watch Patriot on Netflix. It's a truly brilliant comedy. At the point where you have a hard time watching it anymore, (because comedy and tragedy are two sides of the same coin) imagine what that story would look like, if the protagonist didn't believe in a greater good. How would the protagonist live his life under those circumstances. How would he feel about himself and his circumstances, and the world as a whole, without that drive to serve a greater good?

My personal opinion is that there has never been a greater good, it is just the way to rationalize doing what we know to be evil. And I am over skilled in rationalization.

If you really know better, if you really know the better way, violence wouldn't be necessary. People will choose a better option on their own, so if they don't choose your path, maybe this is a time to look at where you are and where you want to be, and if this path really leads there.

The urge to violence is a sign of frustration, not smarts. And I don't get frustrated because Someone Else is stupid, though it often feels like that should be the case.

Get that part straight as soon as possible, the longer you go down that road, the harder it is to stop.

Re: Thoughts from a distraught individual

Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:40 pm
by JamesR
Sid wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:05 am
In a situation of major conflict (vague I know), is it better to take the high road or act out against the injustice?
This doesn't quite make sense since taking the high road usually means doing the most moral thing, which could actually be acting out against injustice. But it's unlikely you're 100% moral so you have to deal with shades of grey anyways.

Re: Thoughts from a distraught individual

Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:05 am
by Campitor

It is unlikely that a court will justify the initiation of violence that isn't an immediate and proportional response to a physical threat. A court is unlikely to sanction violence that was used in a non-threatening conversation. An appropriate response to a physical threat will not shield you from a civil lawsuit.

The person you choose to fight may be a better fighter than you or choose to respond asymmetrically; he/she may pull out a gun, knife, pepper spray, or taser. And how are you going to persuade someone if you get beaten into submission? Will a defeat discredit your verbal argument? If not, how does a physical victory validate it?

Violence will become your de facto modus operandi once you start down that road. If you have to resort to violence to change minds then you've already lost.

Re: Thoughts from a distraught individual

Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:51 am
by prognastat
Also in relation to violence it's important to keep in mind that there is no "safe" level of violence. Sure punching someone is less likely to seriously injure/kill someone than say a knife or gun, but it is still very much a possibility either directly or indirectly by them falling and hitting their head etc.

Also the reason our current political system somewhat works is because we don't go around randomly dishing out violence over disagreements.