Patreon users

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jacob
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Patreon users

Post by jacob » Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:47 pm

Does anyone use it? (I know a few of you do.)

I've been thinking about signing up to contribute to a few of my favorite youtube channels following the adpocalypse (=youtube's algos randomly cutting most or all of their content contributors' income(*)) and youtube deciding to only monetize the most popular/consumerist channels meaning puppies and unboxing vids. I see the end-game already: Just yet another form of cable TV :x :-P

(*) It happened to me too with adSense back in the day, so I sympathize.

Some have previously suggested that I sign up to be on the receiving end. However, I feel like it creates an obligation to deliver and establishes some kind of provider/client relationship which I'm not interested it. I don't want to do that to others. OTOH, if they're asking, maybe they already figured out where they stand on this issue.

For those who are using it, has it been the impression that it's helped up? In my experience (my now defunct tip-jar) only a tiny minority of "subscribers" actually contribute anything, so ... I wonder how much of a solution this is?

Add: Here are some random google results:
http://www.thegreenwolf.com/so-heres-wh ... months-in/
http://neil-clarke.com/patreon-three-months/
https://theoutline.com/post/2571/no-one ... i=l3ckamq3 (implies rockstar income distributions)

JamesR
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Re: Patreon users

Post by JamesR » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:13 pm

I've paid some people through Patreon before. It's super easy to subscribe and unsubscribe etc, I recommend it.

Honestly, I actually wish more people were on Patreon, or that there was a better way to support writers online.

Lately I've been reading a lot of wuxia (chinese martial arts) web novels, translated into english. Many of these translators have Patreon accounts, which is great to help get my favorite web novels translated.

Before, I used to read Harry Potter Fanfiction, there's some great works out there that never got finished, would be nice to support those writers to finish their works.

It's a bit of a winners take all world however. I would rather support the little content producers that are just getting started, than the ones that already have many subscribers.

The Old Man
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Re: Patreon users

Post by The Old Man » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:12 am

I use Patreon to support YouTube creators. I think it works well.
jacob wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:47 pm
For those who are using it, has it been the impression that it's helped up? In my experience (my now defunct tip-jar) only a tiny minority of "subscribers" actually contribute anything, so ... I wonder how much of a solution this is?
A 'tiny minority' of a large number is still a large amount. Patreon income is largely dependent on the size of the subscriber base. For small creators I would say that Patrons (and their Patreon income) provide encouragement for them to continue to improve and grow their business.

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Chris
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Re: Patreon users

Post by Chris » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:43 am

I pledge to a YouTube creator. He lives in a rural area, and started a Patreon to cover the cost of his microwave Internet access. His monthly patrons covered this in short order, multiple times over. Now he's posting videos faster than I can watch them (-:

Once you pledge to a creator, you can see how much they are taking in... I have found the amounts to be rather surprising (on the high end).

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luxagraf
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Re: Patreon users

Post by luxagraf » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:21 pm

Could just be my limited observations, but it seems like the people doing best on patreon are making movies. I haven't seen many writers pushing it that hard. I also heard something about a recent change in how things work that seemed to piss off a lot of people. I never like tying my income streams to third party payment systems. I wish there were something just as easy for users, but without the centralized parent company. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to exist and given the complexities, probably isn't going to.

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luxagraf
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Re: Patreon users

Post by luxagraf » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:27 pm

Actually there does seem to be a decent open source/non-profit alternative: https://liberapay.com/

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fuyu
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Re: Patreon users

Post by fuyu » Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:25 pm

I use it for my translations of Chinese novels. Here's a history of my earnings as of today if it would be helpful, usually the amount for the current month will increase until last week of the month. But, there's over a thousand translators and probably less than 10 translation groups earn over $500 per month. To be fair, most people who translate asian novels, translate because they like those novels and want to share them with other people, so they don't make Patreon accounts. My favorite translators, who translate more unique stories, even say they don't want money when people ask in the comments.

Image

Image
(On the second chart, there's missing deleted pledges, but it's mostly right.)

I think Patreon for translators of Chinese novels is very different in that the majority of pledged amounts is made up by a few people who pledge higher amounts instead of lots of people pledging $1 to $5. Here's the % for my pledges. The $80 reward tier is only made up of 13 out of 72 patrons. And its 72 patrons out of 4.5k of readers. I've only had the Patreon account for a few months, so I'm not sure how helpful this limited data is.

Image

For the people that pledge $2 to $10, most of them are also pledging to other Patreon accounts. For the ones that pledge $20 to $80, most of them are only pledging to my account.
Last edited by fuyu on Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

brighteye
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Re: Patreon users

Post by brighteye » Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:59 am

I pledge to one YouTube creator (only $2), to show my appreciation for his work. I have (re)watched some of his videos 10-20 times. The last time I checked he made about $1'600 per month from 600 patreons. His channel has 150'000 subscribers.

jennypenny
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Re: Patreon users

Post by jennypenny » Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:24 am

Sam Harris quit Patreon yesterday over their liberal use of the banhammer (pun intended). I wonder if he's a big enough persona to get them to walk back their stance. I doubt it, which sucks for smaller contributors trying to make a living.

jacob
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Re: Patreon users

Post by jacob » Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:06 am

Whether webservice providers should [be allowed to] ban users that fall outside their Overton window is almost its own giant debate. I suppose it comes down to whether a) it's a protected group (punting the decision to the law); or b) the service is considered a utility (like water or electricity). Technically, this forum is a similar service and I'd be pretty pissed if I didn't have a say in who gets to write on my walls so to speak. As a private person, I can ignore users, but as a public person/company/owner any and all users also reflect on me insofar I'm perceived to have a choice in the matter of who is allowed to use my services. Any social media platform has this issue.

Given the unresolved dynamics (see a and b above) of these situations, the obvious way would be to establish a new similar site that favors an illiberal use of the banhammer (pun intended as well) instead. It looks like this is what Jordan Peterson plans to do.

The Old Man
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Re: Patreon users

Post by The Old Man » Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:16 am

https://patreonhq.com/hate-speech-on-pa ... 026e52c2cf
Patreon is doubling down. Subscribestar became an alternative, but then PayPal and Stripe stopped their support and in consequence Subscribestar has suspended accepting new subscribers. Since the "intellectual darkweb" is now woke, an alternative to include backoffice payment processor support has a real possibility to be developed. Sam Harris was in the top 20. Even if Patreon reverses course, it will not change anything. People will stay off Patreon and support alternatives. People like Sam Harris will fuel the development of a Patreon alternative.

jennypenny
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Re: Patreon users

Post by jennypenny » Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:21 am

Given the predominance of electronic banking and commerce, I think banking transactions/services should be considered utilities now. I don't know whether that would affect niche sites like Patreon, but it should definitely apply to providers like Visa, MasterCard, Paypal, etc. It disturbs me that some banks and credit cards have refused to do business with legitimate businesses that are seen as conservative-leaning (I mean like Smith & Wesson, not Gavin McInness). Are we going to end up with separate banks for conservatives and progressives? Having a unified monetary system is part of what defines a nation.

jacob
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Re: Patreon users

Post by jacob » Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:53 am

The trend is more in the direction of [big/established] sites accepting an Overton window of, say, 4(*) Wheaton levels to each side of the profitable center and kicking out those who cross the line from acceptable or maybe radical to unthinkable as seen from the average user/customer. This creates a market for niche providers catering to those "unthinkable" extremes that "polite society" doesn't allow.

(*) Arbitrary scale.

So you'll have big sites accepting 95% of all content and then a few smaller sites (perhaps one on each side) picking up the rejects. Which is how it is now. I'd be supremely surprised to see platforms split down the middle 50/50(**), e.g. with one from Wheaton 0(+) to +infinity and the other from Wheaton -infinity and up to 0. The main form of change does not occur in splits but in terms of moving the Overton window (shifting/widening/narrowing). Such shifts affect individuals on the fringes a lot more than individuals around the center.

(+) Arbitrary center.

(**) For example, you wouldn't split the pedagogical approach in a school class that way either with half the the students in the dumb class and the other half in the smart class. Instead the split would be that almost everybody attend the standard average class with the dumbest going into the remedial class and the smartest going into advanced whatever.

prognastat
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Re: Patreon users

Post by prognastat » Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:11 am

I'd say it gets real slippery when you say you have a right to ban me for something I do or say somewhere else which is what Patreon is doing, what's worse is this isn't what their TOS says and is in direct opposition to comments the CEO made during a previous incident yet this is the rule they are using.

If they want to change this rule they need to update their TOS and give people warnings that this is the new rule going forward so people can make an informed decision whether they want to stay with Patreon. Instead they're selectively enforcing an unwritten rule when they feel like it.

And multiple this isn't the first time that an alternative has had the payment processors pull out as there was another one a while back called Makersupport I believe that was cut off from payment processing too. It gets real dicey when you can't even make competitors. The only way forward seems to be to make a payment processor that doesn't use it's clout to control it's customer's as long as the law is being followed. This is quite a bit more complex than setting up an alternative to Patreon though.

It'll be interesting to see what the solution Peterson is working that will avoid it ending up like Makersupport and Subscribestar.

Jean
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Re: Patreon users

Post by Jean » Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:20 am

There is a contract between patreon and its users. I don't know if this contract includes the right for patreon to stop this contract without notice.

prognastat
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Re: Patreon users

Post by prognastat » Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:51 am

Yeah and that contract states Patreon can terminate your account for misbehaving on their website, not elsewhere and it's CEO has previously made statements to the same effect.

It seems they want their cake and to eat it too. Don't write the TOS in a way that makes it clear you can be removed for certain things, because that would drive people away yet still use these reasons to ban people you disagree with.

They are free to include this in the rules, but I know it would mean many people like me would refuse to use it on principle if this were the case.I suspect this is why it wasn't included in the first place.

The Old Man
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Re: Patreon users

Post by The Old Man » Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:14 pm

https://youtu.be/akJf2oz5JOM

The collusive actions of Patreon, PayPal, and Stripe to shutdown SubscribeStar is worthy of an investigation by the Federal Trade Commission for potential anticompetive behavior under current Antitrust Law so says YouTuber Law. What is more worrisome is that the actions of PayPal/Stripe could have been orchestrated by Visa/MasterCard. An investigation is warranted and would get to the bottom of the matter.

thegreatvoid
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Re: Patreon users

Post by thegreatvoid » Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:09 pm

free speech
Last edited by thegreatvoid on Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

Jean
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Re: Patreon users

Post by Jean » Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:22 pm

I've been posting some very not pc content on this forum.

daylen
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Re: Patreon users

Post by daylen » Wed Dec 19, 2018 9:58 pm

I hope I am not being too PC, but I am not even sure what that means. :?

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