Investing Process - or how to think about investing

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jacob
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Re: Investing Process - or how to think about investing

Post by jacob »

Smashter wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:29 pm
- The absolute prodigies in his business are only right 60% of the time.
- He spends a million dollars on data every year that no regular person would ever have access to, which he deemed "unfair"
I should also mention that academics rarely have access(*) to this data and therefore have to assume that the market figures out the right prices. The EMH is an extremely convenient assumption for academic research. It's the job of traders to assume it's it doesn't hold and then proceed to make it hold.

(*) Closing prices are universally available and practically free since decades. Intraday, not so much. Level2 data, not at all, and still super expensive.

As for numbers ... so mathematically, WLOG, you only need 50%+ correctness to make money. Below 50% no money can be made. How the monies are made depends on the distribution of the outcomes. Lets first suppose the distribution of outcomes is uniform, that is, you can't really tell whether one trade is better than another. In such a case, you can make money on a 50.1% correct model by spinning and hedging. That is, trading as rapidly as possible while ensuring you remain fully hedged at all times (or as much as possible). This is in the main how most algorithms work. They're just a few epsilon smarter than "random" (aka 50%) but they capitalize on that by trading a lot. A typical algo trades more in a day than humans do in a decade.

If you were a human, you can do the same, but you could also diversify (aka poor man's hedging). If you're winning on 60% of your positions and losing on 40%, you put equal amounts in each position. You're now beating the market (alpha) while cutting risk through diversification. This would be a very typical way to go about it.

Now, if you actually have a distribution of the outcomes, that is, you have more faith in some trades than others. Now you can start swinging for the fences. Normally mutual funds are constrained to diversify ... but if you look at so-called "conviction" buys from managers, you'll see they do better than random. If you were a private investor or representing private money (not public) you'd be smart or/and brave to concentrate on your conviction buys. Insofar your conviction is correct, then you can do much better.

Add: I should also say that those 60% would vary not necessarily by positions but possibly by years or even eras. There are many value-investors that have thrown in the towel because with CAPE10>30+, they've been wrong for years now. Conversely, momentum indexers have been right for almost a decade now and can seemingly do nothing wrong. Often you need to have not only the right talents but also have them at the right time.

SavingWithBabies
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Re: Investing Process - or how to think about investing

Post by SavingWithBabies »

@IlliniDave I should have footnoted my post but my experience in active investing so far has been okay-ish and I only tried to actively invest a small amount of our savings. So I put active investment on the backburner until I've read the books recommended by Jacob (and have more time). I'd rather invest my time/effort into side businesses as I feel like those have better risk-reward. Almost all of our investments are in mutual funds for better or worse. But I'm still curious which is I read this thread.
Last edited by SavingWithBabies on Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

daylen
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Re: Investing Process - or how to think about investing

Post by daylen »

@SavingWithBabies The problem is that the whole economy is severely overvalued right now due to our ideological obsession with technological advancement.

No worries.. Elon will save us all! :lol:

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Re: Investing Process - or how to think about investing

Post by IlliniDave »

SavingWithBabies wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:01 pm
@IlliniDave I should have footnoted my post but my experience in active investing so far has been okay-ish and I only tried to actively invest a small amount of our savings. So I put active investment on the backburner until I've read the books recommended by Jacob (and have more time). I'd rather invest my time/effort into side businesses as I feel like those have better risk-reward. Almost all of our investments are in mutual funds for better or worse. But I'm still curious which is I read this thread.
Mine's actually been good if you count trying to pick active-managed mutual funds and some contrarian market-timing moves (both in my younger years) as "active investing". But coming out ahead versus "the market" for a decade or so is not enough to distinguish skill (or some sort of indescribable intuition like that mentioned in the hedge fund anecdote above) from luck. When I'm retired I probably will continue to have some play money where I break all my rules, but it is essentially the money where a typical person of my means might take a series of luxury cruise trips or otherwise "enjoy". However, what I believe would give me the best odds of topping the market is in the buy/hold family of strategies rather than trading or playing with derivatives. And spending serious $$$ every year for data is out of the question. It will involve holding individual stocks though, which will be a big break from tradition for me. I don't want to have to touch or pay attention to it more than once a year, which does limit the universe of possibilities I consider. And even if I lose every penny my lifestyle shouldn't be affected, which means I won't have to contend with amped-up emotion clouding my judgement.

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Re: Investing Process - or how to think about investing

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jacob wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:50 pm
Now, if you actually have a distribution of the outcomes, that is, you have more faith in some trades than others. Now you can start swinging for the fences. Normally mutual funds are constrained to diversify ... but if you look at so-called "conviction" buys from managers, you'll see they do better than random. If you were a private investor or representing private money (not public) you'd be smart or/and brave to concentrate on your conviction buys. Insofar your conviction is correct, then you can do much better.
Agree. Good stuff to consider when using active management.

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Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Investing Process - or how to think about investing

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

jacob wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:50 pm

Add: I should also say that those 60% would vary not necessarily by positions but possibly by years or even eras. There are many value-investors that have thrown in the towel because with CAPE10>30+, they've been wrong for years now. Conversely, momentum indexers have been right for almost a decade now and can seemingly do nothing wrong. Often you need to have not only the right talents but also have them at the right time.
I have read of fund managers returning cash to investors.

So do the old Ben Graham basket of net-net stocks and similar value strategies no longer work, or is it just harder to find bargains? I would think value investing is still viable, but perhaps just not compared to how FAANG stock investors are doing? And if the momentum indexers are winning today, does that not mean the value investors might win again tomorrow?

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Re: Investing Process - or how to think about investing

Post by jacob »

@MI - Apparently, it's near impossible to find deep value these days. According to the people who do value investing (I don't), the Graham deep value screen has been empty or near empty for a few years now. Of course if you look at the regular market, some stuff certainly is more overvalued than other stuff, but there's not much of anything undervalued. Not really surprising when the market mean valuation is 2x+ historical norms.

Mean-reversion is not a guaranteed thing insofar the distribution changes [permanently]. New era arguments, etc. You can imagine how it's pretty hard for prices to decline into value territory when people who sell [supply] stocks arguing they're overvalued are being met with people who buy [demand] stocks arguing that price doesn't matter because stocks always go up [in the long run].---Especially considering the former are exciting the market (for cash) and the latter are probably over 50% of the market now. (Last number I have is from 2016 and at that point passive or price-insensitive investors comprised 42% of the market having grown from 10% or so just a handful of years earlier.)

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Re: Investing Process - or how to think about investing

Post by frommi »

I do deep value with a part of my portfolio and while opportunities in the US are rare there are still some good netnets in other parts of the world. But even in the US i was able to build a larger position in a netnet at 20% below net cash levels and at 50% of NCAV (so the classic 50 cent on the dollar). That was a stock from puerto rico shortly after the big storm there, roughly 3 months ago. Its already up 30%, so i would argue that deep value has always worked and will always work, you just have to be willing to work hard to find these situations.
And right now it is easy to find value in REIT`s, i found a hand full of them trading below liquidation value (which is similar to the NCAV approach). And when you expand to the shorting side you feel like in paradise right now, lots of opportunity and lots of people afraid to do it. ( But i must admit this area is not for everyone. :) )

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Re: Investing Process - or how to think about investing

Post by IlliniDave »

Mister Imperceptible wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:44 pm

So do the old Ben Graham basket of net-net stocks and similar value strategies no longer work, or is it just harder to find bargains? I would think value investing is still viable, but perhaps just not compared to how FAANG stock investors are doing? And if the momentum indexers are winning today, does that not mean the value investors might win again tomorrow?
I think the so-called value premium is one of those things that tends to work on multi-decade cycles. In other words there are long periods of time in the historical record where value underperforms growth and blend overall, as well as similar periods where the converse is true. So odds are it is not gone forever, though right now does not seem like a great time to shoot for relatively short-term profits from a value strategy. It is not guaranteed (nothing is) but I think we'll see valuations return to at least post-GAAP norms at some point. That may not provide opportunities like the authors of the 1930s-1950s wrote about, yet there's always some stock out there which will grow the most in the next 25 years, and it just might reside on the value side of the continuum once we go through the next turbulent shakeout.

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Re: Investing Process - or how to think about investing

Post by NPV »

Farm_or wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:01 am
Way back in my day trading days, I used to follow insider trading. (The legal type.) With the advent of internet, computers, and the timely information, I thought that was a sure thing. Just do what the CFO or CEO does.

There were subscriptions for better timely information, but I simply used their price as the indicator. If it was still good to buy or sell based on the insider action at their price vs market.

Long story short? Didn't work. There were simply too many untold reasons for insider executive buying and selling. Life happens to them too. And you could never discern the timelines that they had in mind.
I wonder how this works for following / mimicking the trades of people with impressive track records (the Buffets and Soroses of the world - or pick your favorite investment guru). Has anyone tried this? What are some pros and cons?

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Re: Investing Process - or how to think about investing

Post by Seppia »

jacob wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:15 pm
(Last number I have is from 2016 and at that point passive or price-insensitive investors comprised 42% of the market having grown from 10% or so just a handful of years earlier.)
This doesn't seem strange or unusual though.
There are always many "asset X always goes up so I will hodl and never sell" popping up after asset X has gone up in value for a relatively long time with no interruptions.

I am very cuorius to see what happens to the storms of "passive" indexers once the market goes down 30+% in a short time (I have an idea).

Buy regularly and never sell diversified stocks is a time proven winning formula that is very simple to implement, but not easy at all.

I am cuorius to see how I will react. I went through the financial crisis but the amount of money I had invested was so small compared to what I have now that it is really hard to extrapolate.
I did behave "correctly" at the time (kept purchasing even more aggressively as things were going downhill), and I am always excited every time there is a stock market drop, so I'm confident, but not certain.

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Re: Investing Process - or how to think about investing

Post by IlliniDave »

NPV wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 3:53 am
I wonder how this works for following / mimicking the trades of people with impressive track records (the Buffets and Soroses of the world - or pick your favorite investment guru). Has anyone tried this? What are some pros and cons?
I haven't tried this literally, but considering Buffet recommends investors of the mom/pop ilk just buy index funds and hold them, I coincidentally come pretty close to following his advice.

I'm a firm believer that a person should invest in a manner that dovetails with their life overall: where they are on their financial journey, their future needs and goals, their temperament, etc. How multi-billionaire octogenarians cast about to make even more money probably does not overlap much with what is prudent for me. But I must admit it would be fun to know to apply general relativity and quantum mechanics to portfolio management and have it work.

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Re: Investing Process - or how to think about investing

Post by IlliniDave »

Seppia wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 5:24 am
jacob wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:15 pm
(Last number I have is from 2016 and at that point passive or price-insensitive investors comprised 42% of the market having grown from 10% or so just a handful of years earlier.)
I am very cuorius to see what happens to the storms of "passive" indexers once the market goes down 30+% in a short time (I have an idea).
The faint of heart will already be selling and part of what drives that big of a drop.

I also think it is important to recognize that people who invest in index funds do not all ascribe to buy/hold strategies. I'd guess only a minority of them do--and as you point out, only a fraction of those will have the nerve to stick with it next time a generous dollop hits the fan.

When you count noses, most investors are of the price insensitive ilk in that they are participants in workplace retirement plans or IRAs or similar. They sequester money at regular time intervals and consider it a win the money didn't end up going to Amazon.com. When I was in that boat I was lucky to have paid so little attention to things that many years later I found a small stack of unopened annual statements from my 401k (dating from a time before one could just log online and check on things). Nowadays with most everyone overdosing on information every moment they have one hand free while we're told on a daily basis we're a hair's breadth from financial ruin/Armageddon, I think what is out there in record numbers is not so much passive investors as itchy trigger fingers. So because Joe Employee buys index funds in his 401k because that what is offered, and Bob Employee buys some Hot Ones active fund in his 401k because that's what it offers, doesn't mean there is a fundamental difference between Joe and Bob, nor between them and Mike Selfemployed who picks his own portfolio in an IRA, nor in investors of record in mid-2007, late-1999, or any number of similar junctures in the days prior to Bogle hatching his little folly.

NPV
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Re: Investing Process - or how to think about investing

Post by NPV »

On one hand it seems a common theme that people have different risk appetite and different investment objectives. On the other hand, doesn't everyone just want to make the most money while taking the least risk? Buffett and Munger do not gamble with their decabillions taking a lot of risk just because they can - they have not had many losses or big drawdowns. So it does feel to me that this focus on different investment objectives often reflects the professional investment advisor industry trying to justify its fees rather than the objective needs of investors.

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Seppia
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Re: Investing Process - or how to think about investing

Post by Seppia »

@Dave I wholeheartedly agree with you.

SPY is regularly at the top of the daily trading volume and has a very short average holding period. So much for a "passive" instrument.

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Re: Investing Process - or how to think about investing

Post by IlliniDave »

Don't know about the veracity of this , but these guys have what appears to be a fair take on the degree to which index funds ruin the world and kill puppy dogs. Saw it over on bh today.

https://www.weareworldquant.com/media/1 ... ing-v6.pdf


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