Anti-Index Fund Literature

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suomalainen
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Re: Anti-Index Fund Literature

Post by suomalainen »

I don't know in which thread this belongs, but this seems like as good a one as any. A recent article in the Financial Times, Have we seen a peak in passive investing for the US? has this to say. First, a nice, succinct way to frame the debate over passive vs active:
The debate between active and passive investing is caught between two polar extreme cases, both of which are beyond mathematical doubt.

The first case is that whatever active managers do, an index of the market will do better than the average active manager. This is because in the current world of institutionalised asset management, the sum of all managed funds grows ever closer to the sum of the market. In the 1970s, when managed active funds were a smaller part of the market, it was possible for most of them to beat the market. Now, the triumph of index funds grows ever more assured. They represent the average of all active funds — but with lower fees.

A second mathematical necessity is that we cannot have all-passive management. No shares would change hands. Attempts to use markets to allocate capital well would collapse. The stock market would cease to be a market. 

Neither proposition is contestable. It makes sense for any given investor to use passive funds and reduce the fees paid to the investment industry; but passive management can go too far.

The debate often degenerates into a rather sterile back and forth between the safety of two unarguably correct positions, like a baseline rally in tennis.
And then, an argument for the potential of (and need for further study of) "peak passivity":
There are far more indices than stocks, and so each stock is a member of many different indices. Using the Bloomberg database, Mr Deluard came up with a number of index memberships for all the 3,000 largest US stocks by market cap. There is a strong correlation between size and index popularity, as bigger stocks are in more indices.

After controlling for the effect of size, he looked at the relationship between the number of index memberships, and valuation compared to earnings, book value and dividends. In the case of book value, the relationship is clear; the more indices of which you are a member, the higher the valuation you achieve on the market. This looks like a passive distortion. The relationship is weaker with other metrics, and the evidence is not conclusive — but it is very suggestive.

When Mr Deluard looked at returns rather than valuations, there was a clear relationship over five years; the more index memberships, the higher returns. But in 2017, even as money flooded into passive funds, the relationship inverted, and stocks least loved by index providers performed better than the rest: 

This might just mean that peak passive had been reached, and that active managers who bought stocks that were undervalued because they were unloved by indices did well.

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Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Anti-Index Fund Literature

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

suomalainen wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:37 pm
In the meantime, prior to acquiring any sort of measurable investment skill, one has to put one's cash into some asset class, so maybe a scale looks like this:

1 - Savings account
2 - CDs
3 - Knowing about and choosing asset classes and indexing in that asset class
4 - Researching active managers in various asset classes
5 - Researching single names in various asset classes
6 - Fine tuning portfolio allocations
7 - Put it all in gold! (Ha!)
It’s funny Sou. Here we are several months later, I essentially followed this path and yet, given the current environment, ended up not too far from step 7 :lol:

Your more recent post echoes Dr. Fisker’s original one. When I decide to get in the water I will go small cap, and go for value.

trfie
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Re: Anti-Index Fund Literature

Post by trfie »

P_K wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:14 pm
@jacob

This has got to be approaching climate change in terms of a misconception/lack of understanding you’re tiring of refuting. I have to laugh every time someone says “If professionals can’t beat the market better than average, do you really think you can!?” Has anyone saying this ever worked with any “professionals” in any field, ever? I can’t imagine they have. Because my experience has taught me that the answer is “Yes,” and, also, “Duh.” The other equally common “argument” has also got to be getting old: “Well if you’re so good why don’t you open up a hedge fund and get rich??” Never mind that investing $500k or $1M is categorically different than 100M, than 10B. Never mind that starting a hedge fund requires marketing, hiring, lawyer-ing, in short business running that is also categorically different than just handling your own investments. But no, if you could REALLY beat the market you’d have started a fund and made billions so obviously you’re lying and it’s not possible. QED.
This is a really bad argument. In the market you are going up against collective wisdom. So of course the saying will not work for any professionals in any other field - one competes against individuals in other fields.

trfie
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Re: Anti-Index Fund Literature

Post by trfie »

suomalainen wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:38 pm
10% chance of beating the market means a 90% chance of...not...Totally unrelatedly, there's a funny statistic that something like 90% of people believe they are above average.
It's true, and I don't find it funny.

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Bankai
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Re: Anti-Index Fund Literature

Post by Bankai »

This argument that 90% of individual investors underperform the market is suspiciously similar to the argument that 90% of businesses fail within the first few years.

suomalainen
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Re: Anti-Index Fund Literature

Post by suomalainen »

@bankai presumably that figure had some sort of backup, but I didn't go check the source @jacob pointed to. If interested:
jacob wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:01 pm
Any professional in any field would like you to believe that their skill requires especially divine talents, etc. For investing, it's not the "vast majority" it's about 90% ... and that's out of the total population [sample] size. That means that about 10% of amateurs consistently beat the market (links in the FAQ on the blog),

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Bankai
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Re: Anti-Index Fund Literature

Post by Bankai »

Thanks, suo, looking through the FAQ I found this gem:
Q: But with your degree you could earn so much more money…
A: Indeed, and if you increased the frequency of your breathing, you could gulp up so much more oxygen.
Here's well worth a read 'Does Passive Outperform?' article linked by jacob in FAQ:

http://www.retailinvestor.org/activeVSpassive.html

arcyallen
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Re: Anti-Index Fund Literature

Post by arcyallen »

I can't remember if this was posted here, but it's an excellent report published yearly by Dalbar about investor behavior and performance:

https://www.qidllc.com/wp-content/uploa ... Report.pdf

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