Has anyone been through the process of writing a prenup or wishing they had?

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wood
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Re: Has anyone been through the process of writing a prenup or wishing they had?

Post by wood »

cmonkey wrote: I think if the thought of a prenup comes to your head before you get married, you probably shouldn't even be getting married. It implies that there is a level of distrust between the two parties, even if its just a little bit.
It doesn't have to be about distrust, but being humble enough to admit that one cannot predict future events that can have an effect on ones marriage. And whether one should marry or not has little to do with the question of prenup in a marriage.

My parents got married and had me. They truly believed their marriage would last forever (I mean, who doesn't?) Should they therefore never get a prenup? They ended up divorcing and it got very messy. Did they both wish they had signed a prenup? Yes. Does this happen to many couples every day? Yes. Can it be avoided with a prenup? Yes.

With your logic no one should get married then. They all believe they will defy statistics, yet some are doomed and sometimes neither party can be blamed. Prenups can help avoid a lot of mess for many. The cost of a prenup is very low. I don't intend to burn down my house, but I still have an insurance.

I was once in a car in Turkey. Upon putting my seatbelt, the driver got offended. He thought I didn't trust him as a driver. I found that attitude to be a bit arrogant.

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Ego
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Re: Has anyone been through the process of writing a prenup or wishing they had?

Post by Ego »

wood wrote:
cmonkey wrote: I think if the thought of a prenup comes to your head before you get married, you probably shouldn't even be getting married. It implies that there is a level of distrust between the two parties, even if its just a little bit.
It doesn't have to be about distrust, but being humble enough to admit that one cannot predict future events that can have an effect on ones marriage. And whether one should marry or not has little to do with the question of prenup in a marriage.
Actually whether one should marry has a lot to do with prenups.

If You Want a Prenup You Don't Want Marriage
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/20 ... t-marriage

Marriage is about establishing a common life together, about putting someone else ahead of yourself, and sharing the things that mean the most to you, including your money. And, paradoxically, if you take this other-centered approach to marriage, you’re not only less likely to divorce, but also to enjoy a happier relationship.

My research suggests that couples who embrace a generous orientation toward their marriage, as well as those who take a dim view of divorce, are significantly more likely to be happy in their marriages. A National Center for Family and Marriage Research study finds that couples who share joint bank accounts are less likely to get divorced. In fact, married couples who do not pool their income are 145 percent more likely to end up in divorce court, compared to couples who share a bank account.

BRUTE
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Re: Has anyone been through the process of writing a prenup or wishing they had?

Post by BRUTE »

EdithKeeler wrote:Actually, come to think of it, at this point in my life, there's probably no way I'd get married.... Live with someone yes, but I don't see much point in marriage for myself.
nail, meet hammer.

why would any humans still get married?

akratic
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Re: Has anyone been through the process of writing a prenup or wishing they had?

Post by akratic »

@Riggerjack, that's such a cool suggestion to agree ahead of time that before litigation can be an option there will be mediation without representation followed by arbitration without representation. Thanks!

EdithKeeler
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Re: Has anyone been through the process of writing a prenup or wishing they had?

Post by EdithKeeler »

why would any humans still get married?
I think when kids are involved, marriage is generally a good idea. Not that unmarried people can't be good parents, etc.and plenty certainly are, it's just that I think it makes some things less confusing for the kids, especially when they're small ("why is my last name different? Teddy in my class has the same last name as both his parents," is just the beginning), it confers certain legal things that CAN be dealt with outside of marriage, but easier with the piece of paper (child support is probably a little easier to sort out), things like that. Not that I believe someone should get married just to have kids, or to stay in a crappy relationship just because you have kids.

I'm not opposed to marriage generally, it's just that I've never been married, and now at the age of 51, with no kids, my own money, and plus I've been terribly independent my whole life and done my own thing forever, so I'd probably make a terrible mate at this point.

My parents had an absolutely terrible marriage and an even uglier divorce--and post divorce. You know they say people are like "oil and water?" That's relatively innocuous and those substances just don't mix well together. My parents were like ammonia and bleach--two substances somewhat caustic on their own, mixing together to create lethal vapors that affected everyone around them. I know their relationship significantly colored my views on coupling up.

I never had kids. I realized after watching my mom that while being a single mom is certainly DO-able, it's not necessarily OPTIMAL, for her or the kids. (Of course, staying in a shitty marriage is even worse, and while I do tend to believe that the 2 parent household tends to be generally better for kids, it's certainly not when it's a household full of upheaval and drama because of a bad marriage. Better to end it than "stay for the sake of the kids.")

I dunno. I guess I'm an iconoclast for myself, but I do see the value of marriage to society as a whole. Maybe I'm just a 1950's housewife in my heart of hearts. (No, wait: weren't they all addicted to valium?)

FBeyer
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Re: Has anyone been through the process of writing a prenup or wishing they had?

Post by FBeyer »

BRUTE wrote:why would any humans still get married?
Immense tax benefits, insurance benefits, welfare, lower taxes on investments unless both parties are heavily invested, possibility of child custody for the father in case the couple breaks up...

In my current country of residence, the reasons for marrying are very much financial, at which point the idea of a prenup simply solidifies the concept of marriage as an investment opportunity with very low downside.

Dragline
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Re: Has anyone been through the process of writing a prenup or wishing they had?

Post by Dragline »

Augustus wrote:
Your original proposal of dividing based on assets as you enter into the marriage is also unfair to her. Neither of you knows who will contribute or take the most in the future. One bad move could have you costing both of you 7/8 of your net worth, for example a health problem where you could no longer work, a disability, etc. I have no idea what a completely fair agreement would be, but trying to limit the unfairness of the law should be the motivating factor.
What you are talking about here -- an agreement to divide future assets accumulated during the marriage -- is usually called a "post-nuptial" agreement and is usually unenforceable. This should really be filed in the category of "reasons not to get married" and "know what you are signing up for."

akratic
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Re: Has anyone been through the process of writing a prenup or wishing they had?

Post by akratic »

I think you misunderstood my proposal, Augustus. We get back what we brought in and then split everything created after the marriage 50/50. This is exactly the default option with no prenup in some states, just not the state we happen to live in.

The 7/8 stuff was trying to figure out what happens if we divorce with less money than we started the marriage, but that case is as extraordinarily unlikely as divorce. (And likely this even favors her, for example if we got swindled out of 2x of premarital assets and had contributed equally from them it would otherwise have dropped us from 7x/1x to 6x/0x.)

In your case it sounds like most of the assets were created after the marriage not before.

Dragline
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Re: Has anyone been through the process of writing a prenup or wishing they had?

Post by Dragline »

EdithKeeler wrote:
why would any humans still get married?
I'm not opposed to marriage generally, it's just that I've never been married, and now at the age of 51, with no kids, my own money, and plus I've been terribly independent my whole life and done my own thing forever, so I'd probably make a terrible mate at this point.
You'll be one of those older women with paramours who are thirty years her junior. Like Norma Desmond in "Sunset Boulevard", but maybe not quite as crazy. ;)

A woman I know from work dated/lived with a man for 20+ years and then they decided to get married when she retired -- they are both in their 60s and have some money, so neither is really dependent on the other. They did it largely for financial reasons -- social security benefits, etc. and to make sure their retirement home would pass to the other without going through probate. Both have grown children from previous marriages that are not dependent on them.

To me, this makes a lot of sense. If you recognize that marriage is more about legalities than romance (love is not required, but financial commitment is), from a financial perspective its something that makes more sense to do nearer to the end of life than near the beginning.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Has anyone been through the process of writing a prenup or wishing they had?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

The problem with looking at divorce rate as a measure of success of marriage is that it does not measure the proportion of the population that is either miserably married, or happy-although-married. I can't think of another realm in which people are likely to invest their life-energy that is more prone to sunk-cost-fallacy. That is not to say that there are not very happy marriages. There are.

If you look at some of the circumstances surrounding the statistics, or you have heard enough tales of divorce, it becomes pretty evident that the institution or contract of marriage in our culture exists somewhere in the realm between robust and fragile, because divorces almost always occur at or shortly after junctures of change such as:

1) Engaging in sex
2) Living/Working together
3) End of infatuation/limerence phase
4) Parenthood
5) Growing chasm in level of "success" or "attractiveness" between partners as they mature
6) Crisis/Trauma
7) Major philosophical change such as religious conversion of one partner
8) Empty or emptying nest
9) Menopause and/or male equivalent
10) Retirement

So, any marriage entered into under circumstances where many of these possibilities for change have already been precluded will be more likely to prove successful. For instance, in the olden days when premarital sex was precluded, a small but significant number of marriages either failed or became immediately miserable when major sexual incompatibility was revealed on honeymoon. Of course, not every possibility can be considered. For instance, the divorce rate after one partner becomes blind or wins the lottery is huge. IMO, the best and the worst thing about marriage, is that you will tend towards rising and sinking in your individual functioning in slightly out-of-sync tandem. I will be honest and admit that the reason I was the one who bailed on both my marriage and my "marriage" was that in my judgment my partners had become or were becoming irredeemably lower in their overall functioning than me. However, this wasn't really clear to me except in retrospect. I truly believed that I was trying to make my marriage work, but I was out of there like a greased goose on ice as soon as my youngest child seemed to have achieved maturity (XNTJ female 16) IOW, what I had been doing was lending my ex some of my functioning/life-energy, propping him up, so that he could continue to fulfill "father of our children" role. We both cried as we were separating, but then a few days later I was so happy I was literally dancing around my living room. Of course, I felt rather guilty for feeling happy, but it was like this huge sodden weight had been finally lifted off my back. OTOH, my ex completely collapsed in his functioning after a few months on his own, and I was left to deal with all the remaining mess, work and responsibility, but I still consider my decision to divorce, after 19 years of marriage, as one of the hardest, but best, of my adult life.

Anyways, I kind of worry about you kids and your separate-and-equal theory of marriage. It's like you are settling for a very good hip-hop dance partnership rather than a pas de deux or a tango, and thereby leaving yourselves very vulnerable to dissolve due to midlife affair. It's like you are setting yourselves up to be two countries with similar GDP who produce the same goods and services, so there is no impetus for trade, or no complementary power dynamic.

One of the branches of relationship theory asserts the premise that in the moment that you engage in sex with anybody, you are at the same level of power as your partner. For instance, if you get roaring drunk and end up in bed with a very inappropriate, unattractive partner, it was the case that your alcohol consumption lowered your level of power or status. If you consider "sexual relationship" to be defined as broadly as possible to include all of the possible human draws towards forming or motivations in maintaining a dyad (inclusive of the obvious draw to form a dyad in order to broaden or create a tribe), then I believe that what you really want to consider when you are considering (as opposed to falling, leaping or slumping into) marriage is whether your prospective partner is somebody who is able, and likely to continue to be able, to offer you a positive and complementary challenge that will tend towards maintaining strong power dynamic and clear benefit in trade, and whether you are somebody who knows how to respond to a positive challenge, sometimes inclusive of the ability to re-frame a negative challenge as positive.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Has anyone been through the process of writing a prenup or wishing they had?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Augustus: I might not be able to explain this very well, but you are really going to have to work through and transcend your current notion of what is fair or equitable in marriage or divorce, or the likelihood that you will eventually end up divorced will be rather high. I hear this sort of gripe over and over again from middle-aged divorced men I date, and what it comes down to is that anytime you are feeling resentful about unfairness, this is usually indicative of an inability or lack of desire to exert authority (enforce contract) within the context of the relationship or acknowledge and fully accept that the terms of your contract have changed. A woman is often surprised and overwhelmed by the change that occurs when she becomes a mother. For instance, I wouldn't say that it was "unfair" to expect a woman to stick to her prior contract and return to work 6 weeks after giving birth, and continue to chip in 50/50 financially, but I would say that it was a rather naive assumption. I also think that it is a rather naive assumption to think that having children at all is something that your partner might not change his or her mind about. Of all the circumstances that might cause an ex-wife to exhibit homicidal or financially retributive behavior, I think any variation on the theme of the male influencing the female to preclude or put off having children until he is secure/successful in his career/resource-asset base, and then leaving her and having children with a younger female is one of the most likely.

BRUTE
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Re: Has anyone been through the process of writing a prenup or wishing they had?

Post by BRUTE »

what brute sees as responses to his question is: the reason humans get married are financial. brute thinks the whole "if a human thinks about prenup he/she isn't really in love and shouldn't get married" is a line of cow dung.

marriages have always been mainly financial agreements. every 7th grader knows that "love" lasts about 1.3 months. the whole idea that marriage is this romantic institution has been instilled in humans by Disney, and only since maybe the 50s.

brute thinks taking an objective look at it and thinking about marriage as a investment makes a lot more sense. and in that view, a prenup makes a lot of sense.

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GandK
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Re: Has anyone been through the process of writing a prenup or wishing they had?

Post by GandK »

@BRUTE, you're very cynical. :)

I'm in love. 10+ years into marriage. I know what a good marriage looks like, and it doesn't look like an LLC. While I do admit to being a little too romantic (that Alain de Botton talk that @Dragline posted really hit home... great stuff), my spouse is practical to the point of being impractical. And I assure you that neither one of us married primarily to pool our resources. That was a nifty side benefit. Priority One was securing one another’s company until death while selfishly preventing others from doing the same.

Could we have accomplished this without marriage? Perhaps. But (leaving aside our shared faith and its requirements, which of course we wouldn't) why jump through hoops to not-marry when marriage meets our needs and desires?

7Wannabe5
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Re: Has anyone been through the process of writing a prenup or wishing they had?

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@GandK: I am going to mostly agree with you, but also maybe up the cynicism to an even higher level. A simple model of how people vary from pure rational function might divide the realm of "irrational" function into the three divisions of Spiritual/Romantic/Sentimental. Therefore, the institution of marriage is supported and promoted by a variety of other institutions such as the Catholic Church/Disney/Manufacture-of-Olde-Cottage-Picket-Fence. So, for instance, if I objectively observe my own tendencies, I would say that it is somewhat likely that I will find myself married or "married" again, because although I am not very religious, I lapse a bit into the romantic, and a good deal into the sentimental at times. I named my ideal lifestyle the Adventure Cottage Library and the "Cottage" is where I store my tendency towards sentimentality. I joke about trading my aging supply of sexual capital for expensive dinners and gifts, but this is partially me trying to be dismal-tough so none of these puppy-eyed old dogs will take advantage of my weak sentimentality and occupy my "cottage" before being thoroughly vetted. One of the problems I have is that I am 80% a very good mixer, and 20% off the curve, so finding my next boyfriend is almost always almost effortless, and my current polygamy-default BF noted that I would probably "win" a random-wife-swap reality show based on happiness level of new husband after few weeks. This is just due to the fact that due to temperament/talent/training, I am very good or excellent at most of the "skills" conventionally associated with girlfriend/wife if generally imagined as a "job" or "role" rather than within context of specific relationship. But, the 20% of me that is off-the-curve, has been picking up and discarding men like Paris Hilton at a shoe store, mostly on the basis of "too boring/risk-averse/out-of-shape" for the "Adventure" part of my ideal lifestyle, or "not up to speed" in the Library part of my ideal lifestyle. If I had some sort of fear about something like "dying alone" or some sort of strong visualization that would require a Grandpa to eventually be installed in my Grandma cottage along with the Polish chickens and pumpkin patch, then I might be more willing to compromise in the other realms of my ideal, but this is not the case. I recently picked up an obviously auto-biographical series of short stories written by a single woman with a good deal in common with me, including locale and the type of men she was dating, except that she was obsessed with the longing to be half of a couple again. I don't know why, but I have almost never felt less of that longing than I do at this juncture in my life. IOW, my sentimental longing for a "home/family" is moderate, my sex drive is high as ever (sigh), but my ability to feel like I am "in love" or would like to be "in love" is like the pilot light on some decrepit old campstove. Might spark up for a moment, but doesn't last long enough to make a pot of coffee.

EdithKeeler
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Re: Has anyone been through the process of writing a prenup or wishing they had?

Post by EdithKeeler »

Dragline wrote:
You'll be one of those older women with paramours who are thirty years her junior. Like Norma Desmond in "Sunset Boulevard", but maybe not quite as crazy. ;)
Ha! "From your lips to God's ears." Seriously, I think I'd have to amass a LOT more money for that scenario!!

BRUTE
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Re: Has anyone been through the process of writing a prenup or wishing they had?

Post by BRUTE »

EdithKeeler wrote:Ha! "From your lips to God's ears." Seriously, I think I'd have to amass a LOT more money for that scenario!!
it's all relative. millenials are all poor, hasn't EdithKeeler heard?

vezkor
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Re: Has anyone been through the process of writing a prenup or wishing they had?

Post by vezkor »

GandK wrote:... Priority One was securing one another’s company until death while selfishly preventing others from doing the same.

Could we have accomplished this without marriage? Perhaps. But (leaving aside our shared faith and its requirements, which of course we wouldn't) why jump through hoops to not-marry when marriage meets our needs and desires?
Well put! I feel the same way with my wife. Granted, we've only been married all of two months but I truly feel and think I want to spend the rest of my life with her companionship rather than without it.

BRUTE
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Re: Has anyone been through the process of writing a prenup or wishing they had?

Post by BRUTE »

just out of curiosity, how proficient are humans typically after 2 months in any other skill/area of life?

radamfi
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Re: Has anyone been through the process of writing a prenup or wishing they had?

Post by radamfi »

GandK wrote:@BRUTE, you're very cynical. :)

I'm in love. 10+ years into marriage. I know what a good marriage looks like, and it doesn't look like an LLC. While I do admit to being a little too romantic (that Alain de Botton talk that @Dragline posted really hit home... great stuff), my spouse is practical to the point of being impractical. And I assure you that neither one of us married primarily to pool our resources. That was a nifty side benefit. Priority One was securing one another’s company until death while selfishly preventing others from doing the same.

Could we have accomplished this without marriage? Perhaps. But (leaving aside our shared faith and its requirements, which of course we wouldn't) why jump through hoops to not-marry when marriage meets our needs and desires?
Biology says you aren't "in love". "In love" refers to the very strong chemistry that affects your brain at the start of a relationship. Scientists have shown that this heightened state of euphoria lasts around a couple of years. Some people are disappointed at this point and try to find someone else in order to get the heady feelings again. Other people don't get so disillusioned and these are the people who are best placed for a lifetime with one person.

Marriage does not prevent others interfering with the relationship or the relationship ending. The mere fact that divorce exists means there is a get out. In countries where divorce is difficult or illegal, people simply separate. Conversely, some people who are in long term relationships but not married don't have the courage to break up so feel compelled to stay together despite being unmarried.

Scott 2
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Re: Has anyone been through the process of writing a prenup or wishing they had?

Post by Scott 2 »

The prenup spells out an exit strategy in detail, making it much easier to leave during hard times. Whether this is good or bad depends on the couple.

I think the planning exercise going into a marriage is worthwhile - ensure you are starting on the same page. My wife and I did this, but due to cost did not move forward with agreement.

In retrospect, as the higher earning spouse, I should have paid to make expectations clear then. I am paying much more now.

Our incomes have diverged over the years. Even with mostly separate accounts, there are a few money fights that have happened, that could have been avoided. Mostly stemming from the same theme - it we live a lifestyle both can afford, should the higher earner pay a higher percentage of costs? The resolution we reached is certainly not what I intended from the outset.

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