Brexit

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vexed87
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Location: Yorkshire, UK

Re: Brexit

Post by vexed87 »

@radamfi
The evidence is on the remain side, you might be an exception but there is evidence the strongest correlation for voting remain was intelligence. It's not surprising Cambridge voted remain but Peterborough voted leave.
Then you must agree that it's not a great leap to assume that the majority of intelligent people are also the beneficiaries of the prospering subsections of economy, thanks to neoliberal policies. Not everyone gets to be a winner, but those with more intelligence would probably find themselves in skilled work and not feel the effects of the EU policy quite as much. Think about how many would intelligently vote against their economic interests. They do say 'It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it'. I think it's pretty fitting in this context. I have several pro-EU friends who openly admitted some of my arguments were convincing, but they would likely suffer in employment prospects if there was a leave outcome.

Also, Intelligence falls on a bell curve, half are above average and half below. Sadly though, a day will come when being more intelligent than the first half won't help your prospects in a faltering economy wholly dependent on foreign imports. Nor will it help you if pitch forks arrive at the door because there's a revolution due to increased social inequity. Do you choose to adapt now, or delay to sometime in the near future? You must agree that intelligence has nothing to do with political opinion? Or are you saying that the left are more intelligent than the right?

I have a lot of intelligent friends who were pro-brexit, but more that we're remain. But I must say, a lot of the intelligent people still had arguments backed up only with ignorance or gut feelings, the problem with democracy is that we reduce political arguments down to opinion, most are not nearly sufficiently informed to even have a meaningful debate on the topic of the EU, therefore I should imagine even the intelligent vote doesn't matter much, as often they are as ignorant as the un-intelligent arguments, the former just sound better. I don't think I could ever devote the time to delve into all the complexities of arguments for and against the EU. I went with what I felt was the moral decision, as opposed to how I would benefit from further neoliberal policy.
Also if you think we are heading towards some socialist nirvana you are going to be disappointed, did you not notice the group lobbying hardest for leave were from the right.
I don't believe in a socialist utopia, I'm a realist, but I know eco-socialism is easier to implement in a localised economy that is not hell bent on privatising everything and exporting all of the negative costs on the commons. Reducing capitals flows in and out of a system is the easiest way to form a smaller closed loop economy. Gigantism, and super centralised economies make sense in system with unlimited energy, and no consequences to unending growth and consumption, but we don't live in that system. We live on earth.
We will shift our economic model away from Europe and towards the US, those same people are itching to undo the environmental protections we inherited from the EU. You should have listened harder to what people like Jacob Rees-Mogg and Douglas Carswell were saying.
I have no doubt's that the right wish to relax red tape on the environment, but the EU was only paying lip service to the ecology problem anyway. E.g. https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... s-official

As for the shift to the US (and the rest of the world), indeed this was the logical step, temporarily our imports will come from further afield, but at increasing cost, this may eventually trigger some change in the way goods are produced and consumed.
Also, we aren't going to suddenly become self-sufficient in food, we haven't been for two hundred years. There are too many people and not enough fertile land.
We better get started find a solution sooner rather than later then.

Also could you can get a citation for this part:
There are too many people and not enough fertile land.
if this assumption is based on typical industrial agriculture production methods, I can see why you arrived here. The status quo of agriculture and therefore the reasoning behind what is possible, and what is not, is very myopic. We'll need to change our practices, if we apply permaculture principles to our agri-production methods, we can probably do a lot better in terms of yield/acre. Also, lots of untapped land. The thing about humans is they can produce resources as well as destroy them, arable land and fertile soil included, i.e. we can make more of it. Of course, don't expect to be harvesting your crops by the tractor load. It's going to look very different. I appreciate this sounds far fetched and eco-topia like. But it's actually possible, we are just so shuttered by the status quo that most won't even stop to think about the possibilities. Think plato's cave.
Last edited by vexed87 on Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:38 am, edited 7 times in total.

vexed87
Posts: 1490
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2015 8:02 am
Location: Yorkshire, UK

Re: Brexit

Post by vexed87 »

Edit: I expanded on some of the arguments above (several times) :lol: .

ducknalddon
Posts: 249
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 5:55 am

Re: Brexit

Post by ducknalddon »

@vexed87 Nobody voted for brexit on the basis of a shift to permaculture, as much as I like the idea on an individual basis the UK taking it up at scale is as likely as the whole country adopting ERE.

Once we leave we are going to be so desperate for trade deals we will start accepting imports from countries with much laxer regulation around the environment. The result is going to be pretty much the opposite of what you are hoping for, we won't stop trading with the rest of the world and quite rightly so.

vexed87
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Location: Yorkshire, UK

Re: Brexit

Post by vexed87 »

@duck, that's a straw man. Nobody said a vote for brexit was a vote for permaculture! Permaculture is a potential mid to long term solution among many possible paths for covering a domestic agricultural deficit should international trade take a turn for the worst. I don't expect EU imports to drop to 0% even with sizeable import tarrifs.

ducknalddon
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Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 5:55 am

Re: Brexit

Post by ducknalddon »

Nobody said a vote for brexit was a vote for permaculture!
That seemed to be your message, let's leave the EU because it will lead to an economic collapse so we can all head back to the land. I think I understand people uptight about immigration more than that.

vexed87
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Location: Yorkshire, UK

Re: Brexit

Post by vexed87 »

No it's more about abandoning the paradigm of growth at any cost, social, economic or environmental. EU in its present form is part of the problem, and not the solution.

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Bankai
Posts: 737
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:28 am

Re: Brexit

Post by Bankai »

Have anyone started prepping yet?

What about stockpiling food?

And currency hedging? Chances are £ will nose-dive (and the stock market will go up as a result) if no deal.

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jennypenny
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Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:20 pm
Location: Stepford USA

Re: Brexit

Post by jennypenny »

For those who haven't seen it yet (it's short but funny): Burger King Brexit

chenda
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Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2011 1:17 pm

Re: Brexit

Post by chenda »

@Bankai - yes I started to build up surplus before the last Brexit day(s!) although I've slacken off after the 6 month extension.

The bottom line is the we can't Brexit and the whole project has collapsed under the weight of its own contradictions and delusions.

Jason
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Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:37 am

Re: Brexit

Post by Jason »

I know very little about Brexit except that I bought the initial stock market dip as I figured Downton Abbey would have a greater impact on the world economy than England leaving the European Union and the most intelligent English person I ever met who happened to be the most intelligent person I ever met period was pro-Brexit. But damn, what a cluster. I can only imagine the permutations of "Brexit May or May Not Happen" headlines the country has had to suffer through.

radamfi
Posts: 125
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:46 pm

Re: Brexit

Post by radamfi »

Jason wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 8:20 am
England leaving the European Union
Does that mean Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland aren't leaving the EU?

Jason
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Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:37 am

Re: Brexit

Post by Jason »

I really don't want to address this because I know so little, but in the initial vote, Wales voted to leave but Scotland, NI to stay. The biggest consensus was Scotland wanting to stay. But I have so little understanding of this, you would need to verify. It's interesting but I haven't had the time to fully grasp. And now that Theresa May has resigned, I have no idea where its headed. There seem to be some English people here.

tonyedgecombe
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Re: Brexit

Post by tonyedgecombe »

radamfi wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 4:08 pm
Does that mean Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland aren't leaving the EU?
No, it doesn’t mean that. At the moment the UK as a whole is leaving the EU later in the year. Although it’s likely that will be extended again once we have a new Prime minister.

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