Early Retirement Extreme Forums

@everyone: ahem...ahem...which 'off-topic-track' are we taking next?

"To get back on track, one should try to have an amicable divorce and settle things outside the court rooms. "
Hooray for AlexOliver. That is the total summation of the point I was trying to make with this now 42 post thread.

My first wife and I did a DIY divorce. The paperwork wasn't hard, I basically found a copy online and adjusted it for our needs. We didn't have many assets at the time, but we split them evenly without too much pain. Mostly it was - you take your car and debt, I'll take mine, and we split the proceeds from the house sale 50/50. We didn't have kids, which obviously would complicate things. I still remember the judge asking us to take the stand and "testify" to our divorce, I didn't realize that would actually happen.

Just read that Jeff Bezos is getting divorced... not even being the richest man on earth, will prevent your wife from leaving you.

You don't become the richest man on earth without making sacrifices. The nature of the sacrifices we choose matter as much as the goals we attain.

JoeNCA wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 02, 2011 1:20 am

Perhaps another important factor is the marriage itself - unless one can absolutely be certain of conditions of lasting marriage, it's probably best not to marry.
Life is easier and cheaper to live as a single person.
A casual approach to marriage may end up in real misery for everyone involved, both sides of the family included.
Once kids are born, the marriage is forever.

Super agree. It's possible to have a long-term relationship, celebration, and life together without the legal framework. I suppose one of the benefits is that marriages are harder to call off than a gf/bf arrangement (the former being a legal proceeding and the latter a 'see you later'), but uh, that's becoming less and less the case as the years go by.

Living together long term in an unmarried state may not shield your assets if you decide to go your separate ways. The laws in your state matter in this regard.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_partnership

thegreatvoid wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:33 am

Just read that Jeff Bezos is getting divorced... not even being the richest man on earth, will prevent your wife from leaving you.

I thank all those who have gone before and, with their sacrifice, shown us that getting married is now pointless and generally without hope.

I think the problem with marrying (not marriage) is that there's no entry moat. If people were required to demonstrate emotional maturity, financial stability, and some mastery of the complexity of relationships, the number of short term divorces would go way down. However, rarely is this the case. The Catholic Church apparently have some pre-marriage consulting but from what I've heard about it, that's a very low bar to pass. Those countries where marriages are arranged at least have significant amounts of mature input to the process compared to the average [young] person. In other countries, any idiot can get married---just as easily as they can get pregnant---and they do.

Take a look at this: https://econstudentlog.wordpress.com/20 ... orce-data/

FWIW, I think any marriage that lasts longer than 10 years is a success. People can grow apart and if so divorce is a better idea. However, if I may be so judgy, getting divorced much earlier than that indicates poor/immature/undeveloped decision making ability. It's a failure to appreciate/understand that marriage is a long-term "investment".

From what I've seen on the forum and elsewhere, humans go through a few stages, which if we take an honest introspective look at it, go something like this:

First, the scoring stage, where it's all about getting laid or hooking up. I think this describes the majority of people under 20. PUA gaming, etc. all strive to maximize quantity here. Unfortunately, the prevalence of internet advice means that many get stuck here. You have gurus who have scored dozens of people but never manage to have a serious relationship. As an older person it's a sad thing to watch but I think I would have been jealous when I was 19.

Add: Thanks to the internet, there's also a stage zero for those who never even got started and think all roads pass through stage one. These are the bitter ones going their own way, etc. Stage zero can easily lead to digging oneself into an increasingly deeper hole. Hint: Stage one can be completely skipped but it might require a complete attitude/karma transplant.

Second, the dating stage, where it seems to be about getting regularly and consistently laid. Recognized by people presenting "shopping lists" of what their ideal partner should look and act like. Search terms tend to be shallow e.g. must be fit, have job, tall, specific hair and interests, ... Typical relationship duration is 3-12 months until the replacement arrives. There's a multitude of apps for this. Swipe left or right. Indeed you can mathematically optimize for this. Another way of seeing this is as "selective scoring". Not surprisingly, this stuff permeates the internet. Hint: This stage can also be skipped.

Third, the relationship stage; in which it is realized that the reason those dating streaks break down is that something is missing. That one thing that is missing is what in civilian terms would be deemed a friendship. That's two people doing things together beyond having sex or engaging in mundane/mandatory/traditional dating stuff like having dinner together or going out. This is where one learns to solve interpersonal problems with another person instead of just skipping on to the next date. See it as "selective dating".

Fourth, the marrying stage; in which having developed the ability to work and live with another person, one chooses to build on it. This is "selective relationships". At this point, one should have learned that different relationships obtain with different kinds of people and that some relationships are better and more durable than others. At this point one should have a fair understanding of intimate interpersonal relationships: what works, what doesn't, ... Now the search focus changes to things like empathetic, dependable, able to agree to disagree, ... Also see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretary_problem

The problem as I see it is that many get married BEFORE they are in the marrying stage. Given that most marriages last about 5 years, I submit that most couples get married while still in the relationship stage ... or if they're particularly inexperienced/immature, then during the dating stage.

Fifth, the married stage; in which the marriage becomes more important than the persons engaged in it if that makes sense. Another way of phrasing it is to stop thinking of it as the sum total of the parts. In business terms, this is when people work for the company because they believe in the mission; whereas in the earlier stages, they try to be a good fit (stage 4); they work to learn new skills (stage 3); improve their resume (stage 2); get a paycheck (stage 1); or remain unemployed (stage 0).

Note that there's a steady transition from quantity to quality and from simple to complex.

Of course one can be married while stuck in earlier stages. That is the entire problem. It's too easy to get married/people get married too easily. In that case, one has become locked into a structure that's above one's pay grade/interpersonal skill level. When the formal structure doesn't match the problem one is trying to solve or is capable of solving, of course it goes wrong. The ideal structure needs to fit the couple or person employing it. My point is, just because marriage isn't for everyone, it doesn't mean that the institution/structure is deprecated/worthless.

Well my failing marriage definitely could be defined as a problem of jumping to stage 4 while technically needing to be in stage in stage 2.

A combination of the problems of both being young and living in other countries complicating things. In the end the decision was do we give going to 4 straight away a shot or give up on the relationship altogether and though I don't regret doing it in the end it is at the heart of the problems in our relationship and odds are if we had been from the same country and been able to go through a regular dating and relationship cycle we probably never would have ended up married as our differences would have caused problems before the relationship could progress to that level.

A combination of differences that were there from the start but not fully explored before the marriage exacerbated by growing in different directions during the marriage is what lead to the divorce.

I'm sure MMM has reached out to Jeff Bezos with moral support and a discounted offer to rent an Air BNB room in his new divorce house.

thegreatvoid wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:33 am

Just read that Jeff Bezos is getting divorced... not even being the richest man on earth, will prevent your wife from leaving you.

Yeah, this once and for all kills the argument that money is all that matters for women.

However, making time for SO, or any relationship for that matter, doesn't seem like the top priority for someone running the biggest company in the world. Can't have your Amazon and eat her too.

TopHatFox wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:11 pm

It's possible to have a long-term relationship, celebration, and life together without the legal framework.

Absolutely. This is one of the main themes of HIFFIAUW (H.Browne).

jacob wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:10 pm

I think the problem with marrying (not marriage) is that there's no entry moat. If people were required to demonstrate emotional maturity, financial stability, and some mastery of the complexity of relationships, the number of short term divorces would go way down.

Not everywhere it works this way. Try finding someone to marry you in Korea if you're chased by creditors (hint: pretty much impossible).

jacob wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:10 pm

The Catholic Church apparently have some pre-marriage consulting but from what I've heard about it, that's a very low bar to pass.

You heard right. We actually had to take these 'classes' (in Poland, you can't get married in the church unless you show proof of attendance. Obviously, you have to pay to attend. And you have to pay (big time) for the privilege of getting married in the church). One of the many things the priest told the (female part of) the audience was: "You should be happy that this man is willing to marry you! You should start each day by kissing your husband's hand and thanking him that he married you!" And he was not joking...

jacob wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:10 pm

My point is, just because marriage isn't for everyone, it doesn't mean that the institution/structure is deprecated/worthless.

Yeah. It's quite surprising how much bashing marriage, and relationships in general, get on this forum.

@thegreatvoid and @Bankai:
Why are you, guys, assuming that Jeff's Bezos' wife is leaving him, and not the other way around? There was nothing in their statement to indicate that.

The culprit is found. Meet the woman who is worth risking 70 billion:
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-01- ... 70-billion

I wouldn't have taken her for a reader.

I mean why else marry Jeff Bezos? I imagine he could get you some sweet deals on books...

@jacob
Regarding the Catholic counseling prior to marriage: I knew one Catholic who said to me that his overall impression of his going through that process was that it was basically an excuse for the priest to give them a lecture about their moral responsibility to create more Catholics
I'm sure experiences vary.

Regarding 10 years being a success: I think I broadly agree that while in theory marriage ought to be forever (and most entering it desire it to be so), nevertheless, people do change and even long-term arrangements may need to be ended. If a couple divorce after 20 years I doubt I'd call their marriage unsuccessful. After 3? I probably wouldn't be generous.

I think Germaine Greer has a quote to this effect (in response to people commenting on her 'unsuccessful' marriage'), something like "I had a very successful marriage, it just wasn't a long one."

Clarice wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:49 pm

@thegreatvoid and @Bankai:
Why are you, guys, assuming that Jeff's Bezos' wife is leaving him, and not the other way around? There was nothing in their statement to indicate that.

because statistically speaking women are much more likely to initate divorce than men. 69 % of divorces are initated by women
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 154900.htm

Bankai wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 09, 2019 7:31 pm

Yeah, this once and for all kills the argument that money is all that matters for women.

I don´t think anybody of sound mind has ever claimed that money is all that matters to women, but looking though the lense of evolutionary psychology it makes sense, that women are more attracted to men with resources. Just as men are most attracted to women in their early 20s with wide hips and clear skin.

thegreatvoid wrote: ↑

Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:43 am

that women are more attracted to men with resources.

a/k/a "Love at first website"