Getting Divorced.

Ask your investment, budget, and other money related questions here
Bakari
Posts: 97
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2010 7:19 am
Contact:

Post by Bakari » Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:04 pm

@Marius
I did expect we would stay together, but I don't feel that was about trust.

By the time we got married, I knew I could trust her (about as well as anyone can ever know they can trust anyone).
@DividendGuy

for us atleast, it was never about the ring or the paper.

It was about sharing medical benefits, visitation rights, tax rates, etc.


InterfaceLeader
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:38 am

Post by InterfaceLeader » Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:27 pm

@JoeNCA - sorry, but you're wrong. Being married is not always best for the children. If your spouse is beating your children? Molesting them? Drinking away their college fund? Sure, you can say 'shouldn't have married that person' but people make mistakes and divorce is there as an option to undo that mistake.
Secondly, to suggest that you HAVE to be married to raise kids is stupid. Throughout most of history people have frequently died young. To suggest that a woman can't raise kids properly because her husband died, or vice versa, is pretty harsh. In actually, throughout most of history extended families have stepped in to assist, with grandparents and siblings (and friends and neighbors) all helping each other out.
Finally, in many divorces where child abuse is not a factor, both parents still remain involved in their child's upbringing. They don't 'abandon' them, they remain a parent and always will. That doesn't mean they have to stay in a loveless and miserable marriage.


dpmorel
Posts: 137
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 6:51 pm
Contact:

Post by dpmorel » Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:47 pm

@InterfaceLeader - clearly everybody is going to agree about abuse/molestation!?!?!? Its not really worth mentioning.
But your presumption about "loveless marriages" assumes that the next marriage will NOT be loveless and miserable. Unfortunately the stats for divorce are also not great on 2nd/3rd marriages.
Soooooooo... maybe its not the "marriage" that was the problem, maybe its that suburban consumerist hollywood pushed "true love" mentality, where you think Mrs. Right is waiting for you around the corner and it'll be so much easier if you just met the rihgt person. Which is stupid. Marriage is hard, its always hard, no matter who you marry. Owning up to your children that marriage isn't a fairy tale and is really hard is a VERY GOOD lesson for them, not a bad lesson.


investnoob
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:24 pm

Post by investnoob » Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:39 am

I have a few observations from this discussion, if anyone cares.
1. With regards to divorce, it is not a judge's job to be "fair." Instead, it is their job to be the "parent." Imagine what would happen if you and your sibling couldn't find an amicable way to share the toys. The parent comes in and says "well if you can't figure it out together, neither of you gets them." Both sides will be miserable (comparing assets to toys, not children of divorce to toys).
2. Lots of abolutes being thrown around. Not sure how anyone could walk around so confident to judge other people's choices. Seems strange to me.
3. OP, HSpencer, your "solution" to divorce seems to be "don't get divorced." Not quite a solution. Or, are you just advocating amicable divorces? Interface Leader rightly points out that in many cases, its not possible. I'm not really sure what is expected of people who cannot get along anymore...just suck it up and get along?
What brought this on? Are you witness to quite a few divorces amongst your friends? I'm kind of curious. No disrespect meant by it.


JoeNCA
Posts: 81
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:58 am

Post by JoeNCA » Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:41 am

@Investnoob
I think I see people expressing their opinions and to me it does not mean they're judging others - when someone tells me that I am wrong, that is their opinion. Whether it is true or not is up to each individual to decide.
(i.e. I could say that W is a complete dumb-ass druggie that ruined our country not only fiscally but in terms of our reputation on behalf of the rest of the world;While true from my perspective, plenty of others may agree or disagree.)
Also, confidence comes from experience. I am inclined to believe that many whom have expressed their opinions in this discussion have had experiences in the subject matter, whether it was divorce, marriage or raising children.
(post edit)

That said, as OP stated above, the discussion has digressed away from relating to early retirement and is no longer serving its purpose on the forum. While interesting, it's time (for me anyway) to move on to other early retirement topics.


InterfaceLeader
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:38 am

Post by InterfaceLeader » Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:22 pm

@dpmorel - I was trying to make the point that many people don't just divorce on a whim but often very valid reasons for doing so. That you 'don't approve' is judgmental - especially when you don't know the people and the situation. Many people who leave because they are being abused then end up in a situation where neighbours, coworkers etc are judging them badly. They don't want to share their personal grief with everyone.
Stats for divorce are up. Oddly I do think that is connected to the culture we live in - a culture that promotes abuse and violence. Also a culture that is far more accommodating towards women who want to escape husbands (I am not saying women are the only ones who get hurt, just saying it's now easier for them to leave than it used to be)
The nuclear family is a relatively recent development. I actually think children need quite a lot of adult role-models in their lives. But they don't have to comply with the one male, one female parenting model.


HSpencer
Posts: 772
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:21 pm

Post by HSpencer » Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:05 pm

@Investnoob
Thank you for your comments. My OP was never about a solution to divorce of any kind. My OP deals with doing things better in one's life, that "could" save money. I would suggest you read my follow up above.

The thread has digressed into people's opinions about divorces and all of it's ramifications. I never intended that to be the subject. As for your question, I personally have not learned of any associates recently that have gotten a divorce. I got the idea for the post from reading of divorces both here and otherwise, and it dawned on me that a person or persons going for such an action are giving up their rights where it may or may not be necessary. I do not understand why in a lot of cases people would take the lazy way out and throw themselves on some court to decide the way they will live the rest of their lives.

My idea of a divorce without children would be as follows:
"Dear wife, it's over. We have $100.00 in assets. You take $50.00 and I will take $50.00 and I certainly hope you have a nice rest of your life."
Yes the above is oversimplified to the max. But it does NOT include a fat, bald, middle aged robe with a round mouth beard that "decides" what you will do and how and when you will do it, like it or not, good for you or not. YOU have run your life yourselves, right? No, in a lot of cases it will not work at all. But in some, let's "rob" our own lives back from the bench!!!!!
I am personally neither for are against divorce. But in the case it would stare me in the face, I would wish to make every effort to avoid a court. If I could not, then I could not.
Children in divorce are way too complex to handle on one's own. I have no comments of doing that kind DIY.
Hope this clears up the post? ERE is about opting out of the "accepted" way of doing things! I think I will pick a less touchy subject for my next post.


M
Posts: 180
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:34 pm

Post by M » Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:40 pm

Here's my simplified thoughts on divorce:
If you get a woman pregnant, you marry her. Once you get married, you never get divorced. If you never get anyone pregnant, or you never get pregnant if you're a woman, you never get married.
If everyone followed these simple rules there wouldn't be very many divorces. :-P


AlexOliver
Posts: 461
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:25 pm

Post by AlexOliver » Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:23 pm

Here's my thoughts on marriage, and divorce:
If you love someone, you marry them.
If you don't love someone, you don't marry them.
If you no longer love someone, you divorce them.


AlexK
Posts: 122
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 1:05 am
Location: Reno, NV
Contact:

Post by AlexK » Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:38 pm

Here's my thoughts on marriage:
Keep the government out of my personal relationships. If you need a written contract saying that you get half my assets if we break up, I'm not the one for you.


slacker
Posts: 110
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:40 am

Post by slacker » Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:54 pm

@AlexOliver: well..here's the problem:
If you love someone, you marry them.

If you don't love someone, you don't marry them.

If you no longer love someone, you remember you've 3 kids from them.


slacker
Posts: 110
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:40 am

Post by slacker » Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:57 pm

well...even when separation is the practical solution and in the best interest of everyone, even the kids, it's mostly an emotional (not rational) thing..marriage,separation etc..for 99% people.


slacker
Posts: 110
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:40 am

Post by slacker » Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:00 am

@M: lol...funnily enough,makes perfect sense.


Jeremy
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2010 8:16 pm

Post by Jeremy » Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:31 am

This appears to be a very emotionally loaded topic
Full disclosure: I'm married
I read this:

If you love someone, you marry them.

If you don't love someone, you don't marry them.
to be analogous to:

go to school, get good grades, get a good job, work for 30 years, get a gold watch and retire
Not sure if that was the intent behind the phrasing or not. Black and white it is not, but it is the default programming of our society just like a retirement age of 65
Factually, marriage is at least 2 things:

- a public statement that two people want to be together, for better or worse, etc...

- a financial contract.
Generally the contract is of the variety that no business person would ever sign because its terms are ambiguous. In other words, you don't know a priori the financial implications. Alimony required? How much? If he/she slept with some other person in your bed, is alimony still required? It isn't always known in advance, and could change if you move across state lines
I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that the majority of posts on this thread are by males. Statistics quoted on the web state that 60 to 80% of all divorce is initiated by the woman.
If this thread were populated by all natives of Iceland, the responses would probably be very different. Cohabitation and child bearing with no marriage is common in that country
I saw reference to the animal kingdom earlier in the thread. Long term monogamy is not common in the animal kingdom (primates for example), and actually not common in human history outside of Christian based cultures. Some argue that marriage is not "normal" for human biology, and commonly use the "7-year" itch as an example.
People cite many reasons for getting married. Love is one of them. Also included are tax benefits, visas, work related health benefits, etc... If you don't need/want any of those things, there is actually no logical reason to get married, IMHO, including raising children (see Iceland as an example.) If your opinion is different, go for it and best of luck to you


AlexOliver
Posts: 461
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:25 pm

Post by AlexOliver » Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:40 am

@Jeremy: That wasn't the intent. I didn't mean to say that if you love someone, you SHOULD marry them. I was trying to show that I don't see marriage and children as related, ie. "If you get a girl pregnant YOU MARRY HER NO MATTER WHAT." and "If you have kids with someone YOU CAN NOT LEAVE THEM FOR ANY REASON WHATSOEVER." Also that not loving someone was reason enough for a divorce.
I also don't think you should get married if you're not in love. If you are in love, I think it's valid to either stay unmarried, or get married if you see that as making sense for your situation.
I think it's ridiculous that a man and a woman, who are platonic/not in a romantic relationship, can get married for tax savings, or citizenship, and a man and a man or a woman and a woman can't get married if they're in love.


Jeremy
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2010 8:16 pm

Post by Jeremy » Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:37 am

I agree with you and Eminem both :)


M
Posts: 180
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:34 pm

Post by M » Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:41 am

@AlexOliver: Just to clarify, I would never have sex with someone unless I loved them and would be willing to spend the rest of my life with them. So to clarify, my more complicated thoughts on divorce would look more like this:
1) Don't have sex with someone unless you truly love them and would be willing to spend the rest of your life with them.

2) Don't marry someone unless you get them pregnant or they get you pregnant (if you're a girl). Divorces are messy and expensive, people fall out of love all the time, and the best way to not get a divorce is to never get married to begin with.

3) If you're married with children the marriage certificate basically acts as a family security blanket. People leave each other for stupid reasons all the time. If there are consequences for separation people are more inclined to work on their issues, their relationship, etc.

4) If you have to get a divorce, then IMO you've failed at step #1
Full Disclosure: I'm married with two children, and was raised by a single parent. So I probably see divorce as a little more taboo than most people do.


AlexOliver
Posts: 461
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:25 pm

Post by AlexOliver » Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:56 am

I see we disagree on a fundamental premise (step #1). That makes more sense, thanks for clarifying.


M
Posts: 180
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 7:34 pm

Post by M » Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:09 am

@AlexOliver: Just to clarify a little further, when I say that I would never have sex with someone unless I loved them and would be willing to spend the rest of my life with them, what I mean is that I would never put myself in a situation where I could easily get someone pregnant unless I loved them and would be willing to spend the rest of my life with them. Having protected sex with a girl who is on the pill would be just fine in my book.
I think I'm getting a little off topic now. :-P


AlexOliver
Posts: 461
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:25 pm

Post by AlexOliver » Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:22 am

Well yeah, I'd never have unprotected sex with someone I didn't love and trust completely, either. (I don't like the idea of hormonal birth control, and I think condoms are adequate to prevent pregnancy and STDs).
To get back on track, one should try to have an amicable divorce and settle things outside the court rooms.


Post Reply