Portfolio Charts

Ask your investment, budget, and other money related questions here
User avatar
Tyler9000
Posts: 1280
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:45 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Portfolio Charts

Post by Tyler9000 » Sun Aug 28, 2016 5:15 pm

Hmm... there's not really a good spot for that. You're probably best off considering that as an outside income stream sorta like a rental. I know Dragline has asked for a custom asset field that might be able to account for something like this, and I'll think about that some more.

User avatar
jennypenny
Posts: 5295
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:20 pm
Location: Stepford USA

Re: Portfolio Charts

Post by jennypenny » Sun Aug 28, 2016 5:25 pm

Sorry, I wasn't trying to give you an assignment. I'm just stuck with an annuity and it's large enough that I need to account for it somehow.

I miss when my entire life savings was in a passbook account. lol

User avatar
Tyler9000
Posts: 1280
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:45 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Portfolio Charts

Post by Tyler9000 » Sun Aug 28, 2016 5:26 pm

Not an assignment, but still a good idea! ;) I appreciate the question.

User avatar
Dragline
Posts: 4443
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:50 am

Re: Portfolio Charts

Post by Dragline » Sun Aug 28, 2016 7:16 pm

Do it for jp, if not for me . . . :D

User avatar
Tyler9000
Posts: 1280
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:45 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Portfolio Charts

Post by Tyler9000 » Mon Oct 10, 2016 11:25 am

You guys will probably find the latest tool interesting. It directly compares different withdrawal methods and analyzes their effect on retirement spending levels and account balances over time.

https://portfoliocharts.com/2016/10/06/ ... trategies/

eudaimonia
Posts: 30
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 3:51 pm

Re: Portfolio Charts

Post by eudaimonia » Mon Oct 10, 2016 12:02 pm

Wow, that is super helpful! Thanks.

workathome
Posts: 1303
Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:06 pm

Re: Portfolio Charts

Post by workathome » Mon Oct 10, 2016 8:42 pm

Nice photos too :-)

User avatar
C40
Posts: 1853
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2011 4:30 am
Location: Western U.S.
Contact:

Re: Portfolio Charts

Post by C40 » Mon Oct 10, 2016 10:55 pm

Oh man, that's awesome. And great timing for me :-)

Thanks Tyler!

User avatar
BRUTE
Posts: 2517
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2015 5:20 pm

Re: Portfolio Charts

Post by BRUTE » Tue Oct 11, 2016 1:33 am

that's pretty cool. how does Tyler9000 come up with these novel calculators?

IlliniDave
Posts: 1675
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:46 pm

Re: Portfolio Charts

Post by IlliniDave » Tue Oct 11, 2016 4:35 am

Back to the annuity topic, I too have annuity income (both SS and one from my employer). I typically ignore them when it comes to analysis of assets and net worth. You can estimate a present value for them and consider them a "bond-like" asset. For SS people use rules of thumb like 12x-14x whatever your current annual benefit is. For annuities you can go to immediateannuity.com and play around with the inputs to get what it would cost to buy a similar annuity to what you anticipate, and put that figure in the bond category too. I've done that for giggles just because it makes me look a few hundred k-bucks wealthier than I am :)

The most straightforward thing is to just subtract off the anticipated annuity/SS income from whatever withdrawals you intend to make like Tyler suggested above. I think if you dig around in the customization of firecalc you can enter pensions in addition to SS. I haven't played around with portfoliocharts as much since by the time I knew about the site I'd already built my own simulation/calculator that is dialed right in to my situation. But it looks like a really cool tool suite. Tyler9000 has done the world of future retirees a great service.

User avatar
Tyler9000
Posts: 1280
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:45 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Portfolio Charts

Post by Tyler9000 » Tue Oct 11, 2016 10:47 am

BRUTE wrote:how does Tyler9000 come up with these novel calculators?
Usually I come across a good question that I don't know the answer to, or a statement that I intuitively believe to be true or false but want some data to back it up (or prove me wrong). Basically, forums like this one inspire new ideas. Keep it up! :D

MrNotRobot
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 3:41 am

Re: Portfolio Charts

Post by MrNotRobot » Thu Oct 13, 2016 8:18 pm

Tyler9000 wrote: Data for multiple countries is still on my long-term wish list
I'm in Australia and from here it is no problem to buy NYSE traded ETFs through my online broker, at minimal additional cost. I guess it would be no problem from many other countries as well including Canada and UK. This should make it entirely possible to invest in any of the portfolios exactly as they appear on Portfolio Charts. It would be interesting to see how the portfolios performed with currency exchange rates incorporated.

Regarding the list of country data that you're looking for, I think it would be of great value to include Japan.

User avatar
Tyler9000
Posts: 1280
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:45 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Portfolio Charts

Post by Tyler9000 » Fri Oct 14, 2016 10:34 am

MrNotRobot wrote:I'm in Australia and from here it is no problem to buy NYSE traded ETFs through my online broker, at minimal additional cost. I guess it would be no problem from many other countries as well including Canada and UK. This should make it entirely possible to invest in any of the portfolios exactly as they appear on Portfolio Charts. It would be interesting to see how the portfolios performed with currency exchange rates incorporated.
Interesting train of thought.

To make the numbers valuable in foreign countries, I'd need to adjust for both currency exchange rates and also local inflation. I'm totally down for that if the resulting numbers would actually be actionable.

I just need some more info on the specifics of how that would work. Are you able to literally purchase the same US fund like VTI and TLT as you can in the US, or are you using special version in Australian dollars? What are the "minimum additional costs"? And does it work the same way in other countries as well?

User avatar
BRUTE
Posts: 2517
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2015 5:20 pm

Re: Portfolio Charts

Post by BRUTE » Fri Oct 14, 2016 2:40 pm

can't anyone do currency and local inflation calculations on their own? there are also differences in local taxes.. for example, afabk, US stock exchanges will withhold capital gains tax on stocks of foreigners for the IRS. it then might or might not be taxed again by the local government. way too complicated for Tyler9000 to model for every country.

User avatar
Tyler9000
Posts: 1280
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:45 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Portfolio Charts

Post by Tyler9000 » Sat Oct 15, 2016 11:44 am

Let's set taxes aside for a moment -- I agree those are really complex. How exactly does a foreign investor buy US-based funds? Does anyone have any experience with that, or can you point me to an online guide describing the process for your country?

Solvent
Posts: 124
Joined: Wed Mar 04, 2015 3:04 pm
Location: Romandy
Contact:

Re: Portfolio Charts

Post by Solvent » Sat Oct 15, 2016 2:58 pm

Eeek. Well, I don't think it's a simple answer. When I was in Aus, I could directly buy US shares/funds, but my broker would charge much higher trade costs, and then in addition charge ongoing custody costs.
You can also buy, on the ASX, something like Vanguard's VTS, which as I understand it tracks a basic US index with no hedging. This is a better option for most investors I think, given trade costs. But how this plays into your charts, with fees, etc., I don't know.

User avatar
Tyler9000
Posts: 1280
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:45 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Portfolio Charts

Post by Tyler9000 » Sat Oct 15, 2016 4:27 pm

Solvent wrote: You can also buy, on the ASX, something like Vanguard's VTS, which as I understand it tracks a basic US index with no hedging. This is a better option for most investors I think, given trade costs. But how this plays into your charts, with fees, etc., I don't know.
Yeah, that's also been my impression with other countries and it seems like the best solution that I'm aware of. For example, the Canadian equivalent of VTI is VUN. I started a spreadsheet a while back to make a list of international fund equivalents, but didn't get very far. Maybe I'll revisit that.

Thanks for the info.

User avatar
Seppia
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 9:34 am
Location: Italy

Re: Portfolio Charts

Post by Seppia » Sat Oct 15, 2016 5:09 pm

Tyler9000 wrote:Let's set taxes aside for a moment -- I agree those are really complex. How exactly does a foreign investor buy US-based funds? Does anyone have any experience with that, or can you point me to an online guide describing the process for your country?
Ciao Tyler
I recently moved back to Italy from the USA, so I studied the subject quite a bit.
To keep it short:
The best bet for European investors is generally (I say generally because there might be some slight differences by country) to avoid buying strictly American funds.
Vanguard and blackrock offer etfs, generally based in Ireland for tax efficiency and traded around Europe, who will be equivalent to the American etfs.
See here for example (holland has some of the best choices for vanguard etfs, I'm in Italy and buy their etfs on amsterdams stick exchange) https://www.vanguard.nl/portal/site/kii ... /documents
So we do have in general a more limited choice, and expense ratios are a bit higher, but other than that they're the same.
The advantage of these etfs is that they usually are armonized
This means that for example when I'm in Italy, I will only pay Italian taxes on dividends when I get the dividends from europes ETF VEUR, even if the ETF is traded in holland
Last edited by Seppia on Sun Oct 16, 2016 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

Ontarian
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:33 am
Contact:

Re: Portfolio Charts

Post by Ontarian » Sat Oct 15, 2016 5:21 pm

Tyler9000 wrote:Let's set taxes aside for a moment -- I agree those are really complex. How exactly does a foreign investor buy US-based funds? Does anyone have any experience with that, or can you point me to an online guide describing the process for your country?
I'm Canadian (obvious given my username) yet all the ETFs I currently hold are US-listed. Before entering an order in my TFSA, RRSP, or taxable account, I use Norbert’s Gambit (it's a Canadian thing, though anyone could use it to less-expensively convert currency between CAD<->USD) to purchase USD. Then I simply place an order with my online broker (Questrade - the best Canadian one) for VTI or EWS or NGE. All three ETFs are traded on the NYSE. I included EWS and NGE because I'm wanting to buy them. I'm waiting for CAD to come up some against the USD before converting plus I'm betting NGE will fall more. Now is as good a time as ever to buy EWS though.

I feel like sharing that this is my first post in the ERE forums! I'm a big fan. Lots of wise people here I continue to learn from. Other 26 year old university students are gearing up for a night out filled with $6 Labatt Blue or Caesars, but I'm here reading the forums while I eat supper.

User avatar
Tyler9000
Posts: 1280
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:45 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Portfolio Charts

Post by Tyler9000 » Sun Oct 16, 2016 11:25 am

@ Seppia & Ontarian -- Thanks! You've given me a lot to look into.

MrNotRobot
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 3:41 am

Re: Portfolio Charts

Post by MrNotRobot » Tue Oct 18, 2016 9:53 am

@Tyler

Sorry I haven't been monitoring this properly. Notifications don't seem to be working for me.

Yes, from Oz, I can buy actual US traded equities and ETFs trading on the NYSE stock exchange (and others e.g. Nasdaq) using USD converted from AUD and held in a USD account until used. This can be done through most of our larger stock brokers, and also through multinational brokers like Interactive Brokers. Some provide very poor spreads and fairly high fees, but some are quite reasonable. Tax issues should just be ignored I think, but I'll mention that OZ has a tax treaty with the US. I think overall it can be done where the differences due to expenses are negligible.

There are global market ETFs on the Oz exchange bought with AUD and also hedged options, but our choices are extremely limited compared to what you guys have available. For example, it is very difficult to find any global small cap offerings, and various fixed interest instruments.

It's very difficult from outside of the US to assess how any of the portfolio might perform in one's own country, if it can even be implemented. So this option occurred to me as something that is definitely viable, except that exchange rates need to be considered and also inflation as you have mentioned. But this data should be easily obtainable.

I feel terrible suggesting anything that might result in more work for you, because of how much you have already given! But it seems it would be a very interesting study... and maybe an actionable one for us non-US types.
Last edited by MrNotRobot on Tue Oct 18, 2016 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MrNotRobot
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 3:41 am

Re: Portfolio Charts

Post by MrNotRobot » Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:05 am

Just to follow up with an example, I can't see any way to implement Golden Butterfly using Oz traded instruments. We don't have the following equivalents available:

- SCV, LTT, STT

Another issue is that our TSM equivelant, which would be the ASX total market is incredibly, unbelievably, scarily concentrated to heavy cap banks and miners. Our small cap end is full of junior mineral explorers, many of which amount to not much more than just a couple of guys with shovels. So there is very good reason to suspect that what works in the US may not work in Oz.

MrNotRobot
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 3:41 am

Re: Portfolio Charts

Post by MrNotRobot » Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:24 am

BRUTE wrote:can't anyone do currency and local inflation calculations on their own?
Not without re-inventing the wheel, unless the raw spreadsheets were made available.
afabk
Lol!

MrNotRobot
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2016 3:41 am

Re: Portfolio Charts

Post by MrNotRobot » Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:37 am

I just checked the actual fees from a big broker here, NabTrade:

ASX trades: 0.11% of trade value
International Trades (wait for it!): 0.11% of trade value

Additional fees:
- SEC fee for sell trades 0.00184%
- Custody fee of 0.5% of the average balance of international holdings over the year, but only charged if you make zero trades throughout the year. Shouldn't be an issue if you re-balance at least annually.

I think Interactive Brokers is even better, and there are others. All in all completely viable I think.

User avatar
Tyler9000
Posts: 1280
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:45 pm
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Portfolio Charts

Post by Tyler9000 » Tue Oct 18, 2016 8:06 pm

Very cool. Thanks for the info! I can't promise I'll be able to act on it any time soon, but figuring out a way to help international investors is definitely high on my wish list.

Post Reply