Retired and depressed

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viking
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Retired and depressed

Post by viking »

Have anyone in here fallen into depression after retiring? Do you care to share your experience?

I know its a common thing among older people who are used to working full time their whole life and all of a sudden get a feeling of emptyness, but no matter how you look at it retiring represents a major change in anyones life. I know I will be working full time for 5 more years, but at that point I will have the choice of either cutting down work on a slow rate (say 80% in 2019, 60% in 2021, 40% in 2023 and then retiring from work completely) or work fulltime just a couple more years and then retire completely.

I imagine retiring would have the opposite effect rather than falling into depression, but it would be interesting to read about different experiences on this matter. For example, did anyone retire only to find themselves play computer games 10 hours a day? Did anyone retire and then regret it, or go back to fulltime working?

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Sclass
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Re: Retired and depressed

Post by Sclass »

I do get mildly depressed or maybe I should say I have my days. Nothing like long term debilitating depression though.

I miss working on big projects. I miss being part of a team and the mix of fear and uncertainty which was part of my work. Like sailing in hurricanes (just an analogy I'm not a sailor) there is the satisfaction of conquering difficult obstacles that have a huge penalty of failure. I have lunch with pals who are working on big skunkworks projects in the major Silicon Valley outfits and wish I could be a part of that. The $250k salaries that are being thrown at these guys make me jealous.

Then the other rational 95% of the time I can see their project timelines, their MBA handlers, their tenuous funding, their low pay ($250k isn't enough to get me down there to solve their problems), the mind whoring (thinking somebody else's thoughts for money), the silly tax treatment of wages, the 9am meeting I MUST attend etc.. And I start liking my day to day uncomplicated life.

And what will be my role? Engineering manager douche who conducts but doesn't comprehend the sensitivities and details of the project? Or techie tool getting bossed around and letting douches gratify themselves on my mental labor? Wow, I'm feeling better already just saying this!

I went hunting five times in the last two weeks. Yep, it was shallow but it felt good. Nobody sitting over me saying, Sclass, you MUST bag something today. My hunting is mostly hiking with my rifle on my back. If I don't fire, I don't have to clean the gun. There's always Trader Joes.

My longing to go back is kind of like guys who dream about sex. The reality is a lot more complicated and messier than the dream. Once I slap myself and see full time work for what it is, I'm happy to be right where I am...sidelined.

I do wonder about my purpose in the world. I'm wasting my talent. And I cannot relate to all the old guys I see hanging out at Peets or sitting in the public library. It looks horrible.

Edit - given the fact I haven't played video games much since Asteroids or Star Gate, maybe playing 10 hours a day of some Call to Duty would be fun. It looks fun. Is there something wrong with that (so long as you don't do it for a year)? A pal who recently retired has a hobby of growing pot. He smokes everyday. Not my cup of tea, but he seems to have fun. Like gardening and recreational drugging all rolled into one. One side of me says, yep, Nate has really degenerated, other side sees he is having a hell of a good time and he's happy.

almostthere
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Re: Retired and depressed

Post by almostthere »

Well it is harder to say it better than SClass said it. The last four sentences were especially true for me in the first year. As I develop new interests and as I learn to give a reasonable response to the what do you do question, I become more and more grateful for this ERE life. The feeling he refers to arise less often but do arise and they stay for shorter and shorter periods each time.

7Wannabe5
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Re: Retired and depressed

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

SClass said: And what will be my role? Engineering manager douche who conducts but doesn't comprehend the sensitivities and details of the project? Or techie tool getting bossed around and letting douches gratify themselves on my mental labor? Wow, I'm feeling better already just saying this!
I think one obvious answer would be Choice 3 - Outside Genius Consultant Hired Gun (I have no genius tech skills myself but I do know retired or slacker-self-employed people in real life who have done this and are quite obnoxious about it because they can make $XXX/hr any time they want and then just toss $XX at a friend who is a good cook and suggest that she go buy some groceries at the chi-chi market and prepare something different rather than making lentil soup and brown bread again etc.) and another answer might be Choice 4- do it for kicks in a setting which matches your philanthropic interests. For instance, go to Sudan and teach orphaned-child-military-conscripts-now-in-refugee-camp how to program. You could also likely bring your hunting skills to bear in that environment.

As I noted in other thread, people can't stay in relaxation mode forever without becoming depressed. You have to strive and employ and expand your skills/muscle periodically. Of course, the converse is also true and often under-appreciated in our culture where indulgence is frequently substituted for true relaxation.

susswein
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Re: Retired and depressed

Post by susswein »

7Wannabe5 wrote:another answer might be Choice 4- do it for kicks in a setting which matches your philanthropic interests. For instance, go to Sudan and teach orphaned-child-military-conscripts-now-in-refugee-camp how to program.
I would seriously love some pointers on actually accomplishing something like this. I've talked to a number of groups about volunteering in a way that would let me use my engineering problem solving skills, but all they seem to want is someone to come in and stuff envelopes for them.

USAF Sgt
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Re: Retired and depressed

Post by USAF Sgt »

Employment has never made me feel anything better than being a slave with a little bit of leeway. I hate employment. Loathe it. I have never received one bit of enjoyment, pleasure, ambition, motivation, fulfillment, pr purpose from it.

The day I retire is the day I dance on the grave of employment.

Tyler9000
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Re: Retired and depressed

Post by Tyler9000 »

susswein wrote: I would seriously love some pointers on actually accomplishing something like this. I've talked to a number of groups about volunteering in a way that would let me use my engineering problem solving skills, but all they seem to want is someone to come in and stuff envelopes for them.
I'm not committing to any big projects for a little while, but as a fellow engineer this organization is on my radar. I'm also on the lookout for any similar opportunities I can find more locally.

http://www.remap.org.uk/about-remap/what-remap-do.html

Regarding retirement depression, it's still way too early for me to have any good advice. But I have enough on my radar that I think I can keep myself motivated for a good while. @Sclass -- I'd actually recommend picking up a few video games for fun. I just would avoid the 10 hours a day idea.

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Sclass
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Re: Retired and depressed

Post by Sclass »

Thanks for the suggestions. I think I'll be a lot more depressed if I go back to work. Volunteering has many of the aspects I hated about working (this is a personal thing) without the pay. My big peeve was following somebody to make them happy rather than doing the right thing to win in our market. Its like playing for a dumb coach and ending up with a losing season. I suspect I may have some of the same issues volunteering or in a non profit...despite them being more noble institutions.

I really don't feel like doing the charity thing. A friend asked me to help do the electronics for her potable water project in Africa and I refused. She's just helping people live and breed in a place where larger numbers won't be able to survive. The whole thing lacks vision.

Video games look fun when I see my nephews play them. Maybe I'll try. It looks like I've missed a revolution in games since Galaxian. I've stayed away for the same reason I avoid my pal's pot farm. Although it wouldn't hurt my employee performance review (I'm retired) it would use up my time and leave me semi comatose. I'll stick to real hunting and riding my real motorcycle before I do the virtual type. I can save that one for the nursing home.

So back to depression. I grew up in a Presbyterian home. While I hated the organized religion I did end up with some spirituality. Today I realize I was unfairly gifted (by something luck, God, radiation, whatever) with technical talent. I sometimes get moody when I feel like I'm not doing what I'm supposed to be doing. As if there really is something I'm supposed to be doing.

My friends have suggested I start another business. It's clear to them I'm not a good employee. I guess im not content to invest in others' ventures in a small way. I'm doomed to make one big bet on myself. Back to challenge and struggle.

We must be wired to struggle for survival. My advice, FI first then find happiness...perhaps before actually quitting.

henrik
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Re: Retired and depressed

Post by henrik »


7Wannabe5
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Re: Retired and depressed

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Sclass said: Today I realize I was unfairly gifted (by something luck, God, radiation, whatever) with technical talent. I sometimes get moody when I feel like I'm not doing what I'm supposed to be doing. As if there really is something I'm supposed to be doing.
I get what you are saying here and I think you are lucky if you feel most fulfilled by using your talents that also are most likely to be compensated on the market. I am capable of doing technical work. I have a degree in mathematics and scored high in related realms on standardized exams but it leaves me cold and seems ultimately meaningless. I can maybe enjoy spending an hour or two a day on such abstract puzzle-solving activities before feeling strung-out and numb. OTOH, reading picture books to young children or growing vegetables are activities that make me feel like I am doing what I am supposed to be doing because I feel warm and engaged in the moment when I am doing them and my second choice for activities would be ones that were more exciting like treasure hunting for rare books or riding on the back of a motorcycle. My point here being that after spending almost half a century on the planet, I realize that what makes ME feel happy and/or fulfilled does not change and I just circle through phases where I either am or am not doing these things and a lot of it comes down to happenstance but some of it is due to lack of self-awareness. It's like you could call up your Mom and ask her what were the three activities you were happiest doing when you were 6 and it would be true that doing the adult version of these things would make you feel happier today.

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Re: Retired and depressed

Post by jacob »

Here ranting in no particular order ...

I suspect that rather than looking for a cause and effect relationship, what retirement/not being full-time occupied in the pursuit of earning a living... does is to reveal who you actually are as a person. Or rather, it reveals more about you than the usual path [of a lifetime of employment] which reveals very little.

I learned at least two things.

That I'm not happy unless I have some big problem to solve. Not just any problem but a problem that makes me feel like I'm on a mission. In Gervais terms, I like to be on a clueless pursuit and really believe in what I'm doing. However, I do not need a boss to tell me what that thing is or should be. I'm perfectly able to "entertain" myself for years on end as long as the problem is unsolved. No need to hold my hand or tell me what to do.

(Specifically, I learned that I would not be happy spending my years traveling and eating at restaurants.)

However, I also found that such problems are more easily found within the sphere on standard paid-to-work... at least for the kind of problems I'm interested in. I learned that one can only go so far working out of one's bedroom. This is perhaps unfortunate but it is what it is. I concluded that for many of the things I find interesting I'm actually forced to do it within the scope of employment if I want to take it beyond the hobby/self-employment level.

Now, several things can actually be taken pretty far on that level but not all. It still blows my mind some people actually suggested that I resort to writing blog posts about finance instead of jumping on the chance to do it for real. As if blogging about airplanes is anything like flying them.

BTW: Lest people get the impression that it's impossible to do cool shit without a W-2 let me also state [for the record] that I basically have a sample size of N=2 (I've done two big things since quitting my career and only 1 of them involved employment) and that plenty of people have found happiness pursuing what they do. Anyone who thinks that what I do is representative of the full spectrum ERE is an idiot :-P ... For the next chapter in my life, I'm looking to do something w/o an employer again.

In conclusion, the environment in which one can operate is very much set by the fact that most people still work for a living. Hence, one either has to start interacting with people who don't really care about working for a living (bohemians, students, wealthy people...) or resort to interacting on a level that earn-buy people relate to, namely weekend or evening activities.

Continuing ...

The way I see it is that reaching financial independence is just yet another step in a person's development. What's tragic and sad is that most people don't grow beyond this until they're 65!! Whereas we reach it at age 30+ or so. Hence, most people never get to find out who they really are until they're quite old and thus physically and maybe even mentally shut out of a lot of activities. Whereas we're occupying a largely unexplored land of opportunities. What I'm saying is that people who follow the traditional path pretty much has that path laid out for them. We have to break our own trail.

http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2722

Normal people only experience one chapter of their life. We write many.

In particular, this means that anyone pursuing this has to have some kind of leadership in them. By leadership I mean a kind of moral courage to do what they believe in (not the fake kind of middle-management leadership that is fake enthusiasm for the status quo). I don't think it's uncommon upon retiring early especially when forced to to discover that this kind of leadership is missing. This is perhaps not surprising since the system does its damnest to train it out of people as much as possible.

bibacula
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Re: Retired and depressed

Post by bibacula »

Robert Atchley described six phases of retirement, which I think apply to this thread: pre-retirement, honeymoon, disenchantment, reorientation, stability and terminal.

I've been FI since 2001, and I've experienced the first five phases. A quick overview (with my comments):

1. Pre-retirement: Saving and dreaming of what we want to do.
2. Honeymoon: Enjoyment of one's free time. (Just waking up without having to commute made me smile. I felt hopeful and optimistic every day. I accomplished my "bucket list" in this time. Lasted about 2.5 years for me.)
3. Disenchantement: Feel depressed about life and the lack of things to do. (I felt this for about six months.)
4. Reorientation: Develop a more realistic attitude toward use of time. (I realized that I couldn't just travel endlessly as I had planned. I had to develop other interests. I taught English in Asia for several years while learning how to balance challenge and comfort.)
5. Stability: An enjoyable routine is developed that makes you feel happy and important. (I'm here now. It's pretty awesome! :))
6. Terminal: Illness or disability requires an assisted care setting.

If you're stuck in the Disenchantment Phase, then you're probably realizing that your pre-retirement dreams weren't realistic. Let go of your fantasies and create a new life. It took a few years for me to correct my course.

viking
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Re: Retired and depressed

Post by viking »

There are some really good points being made here. Personally I'm leaning more towards semi-retiring before quitting work completely. Working 2 days a week instead of 5 might give me a chance to actually enjoy the work I do, at the same time freeing up some time to develop new interests and hobbies.

zb2
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Re: Retired and depressed

Post by zb2 »

i agree, this thread has been very helpful!
jacob wrote:In conclusion, the environment in which one can operate is very much set by the fact that most people still work for a living. Hence, one either has to start interacting with people who don't really care about working for a living (bohemians, students, wealthy people...) or resort to interacting on a level that earn-buy people relate to, namely weekend or evening activities.
as i've been transitioning from a standard professional lifestyle to a more self-directed one, i've been thinking about this too, e.g. trying to interact more with bohemians and generally create new social structures to replace the ones that a workplace provides (and not just the time spent at work, but also the social norms/expectations related to the company you work for and pursuing career advancement etc).

Devil's Advocate
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Re: Retired and depressed

Post by Devil's Advocate »

Speaking for myself, no depression. Not even a shadow of a suspicion of depression. Just one big ear-to-ear smile. (Touch wood!) But perhaps we’re still honeymooning, my Retirement and I, and let’s see what the future holds …
jacob wrote:what retirement/not being full-time occupied in the pursuit of earning a living... does is to reveal who you actually are as a person. Or rather, it reveals more about you than the usual path [of a lifetime of employment] which reveals very little.
That’s a very wise insight.

It happens with relationships. Many relationships carry on apparently beautifully, but only because people, although they may well sleep together, actually see one another only fleetingly most workdays (and holidays are another different flurry of frenzied activity that keeps them as busy, perhaps even more busy!). Further familiarity would only result in the proverbial contempt, and a split. Sad but true.

With relationships, such falling apart is sad but probably a good thing. But what of individuals?

There are people who, if not slave-driven mercilessly all day long, and if allowed to be brought face to face with their own selves, will actually go crazy. It may be a function of age, that is, you don’t get the luxury of the time for such introspection until you are old and ossified in your habits, but it can also be a function of who you are. When a person finds that they don’t like their own company, how tragic is that!

Such people will be well advised to once again find some distraction or distractions (paid or otherwise) to keep them sane. But unlike the sadness of a once-happy relationship breaking, here there’s no “but that’s a good thing” consolation. I’m not sure if this sort of “ailment” necessarily has a cure : one hopes there is, for the sake of people like these. Because some people of this kind can be otherwise very good and nice people, and deserving of happiness. (I can think of one very close relative who would fit this description to a T.)

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