I have a child who is a senior in high school, so this college topic is near to my heart right now. I agree with previous posts that the value of a college degree has been greatly devalued, although the actual cost has gone up dramatically. I also agree that where a high school diploma used to be all you needed for many jobs, this has been replaced by a college degree. Much as this is not logical, the fact remains that a college degree is a basic entry ticket into many sectors of the work force. As a recipient of a diploma from a graduate school (I completed 7 years after college), my education worked out great for me, but am not blind to the current shortcomings of colleges. For many graduates, college is indeed nothing more than a scam and a debt trap. It is truly intriguing that students loans are not forgiven in bankruptcy.
So, the question remains. All the facts about devaluation and outrageous expenses are true. Four years of college also entails a huge opportunity cost, in that the young adult loses 4 years of ability to generate an income. Hence, ERE is postponed by 4 years. But if employers are looking at a college degree is an entry ticket into the work force, how do you get around that? My child does not have much focus and shows no interest in a craft such as electrician of carpenter. In essence, college is for him first of all a place to grow up a little and develop some focus. I welcome some discussion on how today's teenagers can manage their own future with, but especially without college.
College degrees are devalued, but how do you fare without one?
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dot_com_vet
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I think the rules are the same as they've been for the last few decades. As a gen-X'er:
- My classmates that dropped out of college got "jobs". They were laid off during the great recession. They either changed to a different field or are now finally finishing their degree. This isn't an easy life.
- My classmates that graduated have "careers" at megacorps with all the benefits and frustrations that comes with it. Nobody was laid off, but I'm sure we've seen raises/promotions/benefits diluted like everyone else.
You don't need to take on ridiculous debt or any debt if you're creative. One could attend a community college very reasonably, and then get a full-time job with tuition reimbursement. I'm always surprised how generous companies are with that benefit.
- My classmates that dropped out of college got "jobs". They were laid off during the great recession. They either changed to a different field or are now finally finishing their degree. This isn't an easy life.
- My classmates that graduated have "careers" at megacorps with all the benefits and frustrations that comes with it. Nobody was laid off, but I'm sure we've seen raises/promotions/benefits diluted like everyone else.
You don't need to take on ridiculous debt or any debt if you're creative. One could attend a community college very reasonably, and then get a full-time job with tuition reimbursement. I'm always surprised how generous companies are with that benefit.
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Beaudacious
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If he doesn't have much focus (which I assume to mean he doesn't know what he wants to do in college), he could look into the military. I joined after I went to college, but there are quite a few people that do well without college degrees here. Depending on your job, you can get clearances and technical certifications that are way more important for getting jobs in the private or higher public sector than an academic degree. On the job training combined with multiple networking opportunities and funding for education... Just have to be flexible and keep a cool head during the years that you sacrifice.
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RealPerson
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Funny you should mention the military. My son has mentioned this, but he want a college degree PRIOR to possibly joining the military. I am hoping that he is not looking for a 4 year vacation prior to starting his life in earnest! DW and myself have somewhat opposed the military because of the ongoing wars and the risk for life and limb. Now that Iraq is over and Afghanistan seems to be winding down, maybe it is worth another look.
My son has been accepted at state colleges where the tuition is in the $4000-6000/year range, so that won't break the bank. Still too much money if he is going to be on vacation. He has rejected the idea of a military academy, because he wants to "experience real college life". He has no chance to get in academically in any event. These military academies are very tough to get into.
My son has been accepted at state colleges where the tuition is in the $4000-6000/year range, so that won't break the bank. Still too much money if he is going to be on vacation. He has rejected the idea of a military academy, because he wants to "experience real college life". He has no chance to get in academically in any event. These military academies are very tough to get into.
@RealPerson: "Funny you should mention the military. My son has mentioned this, but he want a college degree PRIOR to possibly joining the military."
I'm an AF vet. Deciding to enlist was the best decision I ever made.
IMO, going to college first makes sense only if you intend to become an officer, and becoming an officer only makes sense if you intend to stay in for 20 years (until retirement). I've heard many ex-officer friends - including my stepson, who's a Marine officer - say the same thing. Even if you know you want to be a lifer when you're 18 and making that decision (?!?), many dedicated officers are deliberately downsized before they can achieve retirement age so the military doesn't have to pay them a pension. That will get worse as we go forward because of the budget cuts we can all see coming.
If you're going in to buy yourself time to grow up, or because you don't know what you want to do with your life, for the love of Pete go enlisted. Aiming for four years of work experience and the GI Bill is a lot less expensive psychologically than getting a financially expensive degree in something grandiose-sounding that you will never end up using because after OCS you find out that - surprise! - 95% of military officers are paper-pushing middle managers. Who the hell wants to be that when they grow up? And you don't earn anywhere near enough as an officer (versus enlisted) to offset the price tag of the required but literally useless education.
My $0.02
Edit: I assure you that living in a military dorm will give your son almost all of the "college life" he's looking for. And after his four years are up, he can go do it again at a university. With a sense of direction and more personal responsibility. PAID FOR.
I'm an AF vet. Deciding to enlist was the best decision I ever made.
IMO, going to college first makes sense only if you intend to become an officer, and becoming an officer only makes sense if you intend to stay in for 20 years (until retirement). I've heard many ex-officer friends - including my stepson, who's a Marine officer - say the same thing. Even if you know you want to be a lifer when you're 18 and making that decision (?!?), many dedicated officers are deliberately downsized before they can achieve retirement age so the military doesn't have to pay them a pension. That will get worse as we go forward because of the budget cuts we can all see coming.
If you're going in to buy yourself time to grow up, or because you don't know what you want to do with your life, for the love of Pete go enlisted. Aiming for four years of work experience and the GI Bill is a lot less expensive psychologically than getting a financially expensive degree in something grandiose-sounding that you will never end up using because after OCS you find out that - surprise! - 95% of military officers are paper-pushing middle managers. Who the hell wants to be that when they grow up? And you don't earn anywhere near enough as an officer (versus enlisted) to offset the price tag of the required but literally useless education.
My $0.02
Edit: I assure you that living in a military dorm will give your son almost all of the "college life" he's looking for. And after his four years are up, he can go do it again at a university. With a sense of direction and more personal responsibility. PAID FOR.
It sounds like it has been decided that he's going to college. In my mind the kindest thing you can do for him is to insist that he pay at least some of the costs of being in college. A summer job or business is something he must do if he wants spending money. Ideally, he'd have a part-time job or business through the semester as well.
You are a business owner. He has a good example. Walk him through the process of starting a business from scratch; applying for the local license, acquiring the sales-tax disc, the accounting and invoicing requirements. I don't know your business but if you plan to have him work for you, considering hiring him as a independent contractor rather than an employee. It will give him the entrepreneurial feel of self-responsibility. Rather than being told what to do he is responsible for figuring out how to get it done himself.
How to get things done on his own is one of the most important life skills he can learn. In the past college was the time and place to learn it. That has changed. It is now the place to go if you want to delay learning how to be responsible for yourself. Next year parental health insurance coverage will be extended to those up to 26 years old, effectively extending adolescence to the 27th birthday.
There are still hurdles for those without degrees. They exclude themselves from the highly structured cube-farm jobs. They exclude themselves from the professional-license positions as well. On the other hand, if they use those five years to figure out how to run a business they can hire or contract people who have jumped through the hoops.
You are a business owner. He has a good example. Walk him through the process of starting a business from scratch; applying for the local license, acquiring the sales-tax disc, the accounting and invoicing requirements. I don't know your business but if you plan to have him work for you, considering hiring him as a independent contractor rather than an employee. It will give him the entrepreneurial feel of self-responsibility. Rather than being told what to do he is responsible for figuring out how to get it done himself.
How to get things done on his own is one of the most important life skills he can learn. In the past college was the time and place to learn it. That has changed. It is now the place to go if you want to delay learning how to be responsible for yourself. Next year parental health insurance coverage will be extended to those up to 26 years old, effectively extending adolescence to the 27th birthday.
There are still hurdles for those without degrees. They exclude themselves from the highly structured cube-farm jobs. They exclude themselves from the professional-license positions as well. On the other hand, if they use those five years to figure out how to run a business they can hire or contract people who have jumped through the hoops.
He could just work two or three entry-level jobs while he lives at home and learns to invest. Then he could retire at 25 and then go study whatever he wants at a state school and pay for it himself. He'd probably enjoy the experience more with no pressure to graduate on time or pull a 4.0. I find the students who are all about grades and worried about getting a job after graduation don't enjoy the learning experience as much, class is seen more as a hurdle to get over than as something to be enjoyed.
That route also has the advantage of having a built-in easy exit plan since he can change course at any time if he decides he'd rather take out loans to go to school or jump into the military.
But that only works if he's joined the ERE cult and will actually save and wisely invest his money. If he just blows it all on consumer junk then he'd probably be better off in school or the military.
That route also has the advantage of having a built-in easy exit plan since he can change course at any time if he decides he'd rather take out loans to go to school or jump into the military.
But that only works if he's joined the ERE cult and will actually save and wisely invest his money. If he just blows it all on consumer junk then he'd probably be better off in school or the military.
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jacob
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I don't think a college degree will compensate for a lack of focus when unemployment levels are high. I think the lack of focus is the biggest issue. The question is how to solve that. I don't know the answer: go to college, a min-wage job, go traveling, join the military, ...
I know a few teenagers, all four of which I'd say lack focus. Two of them specifically decided against college due to the degree devaluation. Initially I was impressed by the insight (that I perceived), but now I'm not so sure: They're hopping from short-term job to short-term job while whining about how things were better in high school without the bills (they're consumers) and all that responsibility (of paying them). That's a sad thing to hear from a 20 year old already! The third one is highly intelligent but lacks self-discipline and decided to dedicate her first year math studies to watching sitcoms and proceeded to fail her classes. She changed her major to something easier (and completely useless)---good thing (for her) the government is paying. The fourth one is a high school dropout. I wouldn't say it's a lack of focus, but more of a lack of initiative and guidance. He's a hard worker but only if someone tells him what to do. All he needs is ONE chance, but that's hard to generate without the initiative.
Either way, I don't think the college degree is the end-all answer to some of these more fundamental [maturity] issues like it used to be. Now it's just four more years of delaying adulthood for many people.
I know a few teenagers, all four of which I'd say lack focus. Two of them specifically decided against college due to the degree devaluation. Initially I was impressed by the insight (that I perceived), but now I'm not so sure: They're hopping from short-term job to short-term job while whining about how things were better in high school without the bills (they're consumers) and all that responsibility (of paying them). That's a sad thing to hear from a 20 year old already! The third one is highly intelligent but lacks self-discipline and decided to dedicate her first year math studies to watching sitcoms and proceeded to fail her classes. She changed her major to something easier (and completely useless)---good thing (for her) the government is paying. The fourth one is a high school dropout. I wouldn't say it's a lack of focus, but more of a lack of initiative and guidance. He's a hard worker but only if someone tells him what to do. All he needs is ONE chance, but that's hard to generate without the initiative.
Either way, I don't think the college degree is the end-all answer to some of these more fundamental [maturity] issues like it used to be. Now it's just four more years of delaying adulthood for many people.
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George the original one
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George the original one
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"How do you fare without a college degree?"
Earn money, save money, invest, and take calculated risks.
Having a college degree only helps you earn more money... it does not particularly help with saving money and investing money. A degree might help with calculating risks before taking a plunge, but this seems to be more involved in a person's basic character.
As we've seen by plenty of examples, earning more money is useless if you're not saving money and investing it. If you're earning money and just using that as leverage to live more lavishily, then there is no long term benefit.
Earn money, save money, invest, and take calculated risks.
Having a college degree only helps you earn more money... it does not particularly help with saving money and investing money. A degree might help with calculating risks before taking a plunge, but this seems to be more involved in a person's basic character.
As we've seen by plenty of examples, earning more money is useless if you're not saving money and investing it. If you're earning money and just using that as leverage to live more lavishily, then there is no long term benefit.
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plantingourpennies
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BeyondtheWrap
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I value my education, a bachelor degree, but it didn't do much for me to advance in my career. It gave me exposure to a lot of different subjects and gave me writing skills.
I would have your kid go to a community college FOR SURE the first two years because there is no reason to go to an expensive school the first two years.
Besides an A.A or A.S. degree, I would make sure he learns about money management, saving, the prison of debt, and rejecting materialism.
That alone, will put him far ahead of the average person on the street who is a big consumer and always in debt their whole lives.
Make the kid understand that consuming does NOT produce happiness no matter how much advertising tries to convince him otherwise.
If the kid understands consumption, debt, money management, etc. then he will probably make good decisions regarding his own future education and whether or not it's worth it.
He will calculate the costs.
Just my opinion.
I would have your kid go to a community college FOR SURE the first two years because there is no reason to go to an expensive school the first two years.
Besides an A.A or A.S. degree, I would make sure he learns about money management, saving, the prison of debt, and rejecting materialism.
That alone, will put him far ahead of the average person on the street who is a big consumer and always in debt their whole lives.
Make the kid understand that consuming does NOT produce happiness no matter how much advertising tries to convince him otherwise.
If the kid understands consumption, debt, money management, etc. then he will probably make good decisions regarding his own future education and whether or not it's worth it.
He will calculate the costs.
Just my opinion.
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RealPerson
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@BeyondTheWrap - The quote is for tuition only, not room and board. Obviously, the total cost is more than that, We do not qualify for financial aid, but my son may well qualify for an athletic scholarship. He is an accomplished athlete.
I really appreciate the thoughts and suggestions from all responders. The outside perspective is always helpful.
I really appreciate the thoughts and suggestions from all responders. The outside perspective is always helpful.
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Dream of Freedom
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Does anyone else find it ironic that a group of people taking great lengths to quit their jobs should be asked career advice?
The sentence "My child does not have much focus and shows no interest in a craft such as electrician of carpenter. " That contains the assumption that focus is a problem here. I question that. If you blindfold someone and tell them to hit a pinata, do they have a better chance with a nice thin branch or a nice wide piece of plywood?
When I was his age they gave me a list of more than 200 careers I could pursue(CEO and beech bum were not on the list). Hundreds of collages and possibilities each with their own one sided sales pitch(brochures). It was overwhelming. It was analysis paralysis.
Fortunately we have developed tools to cope with large amounts of data, like statistics, generalizations and spreadsheets. I say split things into large categories. Find the one he likes. Rinse, lather and repeat. Or even leave all possibilities open and make a spreadsheet with information like how your kid rates the desirability on a scale of 1 to 10, expected income, cost, ect. If I only knew the what I know now. Good luck.
The sentence "My child does not have much focus and shows no interest in a craft such as electrician of carpenter. " That contains the assumption that focus is a problem here. I question that. If you blindfold someone and tell them to hit a pinata, do they have a better chance with a nice thin branch or a nice wide piece of plywood?
When I was his age they gave me a list of more than 200 careers I could pursue(CEO and beech bum were not on the list). Hundreds of collages and possibilities each with their own one sided sales pitch(brochures). It was overwhelming. It was analysis paralysis.
Fortunately we have developed tools to cope with large amounts of data, like statistics, generalizations and spreadsheets. I say split things into large categories. Find the one he likes. Rinse, lather and repeat. Or even leave all possibilities open and make a spreadsheet with information like how your kid rates the desirability on a scale of 1 to 10, expected income, cost, ect. If I only knew the what I know now. Good luck.
In my experience, a private university education fails to pay for itself. Especially given the inflated costs for low paying majors over the past decade ($200k for a degree in art history?!?!?!), I would not consider it.
$4-6k a year tuition for a state school? That's not much money, especially compared to what you've invested raising him so far. Also, I would not bankroll it.
Part of growing up is learning to find your way in life. Going to a public university for a few years is not a bad way to do that, especially if you have some skin in the game.
For me, having personal financial investment in my education had a big impact in how I approached things. It lead me to finish in 3 years instead of 4, get a part time job to help afford things during school, pick a high paying major and lead a low cost lifestyle when I got out (to pay off $50k in loans.) A lot of my current financial success is due to lessons learned paying for my education.
$4-6k a year tuition for a state school? That's not much money, especially compared to what you've invested raising him so far. Also, I would not bankroll it.
Part of growing up is learning to find your way in life. Going to a public university for a few years is not a bad way to do that, especially if you have some skin in the game.
For me, having personal financial investment in my education had a big impact in how I approached things. It lead me to finish in 3 years instead of 4, get a part time job to help afford things during school, pick a high paying major and lead a low cost lifestyle when I got out (to pay off $50k in loans.) A lot of my current financial success is due to lessons learned paying for my education.
I remember on another forum this question came up.
Somebody posted...
"I'm a doctor.
My brother is a plumber.
He makes more money than I do and he doesn't have $280,000 in student loans."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A75KERKwEQM
Somebody posted...
"I'm a doctor.
My brother is a plumber.
He makes more money than I do and he doesn't have $280,000 in student loans."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A75KERKwEQM
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Spartan_Warrior
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@George said what I was going to say here:
"> college is for him first of all a place to grow
> up a little and develop some focus.
Then you are going to have an expensive baby-sitter. There are far more economical ways to deal with this."
I speak from experience. College is better for grown-ups, not growing up. I was also rather directionless and went into college right after HS simply because it was touted as "the next step". I waffled through several majors and ended up with two "soft science"/humanities degrees that are completely unrelated to my current career (which I ended up in through entry-level internships and personal connections) simply because at that stage I didn't really understand money, work, or what I wanted out of life. If I had "grown up" first outside of college, I feel like I could have made some better choices and had a better outcome. (I was fortunate enough to have scholarships paying most of my way so I still ended up with less debt than most people who buy new cars--but YMMV.)
The military doesn't sound like a bad idea at all. Otherwise, perhaps a passport, backpack, and/or bus pass. Or, just tell him to get a job (with or without college). Any of these would give him some responsibility for himself and experience with the real world.*
I will also add that the "college experience" of becoming an alcoholic in a dorm is most definitely NOT worth the added cost, nor will it assist in any way in the whole "growing up" thing. Typically you will be paying for both the dorm room and a meal plan--in my case the cost of these was equal to the tuition. If I could do it over again now I would've lived at home the whole time or found accommodations off-campus.
*Or just give him a copy of Your Money Or Your Life and the ERE book.
"> college is for him first of all a place to grow
> up a little and develop some focus.
Then you are going to have an expensive baby-sitter. There are far more economical ways to deal with this."
I speak from experience. College is better for grown-ups, not growing up. I was also rather directionless and went into college right after HS simply because it was touted as "the next step". I waffled through several majors and ended up with two "soft science"/humanities degrees that are completely unrelated to my current career (which I ended up in through entry-level internships and personal connections) simply because at that stage I didn't really understand money, work, or what I wanted out of life. If I had "grown up" first outside of college, I feel like I could have made some better choices and had a better outcome. (I was fortunate enough to have scholarships paying most of my way so I still ended up with less debt than most people who buy new cars--but YMMV.)
The military doesn't sound like a bad idea at all. Otherwise, perhaps a passport, backpack, and/or bus pass. Or, just tell him to get a job (with or without college). Any of these would give him some responsibility for himself and experience with the real world.*
I will also add that the "college experience" of becoming an alcoholic in a dorm is most definitely NOT worth the added cost, nor will it assist in any way in the whole "growing up" thing. Typically you will be paying for both the dorm room and a meal plan--in my case the cost of these was equal to the tuition. If I could do it over again now I would've lived at home the whole time or found accommodations off-campus.
*Or just give him a copy of Your Money Or Your Life and the ERE book.
I would say that you won't find personal answers in aggregate figures -- almost no one lives an aggregate life, so whether college is better or worse on an average basis is probably not a very useful metric.
That being said, I think its best to do separate analyses of "college as a financial decision" from "college as a life experience". As a financial decision, you are essentially paying for the sheepskin, so don't overpay for it. I.e., don't pay first-rate money for a second-rate degree, as measured by the likely marketability for that degree, taking into account both the school and subject. And pay as little as possible if the degree selection is unknown.
As a life experience, it needs to be compared against the alternatives, which as outlined above seem to be (1) get a job somewhere; (2) join the military; (3) enlist in some other program; (4) do nothing and stay at your house.
You may need to accept that most of it the foregoing is out of your control, simply because its his life to live, not yours. Kid has to make his own decisions and be responsible for them. Sounds like he's got his mind set on going to college. I would not argue with him on it, but decide to what limits you will support him and make it clear that you are not paying for a vacation. You may need to set some rules up front as to what measures of performance will be required to continue financial support and what items you will not pay for. College is only a "vacation" if you can always call home to get more money. It's all about rules and expectations there. And budgets.
That being said, I think its best to do separate analyses of "college as a financial decision" from "college as a life experience". As a financial decision, you are essentially paying for the sheepskin, so don't overpay for it. I.e., don't pay first-rate money for a second-rate degree, as measured by the likely marketability for that degree, taking into account both the school and subject. And pay as little as possible if the degree selection is unknown.
As a life experience, it needs to be compared against the alternatives, which as outlined above seem to be (1) get a job somewhere; (2) join the military; (3) enlist in some other program; (4) do nothing and stay at your house.
You may need to accept that most of it the foregoing is out of your control, simply because its his life to live, not yours. Kid has to make his own decisions and be responsible for them. Sounds like he's got his mind set on going to college. I would not argue with him on it, but decide to what limits you will support him and make it clear that you are not paying for a vacation. You may need to set some rules up front as to what measures of performance will be required to continue financial support and what items you will not pay for. College is only a "vacation" if you can always call home to get more money. It's all about rules and expectations there. And budgets.