Anyone had a will done? Suggestions?

[Peanut]

I have a free consultation with a lawyer next week about estate planning. I’m sure they will say we need a will bc that’s what they do. Especially if you have kids, how did you handle this? And how much if anything did you pay for the legal work?

We know who we would want to take guardianship (a sibling and spouse) in the event something happened to both of us and they have agreed. I’ve read that probate or whatever it’s called can take time and money, and a will or trust is useful in saving both. I’m wondering if this is overstated tho.

I’m also curious what the custom is for financial management. Do we stipulate a yearly child support payout? Do we pay the guardians anything? (Or is that a really bad idea bc it monetizes a loving familial relationship?) And then do we apportion money for higher ed or just deliver a lump sum when children reach majority age? Any experiences you have had or suggestions are much appreciated.

[rube]

The notary (different country) gave us a couple of options to arrange things as we wanted. One of them was to marry and that is what we did. Apart from the small party, it was also the cheapest option .

[Peanut]

Oh we are married, I am just concerned if we are both removed from the picture what would happen to the kids’ financial futures.

[chenda]

Yes, a few hundred pounds with a solicitor to get a proper one drawn up. I don't know about children I'm sure they can advise; I believe its sometimes recommended that there is a trusted 3rd party who can have some oversight if the guardian goes corrupt or something.

[IlliniDave]

Without a will typically a probate judge will decide what happens with the esstate in accordance with state guidelines. For example, in my state everything won't necessarily go to the children, as siblings and parents could be given a percentage at the judge's discretion. So one thing to ask about or look up is how that would work in your state.

People often set up trusts for minor children (and sometimes for adult children and/or grandchildren). I'm sure the atty will probably discuss that with you, there are advantages and disadvantages. A few hundred dollars will usually get you a good will, maybe 250 or so if you find a discount firm and are okay with a boiler plate solution. Setting up a trust is more expensive, around $4K where I live. I don't have one because my kids are adults and I'll be redoing my will when I change states in 15-18 mos or so. I haven't decided if I'll stick with a simple will or set up a trust for the long run.

Probate can be time consuming and expensive, especially if there are a lot of interested parties vying for certain outcomes. We almost had to probate my mom's estate (despite her having a will) because of some irregularities on the title of some farm property. Fortunately we were able to avoid it but the estimate I was given was about $2,500 to go through that if we'd have had to.

[bostonimproper]

We had our whole estate done in one go (will, trust, minor guardianship, power of atty, health proxy) and paid $3.5k-ish for it. Honestly, felt like our attorney just plugged our names into a template. Didn't seem super worth it, but whoooo knoooows. I'll be dead before I find out.

My friend's will has a provision to pay trustees $100/hour for administration. Nothing for guardians. We don't pay anyone in our wills. Kids are apportioned assets equally and get access to estate at 25. We don't put a ton of restrictions on our guardians/trustees, but we have a very high level of trust for them and felt flexibility was more important.

[The Old Man]

I used software from NOLO for a will, trust, health care POA, and financial POA. Cost about$100 plus notary fees.

ERE is focused on DIY. First decide if you can DIY (with software and book help) and then seek an attorney if what you are trying to accomplish is beyond what a DIY approach can do. Additionally, you should also research probate for your state/country.

[The Old Man]

We almost had to probate my mom's estate (despite her having a will) because of some irregularities on the title of some farm property.

Probate cannot be bypassed with a will. The only thing a will does is to make explicit the wishes of the deceased (thus replacing the state guidelines) that would then be administered in probate.

What you are referring to are the ownership provisions in the real estate title. Some titles provide directions when owners die (such as Joint Tenants with the Rights of Survivorship).

[IlliniDave]

Probate cannot be bypassed with a will. The only thing a will does is to make explicit the wishes of the deceased (thus replacing the state guidelines) that would then be administered in probate.

What you are referring to are the ownership provisions in the real estate title. Some titles provide directions when owners die (such as Joint Tenants with the Rights of Survivorship).

Hmm. Interesting. My mom's estate attorney is an old family friend and I'll have to ask him about it next time I see him. He was able to get the title issue clarified/resolved without going through probate. As far as I know the only involvement with probate court was when the will was "filed" (or whatever the term is) with the probate court prior to her death. Maybe our situation was unusual in some way, or I misunderstood what was happening.

[Sclass]

Probate cannot be bypassed with a will. The only thing a will does is to make explicit the wishes of the deceased (thus replacing the state guidelines) that would then be administered in probate.

What you are referring to are the ownership provisions in the real estate title. Some titles provide directions when owners die (such as Joint Tenants with the Rights of Survivorship).

This was my understanding with my mom in CA. She had a significant estate to transfer after she died. No will no trust. Her investment manager suggested to use Beneficiary accounts till I could formalize something. I put myself as sole beneficiary...temporarily till I could get a commitment for mom’s care from my siblings. I decided to add myself to the title of her home at the same time. Joint tenants with rights of survivorship. This had property tax benefits in California.

Mom slipped into advanced dementia and couldn’t make a will. My siblings tiptoed around the w word but would run away when I said I needed help caring for mom before we could discuss this.

What started as kind of a lazy backstop to avoid probate worked out pretty well. Makes me wonder why people obsess over wills and trusts.

It took a few phone calls and a month to collect everything up. No judge, court, lawyer or will. My siblings are still wondering exactly what happened.

Someday I may tell them something like, “oh there was a will, you just weren’t in it”.

[basuragomi]

We spent C$2,000 on wills, powers of attorney and powers of care. Any flaw in a DIY will could cause the whole thing to be thrown out since you're not a lawyer and it's assumed you have no idea what you're doing. Even though the lawyers use standard templates as well and often don't read the clauses themselves.

One big thing about children, if they are not capable and unlikely to become capable soon (e.g. very young or profoundly disabled), any level of assets you leave to them may disqualify them from access to state-funded support systems, like group homes or rehabilitative care. Here in Canada the typical approach is to set up a special class of trust to provide for them without actually giving them assets.

Absolute least hassle way is to set up your various financial accounts and major assets as tenants in common with rights of survivorship with your primary heir(s). Specify any other payments or terms to be paid to secondary heirs from those accounts. Then probate court would have fewer things to consider so everything should go faster. In Canada, there is a 0.5% probate tax on every asset that passes through probate - tenants in common bypasses probate, so avoids that tax. On a million dollar account, that's far more than you'd pay a lawyer for a will.

[The Old Man]

What started as kind of a lazy backstop to avoid probate worked out pretty well. Makes me wonder why people obsess over wills and trusts.

Payable on Death (bank accounts), Transfer on Death (investment accounts), Transfer on Death (real estate for certain states), Joint Tenants (real estate), and Joint Accounts (various) will bypass probate and won't require the services of an attorney.

Trusts should only be used for those circumstances where the above provisions are not suitable.

Wills provide guidance to the probate court, so only applies to those assets not otherwise dispositioned. It is a useful backstop to trusts and the other beneficiary arrangements discussed above.

When dealing with attorneys it is important to note that they only make money when they do things for you - such as create a trust. A free session is a sales opportunity for them to convince you that you need a trust.

Estate Planning encompasses many different considerations of which law is only one. The best course of action is to read some books and evaluate the suitability of the DIY (software) options. If you do go to an attorney then you would be much better informed and whatever the attorney does for you would be more appropriate for your circumstances.

"Beyond the Grave" by Jeffrey Condon is a good book on estate planning. Books by NOLO are also good.

[Peanut]

Thank you all! Very interesting experiences and numbers. Looks like I have some reading to do. And some calling to do to see how our assets are set up.

I do not want to pay anyone 3-4k for this. I was thinking 1k would be my max. So I'm guessing they will laugh me out of the office, but that's fine. I'll have some good questions to ask about my state laws which we'll see if they can answer.

I've come to the conclusion that paying guardians is not advisable. I wonder how to handle added costs of raising children, though. I should probably just have a conversation with the actual designated guardians to make our druthers known. I wouldn't want them to use much of their own money at all, but I'd want them not to blow the kids' money on whatever they happened to ask for (you know, like a playstation etc.). I do trust their judgment, so I should probably not try to exert too much control.

[The Old Man]

@Peanut: I am not an attorney, so take my suggestions as a non-professional.

When I created my DIY revocable trust the provisions created a children's sub-trust for the minors who would be receiving the majority of the assets. The DIY provisions granted the trustee of the children's subtrust the freedom to use the trust assets as the trustee saw fit such that it benefited the child. There was no other control language. The customization available in a DIY approach is limited.

In your case it depends on the amount of funds that we are talking about. If there isn't that much, then it may be simplest to just give the funds to the guardian in the expectation that the funds would be spent on supporting the children. If there are substantial funds, then a trust or children's sub-trust may be the best course of action. Given the limited customization available in a DIY software approach, then it would probably be best to have an attorney draw up the documents. Whatever you do, have a discussion with the guardian for their opinion.

[The Old Man]

Her investment manager suggested to use Beneficiary accounts till I could formalize something. I put myself as sole beneficiary...I decided to add myself to the title of her home at the same time...Mom slipped into advanced dementia and couldn’t make a will.

For the benefit of future readers, lets discuss this post. Before starting I will state that in all likelihood Sclass misspoke and that what was described here did not happen in the manner that Sclass described.

Remember that for beneficiary designations you can do NOTHING. These decisions were for your mother alone. Even a Power of Attorney provides for only limited power under specific circumstances for changing beneficiary designations. Even the appearance of self-dealing needs to be avoided.

Normally beneficiary designations require a signed paper form which in this case would have your mother’s signature. These days, however, with online access it is possible to change the beneficiary designations online and thus it is possible for someone who is not authorized (such as Sclass) to make changes.

Be aware that the appearance of undue influence on your mother (since your mother could be argued to be not of sound mind due to the onset of Alzheimer’s/dementia) to change the beneficiary designations could easily open yourself up to a lawsuit from your siblings. What you gained in the inheritance could be clawed back in such a lawsuit. You siblings have nothing to lose and even with a poor case could even negotiate a settlement.

Someday I may tell them something like, “oh there was a will, you just weren’t in it”.

Why are you being the asshole? These kinds of statements can motivate your siblings to file a lawsuit. The discovery process will find out what actually happened. Is there enough evidence to suggest undue influence or even the appearance of undue influence? Your statements here – whether accurate or not – strongly suggest undue influence. Unless you want to be the target of a lawsuit – frivolous or otherwise – be nice to your siblings.

[IlliniDave]

I've come to the conclusion that paying guardians is not advisable. I wonder how to handle added costs of raising children, though. I should probably just have a conversation with the actual designated guardians to make our druthers known. I wouldn't want them to use much of their own money at all, but I'd want them not to blow the kids' money on whatever they happened to ask for (you know, like a playstation etc.). I do trust their judgment, so I should probably not try to exert too much control.

This is one of the reasons you might consider a trust and even naming someone other than the future guardians as trustee. The trust could pay some amount to the guardians on a periodic basis for basic child support, and perhaps have some named exceptions like large medical expenses and tuition. The trustee would serve as a check/balance to the guardian so the guardian won't decide something like: "these kids should be driven to school in a new Ferrari!" with nothing to stop them from acting on it

Trusts can be a bit of a headache for guardians even when they're the trustee as well, so there's that to consider too. And the devil's often in the details, some of which can vary state-to-state.

The expense is a tough one. Personally, I'm concerned about botching up a DIY estate plan and therefore too chicken to do it, but lawyers are expensive and they can botch stuff up too.

[Peanut]

@The Old Man: Ok, I agree the story SClass outlined was fascinatingly sketchy. But do not call him names! If you ever read the saga of his family, you would understand he was the only one in the entire family who gave a rat's ass about his mother, taking on years of her end-of-life care by himself. Whatever he decided to do was right, and hopefully it didn't put him in a precarious legal position.

[Peanut]

@ID: Thanks for the suggestions. The couple is the most capable and financially savvy of any of the candidates though, so I think it would only complicate things or introduce downside to involve anyone else. They're not as frugal as I am but that doesn't matter in the big scheme of things.

I read somewhere online that the lawyer you have draw up your estate plan should be a specialist, which means they spend at least 75% of their time on it. So just any lawyer with experience is not a high enough bar. At least then you are more confident of no mistakes.

[TopHatFox]

I used software from NOLO for a will, trust, health care POA, and financial POA. Cost about$100 plus notary fees.

ERE is focused on DIY. First decide if you can DIY (with software and book help) and then seek an attorney if what you are trying to accomplish is beyond what a DIY approach can do. Additionally, you should also research probate for your state/country.

I need to to do these four at some point for me and the parents. What software and books did you use and would you still recommend them?

[Sclass]

For the benefit of future readers, lets discuss this post. Before starting I will state that in all likelihood Sclass misspoke and that what was described here did not happen in the manner that Sclass described.

.....Why are you being the asshole?

Unless you want to be the target of a lawsuit – frivolous or otherwise – be nice to your siblings.

Thank you for the wise advice @oldman. I will not taunt my siblings.

I recounted the story unclearly. Dementia was a decade long journey for my mom. I mistakenly made it sound like I put all this plan in motion at the end. As it happened, I filed everything at the beginning. Mom’s investment manager rushed me to get her to sign the designated beneficiary paperwork as soon as he noticed her memory lapses. I sat her down with her attorney and notary and we set everything up properly.

It was a stop gap effort as soon as we saw trouble. Her attorney wanted to do a trust but I said let’s wait till another trip because it was getting late. He died shortly after (he’d been her lawyer for the last fifty years) our meeting. I never revisited the issue again for another ten years till she died. My siblings made it easier by avoiding us. They only showed up at the end wondering if there was anything left for them.

I’m still mad at my family for avoiding this big problem. It makes me act like an asshole. Thank you for shaking some sense into me. The last thing I want to do is rile them up.

Can they sue me? Yeah I guess so. They’re not early retired. Not wealthy. Probably cannot put up a lengthy legal fight. Me, I have a large inheritance that I don’t even need. Money I’m ashamed of for not using on more luxurious care for my mom. At the time I made the excuse that I didn’t know how long it had to last but when she died and my hands were full of her cash I almost died of regret. I’d happily destroy it to tie my siblings up in endless litigation. I’d take pleasure in hurting them financially. Ahh there’s that asshole again.