Student Loan Delinquencies - Next Recession Trigger?

[Stahlmann]

...

[Mister Imperceptible]

It’s hard for educated men to commit to marriage when the Karley Sciortino’s of the world are having foursomes with them. What was that about buying cows when the milk is free, or having cake and eating it too?

Oh, those double-edged swords.

[Jason]

Mister Imperceptible, you seem to have had a lot of strange dates.

This reads like the opening dialogue of a futuristic detective series.

In any event, I am a fan of any thread that begins as a humdrum reckoning of basic financial indicators and veers into general dystopia.

[ZAFCorrection]

@MI

The question is how many women are actually Karley Sciortino. Somehow all the extensive MRA analysis of The Female hinges on a couple of anecdotes with no real attempt made to confirm that this is a widespread problem. I can point to some women who are not like her, so it must mean it is not a problem.

[Peanut]

Poor Karley. I have to blame her parents first for everything from giving her that awful name to instilling such a sense of hubris and snobbery in her. So much peak Millenial sentiment it felt like it was meant to be a satire. But maybe she’s finally figuring some stuff out. And she seems to be doing alright if she’s publishing in Vogue.

There are some hard truths women don’t like to hear. One is no, she does not intimidate anyone. He was just letting her down easy. Two is that her best (not only but best) chance of finding true love is between 18-28. That Princeton Mom was derided but she was giving practical advice. Three is that studies suggest the more sex partners women have the unhappier they will likely be. It doesn’t mean a girl should marry her first or fourth boyfriend, but she shouldn’t rule it out as a matter of course either.

[Kriegsspiel]

@MI

The question is how many women are actually Karley Sciortino. Somehow all the extensive MRA analysis of The Female hinges on a couple of anecdotes with no real attempt made to confirm that this is a widespread problem. I can point to some women who are not like her, so it must mean it is not a problem.

Well, that would lead to type II error. Smashter said he wasn't aware a thing existed. I provided examples, so that he can now be aware.

It seems like everyone is fixated on Karley (who just said she might freeze her eggs and I filled in the second part). I included her article for context on what could lead women to AI + SM, and because I... saw it in my folder. The pertinent links were the other ones where the females explicitly said they were AI-ing their way to single motherhood.

[7Wannabe5]

I think you guys are being too hard on Karley and company. My youngest sister married quite well in her late 30s (PhD who looks like Antonio Banderas) and her take on the market is that the best men tend to err on the side of just going for hawt when they are young and only age into shopping harder for smart, funny, etc. Therefore, it pays to wait for them to get their ya-yas out.

Also, it would be very difficult for me to intimidate a man with my career success, but I have definitely dated men who were intimidated by something as trivial as the fact that I was taller, so I think it could happen. I think it is also likely that men are sometimes intimidated by my vocabulary, because one of my BF's later told me that his impression of our first date was "The words kept on coming, but I just focused on the lips.", and on one occasion a guy wrote me an angry e-mail accusing me of being "uppity" just on the basis of my dating profile essay. I have dated quite a few men who were relatively more street or Street smart vs. book smart than me, and they almost always just handle it along the lines of "heh, heh, heh, listen to the little library girl." Much more likely that a G3 type who prides himself mostly on his brains would be intimidated, because he wouldn't have any other power quadrant.

Anyways, most men are perfectly capable of convincing themselves that you are listening to them with empathy, if they are thinking about getting into your shirt. I mean, you could be scarfing down "free" surf n turf with a bib around your neck and saying "Sucks to be you." in response to anything he says, but a second date is already in the bag as soon as he says "You have such pretty eyes" or " You haves such pretty hair."

[Mister Imperceptible]

Mister Imperceptible, you seem to have had a lot of strange dates. For example, you met up with a woman for dinner for what she considered a business meeting.

A lot of strange dates indeed! My bad dates are strewn about the romantic failscape like so many burnt corpses and broken chariot wheels. I might have to write a book of my own one day, but must be careful of baring my soul before the boards and particularly an earnest and intrepid Confuciana who is already published herself.

It was a business meeting in the sense that I was asked explicitly what my income was and what my net worth was. I had thought I was going on a date with a woman who had blood that was warmer than a reptile’s. Silly me.

Would you rather have a strong community, and get ostracized/shamed/burned at the stake for being divorced or having sex out of wedlock?
OR
Would you rather have sexual relationships without strings or condemnation, but in the context of a fragmented society?

I can see why people think I want women to get back in the kitchen when I am merely pointing out the law of compensation.

I am not in the least threatened by a capable woman, a successful woman, or a physically robust woman.

If Erin Brockovich asked me to take care of the kids, I would ask what she wanted for dinner, and then I would rush into a locked room, weep tears of joy and apologize to God for having denied His existence.

[Kriegsspiel]

I think you guys are being too hard on Karley and company.

I think she sounds fun, personally. I don't think she would have troubling convincing some dude to marry her either. Just dial down the orgies for a year or whatever.

My youngest sister married quite well in her late 30s (PhD who looks like Antonio Banderas)

Ouch, does she at least have a good rack?

her take on the market is that the best men tend to err on the side of just going for hawt when they are young and only age into shopping harder for smart, funny, etc. Therefore, it pays to wait for them to get their ya-yas out.

"err"

LOL

[7Wannabe5]

I think she sounds fun, personally. I don't think she would have troubling convincing some dude to marry her either. Just dial down the orgies for a year or whatever.

Right. It's not really very difficult to revert to standard social expectations. Everybody and their mother is always willing to help you find the straight path to salvation again. Just got to dig your LB looking for a husband dress out of the closet and assume the receiving end of contract position. I also don't think she has all that much in common with the "can't find a man up to my standard" gripers, since she apparently doesn't have too much trouble finding a couple guys up to her standard on occasion (at self too.) Difference between liking men a little too much to make up your mind vs. really not liking men all that much.

It was a business meeting in the sense that I was asked explicitly what my income was and what my net worth was.

Yeah, I guess that is worse than having a man tell you the results of his last physical exam and his net worth on a first date.

[George the original one]

Is artificial insemination + single motherhood a thing now?

Oh, it's not even new. Was going on even with us tail-end boomers. One of my ex-girlfriends did that back in '99 or '00. Her daughter is now in college.

[CS]

@cimorene12

I think that Sanford undergrad has her shit together and sounds great. She knows what she wants and is going for it. If a guy has it, she'll like him. Or probably more accurately, she is establishing whether or not the bare minimum is there for her to then decide if she likes him or not (based on whatever else, such as looks). Part of what she is looking for is not just the patents and the companies, but the *personality and drive* it would take to get those patents and start those companies.

As someone who married 'poor' and help raise that person to a higher level, I say never again. Any future guy has to have his shit together financially or I won't even consider it - no matter what other qualities he has. No exceptions. I can see how everyone's definition of having 'financial shit together' can be different, which is where I come to think Ms.Stanford is spot on. She knows her level.

A huge reason why marrying down does not work for women because men tend to get angry about it. Unpleasantly hostile. Mean (really mean). Not all men, but enough that it's messing with women's abilities to find mates. There are few men secure enough to be attracted to a woman who is honestly smarter than him, more competent, earns more, whatever the metric. Marrying down wouldn't be such a problem for most women, honestly, if it wasn't such a problem for MOST MEN. This cannot be overemphasized. Scroll through this thread and shades of that anger pop out. See the glee when women can't find mates, for one instance.

[7Wannabe5]

Guys who tell you their net worth on the first date without you asking are also not the greatest. Their expectations may not equal reality.

I am curious about what you think their expectations might be. I am mostly just being silly, and I really shouldn't put my two cents into the mix, because dating in the post-reproductive years is very much the same, but also quite different than dating in youth. I am happy that my DD27 is getting married before 30, because I always advised her that completing college, putting in a few years at career, then combining graduate school with early maternity would be a good combination, because infant care and grad school require and provide almost the exact opposite qualities. However, it doesn't follow that I think marriage is the best choice for older folk or anybody who does not want to have a family. I will probably end up stuck taking care of some old guy(s) in my declining years, but that will be due to the fact that I have poor boundaries and feel sorry for the old grizzled muzzles when they feel compelled to tell me their PSA and 401k numbers in search of acceptance.

On a more positive note, old guys are much more accepting of multiple lovers, because they like the little kick to their competitive juices, and they have the life experience that enables them to sort out the real from the ideal, or value vs. validation. For instance, when you are 52 having sex for the first time with 62, and you orgasm very easily, you will likely both chuckle afterwards when he says "Well, either you like me a great deal, or that's just how you are." IOW, with maturity and experience of many relationships, you come to realize that nothing about your partner(s) can alter the fact that you just are how you are, so then you are also free to enjoy others on that basis. It's like being in the phase of life that is equivalent to the take-outs that roll on the screen after the credits.

A huge reason why marrying down does not work for women because men tend to get angry about it. Unpleasantly hostile. Mean (really mean). Not all men, but enough that it's messing with women's abilities to find mates. There are few men secure enough to be attracted to a woman who is honestly smarter than him, more competent, earns more, whatever the metric. Marrying down wouldn't be such a problem for most women, honestly, if it wasn't such a problem for MOST MEN. This cannot be overemphasized. Scroll through this thread and shades of that anger pop out. See the glee when women can't find mates, for one instance.

I think the truth of the matter is that most men have a core desire to be respected. Known thing that respect raises testosterone levels and testosterone is a mood brightening chemical. So, it is important to ask yourself whether there is some basis on which you can manifest respect for a man before entering into significant relationship with him. Sometimes this can be on a very simple subconscious level. For instance, how likely is it that you would immediately follow instruction from your partner in an emergency situation might be a good way to assess your true take on his strength, concern for your well-being, and competence. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that the time he fled from the bedroom, slamming the door behind him, leaving you alone with the bat flying overhead, is absolutely unforgivable. In my experience, one very good thing about most men is that they will still look out for you even when they are very angry IFF you let them.

[Jason]

If you meet a woman who treats you as if your value depends on your net worth and income and shows her true colors on the first date, run for your life. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

This might depend on your definition of "date."

[Mister Imperceptible]

Dating Mister Imperceptible's librarian would've been okay for me if she projected that she'd be able to keep up her student loan payments.

This is what I mean, there was an attitude that the world would have to conform to her desires, up to and including paying off her debts and allowing her to be a mother. “Hold my breath until the world revolves around me.”

Your description of the goings on in Silicon Valley is decadent and poisonous. What uninspiring people.

[jacob]

How did we get to here from recession triggers? Lately it seems like very many forum threads lead to debating bad relationship/dating experiences no matter what the starting point is?!

Anyway, the delinquency (and dating attitudes) and resulting recessions or breakups likely relates to how people individually perceive student debt.
I've seen these attitudes demonstrated:

1. Wot dis I'm in default? Does that mean I can't get a car loan? What do you mean I can not pay my student loan back whenever I want to?! [Calls parents] Could you please co-sign my loan so I can buy this car?
2. I was always told to borrow the maximum possible because you'll never get a better interest rate than on your student loans.
3. Oh yeah, I also have $XYZ,000 in student loans, but a student loan is not real debt. It's an investment in my future and it's tax-deductible.
4. Any debt is an emergency and I'm not going to spend a dime until it's paid back

Here 1 and 4 are recession generators while 2 and 3 are not. As for marriage material, the four types don't mix easily as they represent wildly different [future] "discount rates" from living in the moment with a 30 minute planning horizon to living in the future with a horizon measured in decades.

[Mister Imperceptible]

I started it, but I was only trying to illustrate the recession generative sense of entitlement you just described.

Sorry, I might be mixing in too much of the autobiographical and anecdotal, but “the word on the street” says that society collectively believes that forever expanding debts and consumption has no consequences.

[BeyondtheWrap]

I was recently dating a woman who had over $100k in student loan debt. She had a degree in library and information sciences. As a librarian, even is she got some fabulous job working for the Library of Congress, she was looking at a max potential income of maybe $50k a year. She said that the only way for her to pay off her debts was government intervention.

Sounds like she’d be a good candidate for the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program. 10 years at a public library, then the loan will be gone. If she’s on Income-Based Repayment, she’d probably only end up having to pay close to half of the amount over that time.

[Clarice]

We should probably just start a random relationship thread and when they get derailed move the conversation over there. There's a reason shakespeare endures, while no one cares much about 16th century economic problems though.

Ha-ha! Very true! +1

[CS]

I think the truth of the matter is that most men have a core desire to be respected. Known thing that respect raises testosterone levels and testosterone is a mood brightening chemical. So, it is important to ask yourself whether there is some basis on which you can manifest respect for a man before entering into significant relationship with him. Sometimes this can be on a very simple subconscious level. For instance, how likely is it that you would immediately follow instruction from your partner in an emergency situation might be a good way to assess your true take on his strength, concern for your well-being, and competence.

I think the problem is that too many men conflate respect with dominance. Apparently, 'a person can't be respected unless they are the dominant one' is a real configuration in some people's minds. Your example itself is of dominance in an emergency situation, no?

@cimorene12

I hear you on the financial criteria of men taking care of themselves. The money examples you list of fancy dates all have an element of control attached. The flip side of taking a woman on a super exotic vacation is that the man controls her exit (nominally). She can't hire a private plane to get the heck out of there.

One thing I cannot tolerate is women being berated for having standards (I'm not saying you did this - I'm just explaining my position). They might not be standards you have, or I, but if that is their criteria, then that is their right. Shaming them, etc is a form of bullying. Men do it get control. 'How dare she have a standard that excludes me...' is the long and the short of it. Yes, she does. Too bad for you, rando guy. Find a better match and move on...

Personally, I'd love to have a partner who could pay his own way for adventures around the world - and is open to trying new things. But to put my money where my mouth is, I'd actually have to try dating again, lol! Someday.