Lending a girlfriend money

[7Wannabe5]

I think this question has basically the same answer as when a BF asks me if I would be willing to make arrangements for a 3-some with another female.

[jacob]

I don't know if that is true, but this happening so early does bother me a lot because of these implications for if we tried to live together. She is not the kind of person who may ever have a career type job and the requisite frugality to live beyond paycheck to paycheck, although I have hope for her, it is just hard to see it happening anytime soon.

Your partner will become part of your web-of-goals in the sense that you will both live in the same web. You can of course try to keep the webs separate in some sense.

To phrase using the ERE book terms the question is then whether your partner's goals are homeotelic or heterotelic to those goals. Couples that are completely aligned are power couples and reach goals quickly and easily. If they are not aligned, then the partner goals will either have a neutral effect on you (but probably allow for more serendipity) or they will work directly against you (which will grow you as a person but not necessarily in a good way).

There's more to life than finance, but if FI is the most important to you in the world, then having that aligned is more important than whether you align on your preference for TV serials. Paycheck to paycheck is not necessarily opposed to ERE although it is opposed to FIRE. A person who is able to cover their own ass always being able to finding an income and being frugal enough to live that way is actually more compatible with ERE than a person who slow-FIREs. It's easier to live with the workman quadrant than it is to deal with the salaryman quadrant.

Since this is obviously an issue, you probably need to have a long and boring conversation about how FI is very important to you and how lending out money this way makes you unhappy, etc.

[Jason]

@2B1S

I was serious. For me, this has nothing to do with relationships, women, feminism, money, trust, Warren Buffet or fuck all. I just hate fucking cats. If it was up to me I'd round them all up and send them back to Catland or wherever the fuck they come from. And if that meant separating the kittens from the cats, well so be it. I would actually lock up Giskard's 6 month and already asking for money brokeass girlfriend for aiding and abetting and even going so far as taxing our medical community for trying to perpetuate a cat's life and Giskard as well if he proves stupid enough to fucking fund it. I would make the penalties for posting cat videos steeper than kiddie porn. And you can forget about the 9 lives. That's out. I mean that's what, 9 x $1500 for Giskard. No relationship going to survive that on-going cost. I mean look at the stress its causing him the first time around.

You know I had an uncle who had diabetes and they told him you can live if we cut your foot off or you can keep both and die. He chose to keep both. You know you have to discriminate between surgeries that just postpone death as opposed to the ones that significantly perpetuate a life. He didn't feel like living for a few more years with one foot was worth it. I did a google and it seems the average live span of an indoor cat is 17 years. So my question is, how old is this fucking cat? Is it like 16 1/2? Are you spending like $1,500 for a matter of months? I mean is this some mangey half dead Bill The Cat type creature that walks around looking like its in a constant state of electrocution? But damn this thread seems similar to the girl who was babysitting for free.

[Jason]

I think this question has basically the same answer as when a BF asks me if I would be willing to make arrangements for a 3-some with another female.

"Sorry, this all the p****y you're getting."

[The Old Man]

This is the thing bothering me most. If we live together how often will this happen? I will not be able to reach FI because she will always "need" something, and she may not necessarily be relied upon to contribute equally to expenses. I don't know if that is true, but this happening so early does bother me a lot because of these implications for if we tried to live together. She is not the kind of person who may ever have a career type job and the requisite frugality to live beyond paycheck to paycheck, although I have hope for her, it is just hard to see it happening anytime soon.

While I disagree with much of Feminism, I believe that Feminism has the correct answer for this situation. Women are strong and independent and don't need a man. They may want a man, but they don't need one. In this case you are trying to find out if she wants you for you or needs your money. This issue will answer that question. If she stays with you even though you don't give her the money, then that is a VERY strong indicator that she wants you (and not your money). When you are married things will change because the money is no longer yours but becomes "our money", but it is important to establish boundaries and now is as good a time as ever.

[prognastat]

I would say first of it would be unreasonable for her to expect you to cough up the money without even asking so I probably wouldn't even bring it up unless she does.

What has she done so far to be able to afford it herself? Others have mentioned attempting to get a loan if a regular one isn't possible does she have any family she could borrow from? It seems with a relationship thats only 6 months in it would be more reasonable to go to family rather than a new boyfriend. Has she tried finding a temporary side-gig to earn some money? Could she put it on a credit card?

How reliable has she been in paying back before? You say she has always paid it back, but how much does she pay back and in what kind of time frame? Given that you say you can't see her paying back $1500 I'm assuming previous times have been minor amounts and took a little longer than you would have expected for such an amount to be paid back?

Finally as others have also mentioned this is going to affect your relationship either way and it depends on what you want and are willing to risk. If you don't do it chances are high it will negatively impact your relationship, given that she herself is ok with spending that amount on her cat she is probably going to not accept you not willing to pay that and this will cause a rift. However, if you do pay it you are setting up a dynamic where it is ok for her to rely on you for large sums of money rather than being able to take care of her own responsibilities. Is that the kind of relationship you want or is the rest of the relationship worth that? Given that she has needed multiple smaller loans from you now and might need a much larger one from you now this does seem like recurring behaviour that is unlikely to end after this.

Personally I don't think I would be comfortable with making such a loan early on in a relationship myself.

[7Wannabe5]

@Jason:

lol- My actual answer would be maybe if he had been a very good boyfriend for a long while, and he had somehow managed to engage my interest and empathy. However, although the issue is in completely different terms and realms of value, I would have the same concerns regarding "Will this be a trend?", "Am I just being used?" and "Why should I fork over the life-energy to fund this desire which I do not share?"

Working the other side of the market equation, I might consider the likelihood that my BF could find another partner who was more willing to help than me. I might be wrong, but I think the likelihood of finding another M partner who would lend $1500 for vet bill would be greater than the likelihood of finding another F partner willing to arrange MFF. I asked my current BF, who does provide me with some level of financial support, what he would do in giskard's situation, and he said "It's a cat. No way in hell." Yesterday evening, his ex-wife called and asked him for $22 for band pictures for their 8th grade son, and he just barked "Why don't you just throw the money in the garbage?" and hung up on her, but he freely offered to pay to replace the roof on her house where his son resides. So, different people have different boundaries when it comes to finances, and different people maintain their boundaries in different ways.

[C40]

Can we drop the feminism stuff? This is not specifically related to feminism.

How old is this cat?. What is the likelihood of full recovery and normal/long life duration after the care?

Most care near the end of a pet's life is unnecessary, and I'd guess it often has little success at extending the pet's life. It is, instead, the owner blowing money to grasp at keeping the cat existing longer in order to delay having to say goodbye/grieve/etc. Often the trade off to accomplish extension is that they extend the worst part of the pet's life.

The reality is that in nearly all cases, the owner would be happier overall letting nature take its course with the old pet, and getting a new one. This is also better for the pets. (as, your 'pet slot' is now allowing the existence of a healthy and happy pet instead of one that is suffering).

If this life extension thing is relevant to the cat in question, there's a good recent podcast that may be useful for you (and for the girlfriend) - on the "Tangentially Speaking" Show - the most recent one with Duncan Trussel. I believe it is espisode 336. https://chrisryanphd.com/tangentially-s ... ell-md-phd

Now - what may matter more is that she understand these things.

Now... if you decide not to offer the money, and she doesn't accept and respect your choice (if she gets mad, if she keeps trying to convince you, if she tries to make you feel guilty, etc), it is a huge red flag, on top of the previous red flags of her asking you for money

[Scott 2]

This has nothing to do with the cat or feminism. Your girlfriend has made her values clear. Your choices are:


1. Offer to help with the cat. Assume it's going to be a gift, even if you call it a loan. Two reasons for the path:

1.1 Option 1 - The implications of her values for the LTR are acceptable. You believe the relationship will persist.
1.2 Option 2 - You know the relationship is limited, but the expected duration provides utility beyond the $1500

Of course on this path you still talk through the treatment options with her and favor what is best for the cat. It could end up being cheaper, it could end up more. This is about showing you want to be her partner. This all assumes she isn't using you for money.


2. End it. No point in dragging out the inevitable by ignoring the problem. Ignoring sends a clear message anyway. She's not going to magically become a higher earn, heavy saver or cat hater. Who she is either works for you or it doesn't.

[EdithKeeler]

While I disagree with much of Feminism, I believe that Feminism has the correct answer for this situation. Women are strong and independent and don't need a man

This tread is not about feminism. Why are you trying to make it about feminism? Change the gender, the issue is the same whether it’s the woman’s cat or the man’s cat, whether it’s a gay partnership or whatever. Jesus!

[C40]

Edith - it seems he may have some 'women issues' - likely related to his own experiences with women, as can happen over a life - and is seeing this through his paradigm.

The whole 'needing money' thing is not specific to women. Men do it a lot too in relationships. It happens among all types of people, friends, and family. Heck, last year I was a little worried my dad was going to ask me to loan him $55k to pay for new teeth. Maybe it happens more among women(?) but that's not relevant to the thread.

[Sclass]

Depends on who you are and who she is. That’s all I’m trying to say. This deal may sound perfectly fine for some.

What do you want out of this?

I know some perfectly happy people involved in more mercenary relationships. One man bought a condo for his in laws. He thought his wife was worth it given the way she makes him feel. He cannot put a price on love because he has so much trouble finding it. I have two aunts with kept men. Very rich and unpleasant gals with very charming but spendy hubbies. I like it when they bring those guys over because they’re the ones you just must have paying attention to you. Everyone is happy. Man, woman, whatever, it seems to cut both ways...the only constant is one party has more money and the other has more charm.

So which one are you?

I just went over my dad’s accounting books for the month and I signed off on the $1500 recurring payment to my stepbrother I haven’t seen in thirty years. Your cat looks small. This is what it costs for a 60 yo woman to push an 80 yo man around in a wheelchair and ask in her baby voice “how does my fuzzy wuzzy big bear like his new teensy weensy dialysis needle? Wet me put dis widdo Oxygen toobie in your nose hunny bunny.” Priceless. I laugh and cry at the same time as I cut monthly checks.

Depends depends. On you. On her. On the cat.

Edit - if you want a life partner who’ll join you in the ERE lifestyle and help you divert your current income towards investments that will pay out over the next few decades you can should move on. Spend the $1500 on charm school for yourself.

[The Old Man]

@EdithKeeler: Because Feminism provides guidance on how to approach life's conundrums. Such as, should the man step in to save a woman from her difficulties - especially a woman he is not married to. If one took a heroic chivalry approach, the answer would be different.

If it was the man's cat, would this question even come up? The cat would die 100%.

[Jason]

In a marital relationship, or at least in mine, we don't lend each other money. An economic exchange deemed to be a loan in a relationship that is deemed to be intimate is like putting a landmine in a rose garden. Eventually, someone is going to step on it and things are going to be suddenly smelling quite different.

[vexed87]

If the $1500 were for a lifetime supply of lentils, who here would chip in? How does that shift your perspective? One act of geneorsity may pay dividends into the future, then again. Maybe not.

[EdithKeeler]

I will say this to the OP: I was considering this the other day, not long after my 54th birthday. I have not done some things in my life because of money. Didn’t buy something I wanted, didn’t help out a friend, didn’t take a trip, didn’t take a chance. Some of those things I really regret because they represent missed opportunities to make myself happy or to strengthen/have/keep a relationship.

I regret, for example, not participating in my friend’s wedding as a bridesmaid 30 years ago because it was “too expensive” and I didn’t want to spend the money. It hurt her feelings, in retrospect it wasn’t that much money, and while we’re still friends, that incident drove a small splinter into our friendship.

$1500 isn’t that much, it’s probably negotiable (offer to pay half? Suggest she only pay half of the $1500 back?). In the grand scheme of things, $1500 may delay your FI by a couple of months perhaps. If this is someone you see being in a long term relationship with, I’d give her the money but have a significant conversation about her goals, your goals, etc.

I have come to the conclusion that as I get older, relationships are much more important than money. I don’t want to/allow myself to be taken advantage of, but I also still have to look at myself in the mirror when I brush my teeth. (Which is why I paid for my mom’s new Walker. The brakes were bad on the old one. How would I feel if she fell because of bad brakes and I could have fixed it with a couple hundred bucks, and didn’t?)

One thing I don’t want is to be staring at my large bank balance alone in a corner someplace with no one to have a coffee with.

[The Old Man]

$1500 isn’t that much, it’s probably negotiable (offer to pay half? Suggest she only pay half of the $1500 back?). In the grand scheme of things, $1500 may delay your FI by a couple of months perhaps. If this is someone you see being in a long term relationship with, I’d give her the money but have a significant conversation about her goals, your goals, etc.

I consider this to be disasterous advice. The money is trivial. What is important is the message. Does the woman want the man for him or his money? Is the man supposed to be Mister Money Bags? We are talking about a cat, not a person. Feminism, unlike Heroic Chivalry, provides a graceful way to resolve this conundrum.

Most importantly they are NOT married. Most relationships fail, non-marriages fail at a much greater rate than marriages. Your advice would be acceptable, if they were married. One should not try to buy a relationship.

[cmonkey]

$1500 isn’t that much, it’s probably negotiable (offer to pay half? Suggest she only pay half of the $1500 back?).

I was going to suggest this, as I didn't see it above. Perhaps this is an opportunity to to enhance her money skills.

I definitely cannot say one way or the other what you should do. Looking back, if I had been put in this situation with DW and my refusal cost us the relationship I would have missed out on much happiness.

You need to weigh these things -

1. Where do you see your relationship going? Are there other incompatibilities that might cause issues going forward?
2. How open is your GF to trying to improve her financial situation/independence?
3. How rational is she being WRT to the cat's longer term prospects given a $1500 treatment?

[giskard]

So many interesting responses. Thanks everyone so much for helping. The cat is not very old btw, maybe midlife(?), for those that asked.

$1500 isn’t that much, it’s probably negotiable (offer to pay half? Suggest she only pay half of the $1500 back?). In the grand scheme of things, $1500 may delay your FI by a couple of months perhaps.

Yes I like this suggestion. The money really doesn't affect me a lot, it is more a matter of principal, and indication of values and responsibilities and the implications for the future of the relationship.

I have come to the conclusion that as I get older, relationships are much more important than money. I don’t want to/allow myself to be taken advantage of, but I also still have to look at myself in the mirror when I brush my teeth.

Yeah, I agree.

[prognastat]

If the $1500 were for a lifetime supply of lentils, who here would chip in? How does that shift your perspective? One act of geneorsity may pay dividends into the future, then again. Maybe not.

I would say the 2 aren't quite comparable.

First off, the lentils would be a one time cost saving expense. It would mean a reduction in food cost for the rest of the lifetime. Extending that cat's life is actually the opposite as the cat is going to need food/water/possibly boarding in the future and definitely more medical care in the future. There is no additional future cost to be considered with the lentils. I would also assume such a purchase would be a shared one for both parties.

Secondly just to take it in to a slightly more absurdist realm by taking the argument way too serious I still wouldn't buy a lifetimes worth of lentils for a BF/GF as it wouldn't make any sense to buy more once you've purchased the amount that brings the per unit cost the lowest. Anything more would simply be spending money that could spend time growing in investments and a waste of space to store that many lentils.