Bitcoin on the rise

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white belt
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Re: Bitcoin on the rise

Post by white belt »

A few guys at work seem to be big on $Strong nodes. You can google the details of how Node as a Service (NAAS) works, but after reading a bit into it I think there is an extremely high probability it is just a ponzi scheme. You have a waiting period between when you put your crypto in, when your node actually starts producing, and when you're allowed to get your crypto out. People making more from this than their paycheck. There are a ton of node schemes like this out there.

It seems that finding out one coworker is making a bunch of "money" from a highly speculative crypto draws in a lot of others and I suppose as long as everyone has excess money sitting around, the trend could continue. Even if it is a ponzi scheme, maybe there is money to be made if you're an early mover? The speculative crypto space is very much the wild west, or maybe a casino is a more accurate metaphor. I don't plan on touching it but it is certainly interesting to observe.

Slightly related: https://markets.businessinsider.com/new ... reddit.com

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Jean
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Re: Bitcoin on the rise

Post by Jean »

I've Seen a crypto ponzi schème live, it was frightening to see people jumping in an me doubting my décision to stay out. I'm glad i stayed out, but people making those schème are as low as drug dealers in my opinion.

WFJ
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Re: Bitcoin on the rise

Post by WFJ »

By all descriptions, all cryptos are Ponzi schemes, which does not necessarily make it a bad speculation. By definition, anything the derives it's primary value from new buyers, is the definition of a Ponzi scheme. The fact that most crypto zealots react with anger and "You just don't understand" gives me major caution that they are morons themselves "You don't see how beautiful the Emperor's new clothes are?", in complete denial as the back-up plan is professional gamer or Amazon fulfillment center, don't understand what a Ponzi scheme is or how they eventually end.

An intelligent response would be

"Yes, cryptos are by definition are Ponzi schemes, it's the Ponzi scheme of the internet. In the past, Ponzi schemes were limited to some location or membership graft with a central figure directly benefiting from the scam (Madoff). Crypto is a distributed Ponzi scheme, without a direct leader, which can travel across national lines and individuals belonging to any group can use this system to profit off of lesser individuals. There are 7.7 billion people in the world and less than a few million (probably generous estimate and too frustrating to collect data to provide a more accurate estimate) are smart enough to know the difference between an investment and a Ponzi scheme. Therefore as long as I can get out while there are still more idiots willing to join this Ponzi scheme, I'll make money". This is a valid and reasonable response, but not spoken in public from HODLers.

Ponzi schemes create massive returns for the early adopters who are adept enough to get out early "I will spend more time with my family". But bankrupt all those in the middle and later stages of adoption and why they are illegal. Without a leader or organization, it will be difficult for US regulatory agencies to prosecute anyone, which is their main power. US regulators will be able to prosecute front-running, false income generating securities and similar, but this is not the basis of the crypto Ponzi scheme.

"If each $1000 crypto holder just gets 5 of their friends to invest $1000, and those 5 friends get 5 friends to invest $1000 and those 5 friends get 5 friends to invest (a total of 5 times), you will make 62400% on you initial investment". This is the basis of all crypto adoption and by definition a Ponzi scheme. It's a brilliant, distributed network, non-leader Ponzi scheme but will end as all previous Ponzi schemes.

Humanofearth
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Re: Bitcoin on the rise

Post by Humanofearth »

Bitcoin is the dominant, most decentralized monetary network in human existence.

By the ponzi definition above, all internet networks are ponzis. If you don’t know what you’re doing, stay away from farming ponzis. Before you bash Bitcoin, try interacting with it on a cold wallet. It is digitized trust. I thought about 1-5%, getting a cold wallet changed that for me.

The first time you can own property without dependence on any third party that cannot be seized without consent, even if they kill you. That is the value.

white belt
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Re: Bitcoin on the rise

Post by white belt »

Humanofearth wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:33 am
Before you bash Bitcoin, try interacting with it on a cold wallet. It is digitized trust. I thought about 1-5%, getting a cold wallet changed that for me.

The first time you can own property without dependence on any third party that cannot be seized without consent, even if they kill you. That is the value.
I think most who post in this thread already do own some crypto and are quite familiar with cold wallets. I understand the counterparty risks associated with the current banking system and fiat currency.

You would rather die than give up your seed phrase? I often hear the argument that BTC can function as a "digital gold" that makes it superior from a risk perspective. However, I will contend that there is no such thing as "property that cannot be seized without consent". That's just not how the world works and it encourages one to completely disregard a variety of threats. Violence can be used to take all sorts of resources, as it has throughout human history. Crypto isn't immune to that fact. At what level of crypto adoption to do we think we will see burglaries, kidnappings, and other violent crimes that are attempting to extract seed phrases? Bandits in the 20th century might threaten you with a weapon and tell you to empty your pockets. Bandits in the 21st century will threaten you with a weapon and demand your seed phrase, while one of them verifies it works in real time.

Der Leiermann
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Re: Bitcoin on the rise

Post by Der Leiermann »

Further to whitebelt’s post, that’s already a reality in Brazil:
https://insightcrime.org/news/express-k ... technology

As a result the central bank restricted transactions in certain timeframes.

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Jean
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Re: Bitcoin on the rise

Post by Jean »

There is intrinsic valor in thé network already in place for which btc are a right of use. This makes it less of a ponzi schème than most retirement plan, higher éducation, and western fiat currency.
I hold my btc, because i cannot see a scénario where they don't become thé world's référence currency in which any other asset beyond what i Can carry could be of any use.

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Re: Bitcoin on the rise

Post by jacob »

Curses! I thought about this some 3 months late.
https://markets.businessinsider.com/new ... mc-2021-08
I wonder where the "outside money" is coming from, that is, who is spending $20k for 4096px of VGA graphics. It's hard to imagine paying that much for its intrinsic value?

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Mister Imperceptible
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Re: Bitcoin on the rise

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

My guess is someone needs to launder crypto profits and one way to do it is to buy an NFT (from yourself under a different entity) and then sell it later for a “loss.”

zbigi
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Re: Bitcoin on the rise

Post by zbigi »

Humanofearth wrote:
Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:33 am

The first time you can own property without dependence on any third party that cannot be seized without consent, even if they kill you. That is the value.
...as long as the property is a bunch of bits and not anything tangible. For example, if you try holding property rights to a piece of land via blockchain, the land can be obviously taken from you even without hacking into your wallet (by people with guns just moving onto the land). The same holds for any other object with any real life consequences. In other words - if it exists in the real world, it cannot be by definition effectively protected with some computer programs and data only.

WFJ
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Re: Bitcoin on the rise

Post by WFJ »

As long as cryptos use government controlled networks for transaction, all cryptos are subject to any law or regulation passes. Zealots who believe that this is an asset that can't be confiscated will have to develop a communication network that is outside the reach of any government, like their own worldwide satellite network. Without this, all cryptos are subject to confiscation.

A cold wallet will make crypto as liquid as using whale teeth as a currency.

I recently took a few business trips to some CBDs I have not been to in years and was struck by how many casual conversations involved some form or cryptos. Two men in line were discussing point spreads and crypto as hedging strategies. Airline workers were discussing some kind of NFT "node" where each one needed to bring in 5 "investors" to vest in the scheme. I overheard a few other odd conversations, but one was basically a pitch for an "Amway Coin" where one party was trying to convince another with statements like "How many people do you know with a mortgage, car payment, credit card payments? If 10 people borrow using (couldn't hear coin, many other details as was in a restaurant) you're mortgage will be free". If anyone has been on an Amway pitch, it was identical in all manners.

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Jean
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Re: Bitcoin on the rise

Post by Jean »

Vpns still work in china. Thé cost of completly blocking thé bitcoin network would simply be to high, as it would réduire cutting thé internet. I don't see how it could be done. There are of course a lot of ponzi schème around, but discarding crypto because people create token to run ponzis, woukd bé like discarding mail, because it was used for ponzi at some point. All it proves is that cryptos are already thé most efficient way to move money around.

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Ego
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Re: Bitcoin on the rise

Post by Ego »

WFJ wrote:
Wed Oct 27, 2021 1:36 pm
As long as cryptos use government controlled networks for transaction, all cryptos are subject to any law or regulation passes. Zealots who believe that this is an asset that can't be confiscated will have to develop a communication network that is outside the reach of any government, like their own worldwide satellite network. Without this, all cryptos are subject to confiscation.
https://gotennamesh.com/

Also, people have been sharing music and movies illegally through peer-to-peer services since 1999 and they cannot be shut down. Peer-to-peer decentralized crypto exchanges exist that work just like bittorrent. https://coinmarketcap.com/rankings/exchanges/dex/

white belt
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Re: Bitcoin on the rise

Post by white belt »

More examples of criminals using physical violence to steal cryptocurrency: https://beincrypto.com/spanish-tortured ... n-fortune/

ducknald_don
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Re: Bitcoin on the rise

Post by ducknald_don »

The report stated that although the thieves “reportedly made off with devices including laptops, phones, and a USB drive,” they were unsuccessful in stealing any of his cryptocurrency.

white belt
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Re: Bitcoin on the rise

Post by white belt »

ducknald_don wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 12:19 pm
What amount of money would you pay to avoid being tortured and potentially killed? I'm not so sure Dentzel would think that it was a worthwhile price to pay to keep his BTC.

If you read the examples linked in the 2nd half of the article you will see cases where thieves were more successful in seizing crypto.

ducknald_don
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Re: Bitcoin on the rise

Post by ducknald_don »

Clearly what he should have done is kept his mouth shut instead of bragging about how much bitcoin he has on social media.

Humanofearth
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Re: Bitcoin on the rise

Post by Humanofearth »

Someone who doesn't learn about multi-sig wallets and multiple second wallets (all you need is another second password on the same seed) isn't properly protecting their wealth. If you enter this field, I highly recommend looking into cold yeti protocol, cold card multi-sig, setting up your own node to route your transactions through, and create multiple 2pws that you'll remember so you have an idea of the various basic tools that'll come in handy when planning your estate, traveling, and interacting with your assets. Write the addresses you generate from these procedures and make sure you can access them. Always write your seeds and have copies of your private keys engraved in metal hidden somewhere secure yet private and geographically diversified. There are many ways to do this. Only you can determine what makes the most sense in your specific case.

If they're bragging about their assets and posting identifiable information so someone can even track their address, their desperation for attention will burn them. We use throwaway pseudonyms and tor with 0 identifiable information if necessary.

Humanofearth
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Re: Bitcoin on the rise

Post by Humanofearth »

Are there really people who don't know what tor, vpn's and end to end encryption are on this board? Seems a bit archaic at this point in time, please educate yourselves as Ego has done. Never too late to learn.

basuragomi
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Re: Bitcoin on the rise

Post by basuragomi »

It seems very ironic that the best way to hold your all-digital currency is by physically hiding metal tokens everywhere and maximizing transaction friction like some kind of Easter leprechaun.

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