"What the Health"

[sl-owl-orris]

First, Nutritionfacts is Dr. Greger's propaganda machine and is not a reliable source. (...) Greger suffers from the same statistical misuse and nonsense described in the videos I posted.

Since you’ve not provided any evidence on why is this propaganda, I consider it to be just your opinion. Mine is different, I think Nutritionfacts is one of the best sources on this subject available online. Regarding cherry picking – Greger made well over a thousand videos, many quoting multiple studies. That’s a lot of cherries all pointing in one direction… If Greger is biased, what about Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics (largest US organisation of this type with over 100k members)?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27886704

He just cherry-picks the epidemiological studies that supports his view -- yes, I have looked into this in detail. If you look carefully at that site, you will also find (nicely buried) that even he admits that the diet he recommends is nutrient deficient and requires supplements.

Although his website is not the easiest to navigate, the recommendation to supplement with B12 is far from buried considering he made around 10 videos on this alone. He also warned multiple times in other places to supplement B12 if you follow whole food, plant based diet. Other than that, this diet covers everything human body needs, not to mention it can even reverse some chronic diseases.

And you will find that ALL processed foods are carcinogens when consumed in quantity, whether they be animal, vegetable or mineral.

Glad we agree on processed meat then. WFPB doesn’t do other processed foods either.

But do you know anyone -- anyone at all -- who contracted cancer simply from eating ordinary quantities of non-processed meat without having other bad habits or a genetic disposition (or just bad luck or other exposures)?

Why is it important for me to know someone like this and how would I even know their lifestyle to this level of detail? It’s about probabilities of developing an illness and your lifestyle/diet decisions either increase or reduce the chances of contracting the illness. And since there’s nothing you can get from meat, that you can’t get from plants while also avoiding all the dangers of meat, I don’t see any rational reason to take the chance.

WHO/IARC now readily backtrack and waffle on their "conclusions", which are routinely mis-cited by the public. In fact, they admit that that their studies as to non-processed red meat is not causal, but merely associative -- meaning that other life factors could be at play. As for the central issue of the OP, WHO punts and offers no conclusion whatsoever, because it ACTUALLY DEPENDS ON OTHER LIFESTYLE FACTORS, McFLY:

"22. Should we be vegetarians?

Vegetarian diets and diets that include meat have different advantages and disadvantages for health. However, this evaluation did not directly compare health risks in vegetarians and people who eat meat. That type of comparison is difficult because these groups can be different in other ways besides their consumption of meat."

These limitations of WHO's review and others are described here: http://www.who.int/features/qa/cancer-red-meat/en/

In other words, what you cited from WHO has no bearing on what is at issue here -- they did not consider it.

What’s wrong in changing recommendations as science advances and new evidence becomes available? And yes, red meat is associated with cancer (it’s in group 2A which in their terminology means there’s strong evidence it’s carcinogenic in humans, but at present it’s not conclusive). For me, that’s enough to stay away, you do as you wish.

I’m not really sure what point are you trying to make. Do you just disregard all the epidemiological studies because there are other factors which could contribute?

[sl-owl-orris]

@jennypenny

People have different motivations for going vegan. For some it's about ethics, for some environment, while for others it's about health. No matter what motivation(s) you have, you can enjoy the benefits of the other benefits.

Benefits of eating fruits and vegetables by far outweigh any hazard from pesticides. Plus, you can always buy organic.

@Felipe

And on top of toxins you have antibiotics, hormones, saturated fat etc.

@Olaz

Once you switch to WFPB diet, you discover how easy it is to follow and how delicious food can be (in SAD you only ever taste added sugar, salt and fat). It takes few weeks for your tastebuds to adjust and then you can't stand processed food anymore as it just smells and tastes awful. No cravings!

[Michael_00005]

I saw the documentary.

It felt propagandaish at times but there was one thing that I can't see any way around when eating animal products.

Well that is something, someone actually watched the film! As mentioned in the original post, be very careful in taking anyone's advice on diet! I'm not asking anyone to believe this or that theory, but to experiment and learn the truth for yourself. Most have a very difficult time with a whole food PBD lifestyle, you’re dealing with food addicts… probably the most prevalent addiction on the planet. And it's a 1,000x times easier to call their addiction healthy, then it is to admit a lack of inner strength and do the work of changing a bad habit.

Don’t get me wrong, changing your diet is not easy, you have to go against the current, and few there are that go this route, not to mention giving up a favorite food group. But the trend is growing in strength, and people are coming forward all over the world telling their story of how they reversed this or that disease, of how they lost weight, have greater mental clarity, greater energy, stronger immune system, more attractive skin, feel better emotionally, etc.. The benefits are immense, and will progress slowly (over several years). As the years progress, the meat eating proponents will eventually be in the minority, and each year that passes they will find it more difficult to hold their belief… a big part of this will be their own failing health.

For most, the only way they will ever change is through sickness and pain, even then most will not change. My dad’s mantra was to tell us how healthy our wild game (meat) diet was growing up, every day before dinner he would recite what he was taught from the news and school, i.e. meat is good for you. We ate a heavy meat diet, and I’m very well aware of the differences between both options. About the same time he had his 1st heart attack, I was transitioning to vegetarian as a prelude to spiritual interests. For 19 years I watch him degenerate, and become a pawn for the doctors. They could have simply told him to transition to a PBD and he could reverse his atherosclerosis. But why would they do this? When a greedy doctor (most are) give you this prognosis, they will say straight faced “you have heart disease!”, but what he is really thinking is: “Cha-Ching!”, because he’s got alimony payments, a second home, a BMW and a Porsche… he’s not living the ERE lifestyle you understand. You’re a big fat paycheck to him. They charged my dad well over 1 million dollars in medical bill over the years, and I could not even imagine what it would be like to set up an appointment to go have your leg sawed off, because the arteries were all filled with meat clogging fats. This is a reality, and you should prepare for it.

And is it really any surprise that spiritual literature from around the world has been telling us from the very beginning, to eat a plant based diet. From the spiritual perspective killing, imprisoning, torturing animals and then putting them in our stomach involves karma. The difficulty with karma is that one never knows how long before the seeds start to bear fruit… then our harvest will come in abundance! Try as you might, you will never be able to hide from your own actions, and in turn reactions.

[slowtraveler]

@Michael
Thanks for the example of even wild game being too much if had as a staple.

I've been vegan a few times before. I normally stopped to social pressure but family is on board now. I'm really hoping this helps my dad's heart too. He's had a few close calls there but he's still standing, thankfully.

I see this as an experiment that we have the luxury of performing. It'll be fun seeing how Brute and the others do over time. I'm feeling better so far, no hard withdrawals yet. Maybe we're both correct-ie-vegetable based is healthier for most people but a few mutants do better with larger amounts of meat.

@sl-owl-orris
I agree on the hormones and antibiotics.


Has nobody addressed eating insects? No extra hormones, no antibiotic, more energy efficient for environment.

[TopHatFox]

@sl-owl-orris, I already do WFPB, though I'm not absolute~ ; )

Quarter way through the video. Damn, the arguments against animal products are back to back thus far.

Half-way live update: damnnnnn, the scene when he uncovers the sponsors to the major cancer organizations was so intense!

3-quarters in: oh yeah, it's getting into the benefits of plant-based diet. Ask me the protein question one more time m*otherf***!

Conclusion: vegan vegan vegan baby'! Adds in many common people and a few athlete successes. Encourages us all to go plant based all the way.

------

After seeing the film, I'm going to be more strict on my whole-food plant based diet. I want some more documentaries on improving health; this was cool.

[Dragline]

For most, the only way they will ever change is through sickness and pain, even then most will not change. My dad’s mantra was to tell us how healthy our wild game (meat) diet was growing up, every day before dinner he would recite what he was taught from the news and school, i.e. meat is good for you. We ate a heavy meat diet, and I’m very well aware of the differences between both options. About the same time he had his 1st heart attack, I was transitioning to vegetarian as a prelude to spiritual interests. For 19 years I watch him degenerate, and become a pawn for the doctors. They could have simply told him to transition to a PBD and he could reverse his atherosclerosis. But why would they do this? When a greedy doctor (most are) give you this prognosis, they will say straight faced “you have heart disease!”, but what he is really thinking is: “Cha-Ching!”, because he’s got alimony payments, a second home, a BMW and a Porsche… he’s not living the ERE lifestyle you understand. You’re a big fat paycheck to him. They charged my dad well over 1 million dollars in medical bill over the years, and I could not even imagine what it would be like to set up an appointment to go have your leg sawed off, because the arteries were all filled with meat clogging fats. This is a reality, and you should prepare for it.

And is it really any surprise that spiritual literature from around the world has been telling us from the very beginning, to eat a plant based diet. From the spiritual perspective killing, imprisoning, torturing animals and then putting them in our stomach involves karma. The difficulty with karma is that one never knows how long before the seeds start to bear fruit… then our harvest will come in abundance! Try as you might, you will never be able to hide from your own actions, and in turn reactions.

Sorry for your experiences. I now see your preferences now have nothing to do with the documentary, but are based on past events and personal beliefs.

There is no need to cloud or justify spiritual beliefs with other considerations. Nothing to argue about either -- everyone is entitled to their own. I hope you can understand that others are also entitled to theirs, or to none or to something different.

All the best to you.

[ThisDinosaur]

Ask me the protein question one more time m*otherf***!

What is the protein question? Also, what's the answer?

[RealPerson]

My dad’s mantra was to tell us how healthy our wild game (meat) diet was growing up, every day before dinner he would recite what he was taught from the news and school, i.e. meat is good for you. We ate a heavy meat diet, and I’m very well aware of the differences between both options. About the same time he had his 1st heart attack, I was transitioning to vegetarian as a prelude to spiritual interests. For 19 years I watch him degenerate, and become a pawn for the doctors. They could have simply told him to transition to a PBD and he could reverse his atherosclerosis. But why would they do this? When a greedy doctor (most are) give you this prognosis, they will say straight faced “you have heart disease!”, but what he is really thinking is: “Cha-Ching!”, because he’s got alimony payments, a second home, a BMW and a Porsche… he’s not living the ERE lifestyle you understand. You’re a big fat paycheck to him. They charged my dad well over 1 million dollars in medical bill over the years, and I could not even imagine what it would be like to set up an appointment to go have your leg sawed off, because the arteries were all filled with meat clogging fats. This is a reality, and you should prepare for it.

My great grandfather ate bacon and eggs for breakfast every day and considered no meal complete without red meat.... And he smoked. Lived to be 96 without any heart problems and definitely never saw a cardiologist in his life. Is he evidence you should eat red meat to live a long and healthy life? No, he is just an anecdote.

I ate a strict vegan diet for about a year. Didn't crave meat. I didn't feel better or worse (I usually feel great anyway), but my GI system simply could not handle it. After a year I had switch to a healthy varied diet that includes a variety of meat. I never eat junk food. I soon felt back to normal. My body simply cannot tolerate a WFPD diet. Based on my generic background I think I will be okay with meat. I would say that everybody's system is different. Let's not turn nutrition into yet another religion.

[BRUTE]

I feel like diet shouldn't be hard. The human body has thrived on all sorts of food. Just make sure it's unprocessed, there's a diversity of it, and it's consumed in adequate quantities. Avoid stress, drink lots of water, sleep well, exercise, and you're done. A tangent, but similar deal with money.

does Olaz feel like defining the terms "food", "thrive", "processed", "diversity", "stress", "lots", "well", "exercise" and "adequate"? apart from that, pretty simple really.

[BRUTE]

Ask me the protein question one more time m*otherf***!

What is the protein question? Also, what's the answer?

Q: but how will vegans get enough protein?
A: REEEEEEEEEEEEEE

edit:

someone has to say it: fuck animals. if god didn't want humans to eat animals, why did he make them delicious?

@sl-owl-orris: triglyceride/HDL ratio show off?

[Dragline]

WHO/IARC now readily backtrack and waffle on their "conclusions", which are routinely mis-cited by the public. In fact, they admit that that their studies as to non-processed red meat is not causal, but merely associative -- meaning that other life factors could be at play. As for the central issue of the OP, WHO punts and offers no conclusion whatsoever, because it ACTUALLY DEPENDS ON OTHER LIFESTYLE FACTORS, McFLY:

"22. Should we be vegetarians?

Vegetarian diets and diets that include meat have different advantages and disadvantages for health. However, this evaluation did not directly compare health risks in vegetarians and people who eat meat. That type of comparison is difficult because these groups can be different in other ways besides their consumption of meat."

These limitations of WHO's review and others are described here: http://www.who.int/features/qa/cancer-red-meat/en/

In other words, what you cited from WHO has no bearing on what is at issue here -- they did not consider it.

What’s wrong in changing recommendations as science advances and new evidence becomes available? And yes, red meat is associated with cancer (it’s in group 2A which in their terminology means there’s strong evidence it’s carcinogenic in humans, but at present it’s not conclusive). For me, that’s enough to stay away, you do as you wish.

I’m not really sure what point are you trying to make. Do you just disregard all the epidemiological studies because there are other factors which could contribute?

Well, the current findings are in the videos I posted which are extremely recent. What's wrong in changing your beliefs when new evidence becomes available?

As for e-studies, yes, you may have missed it. The statistical problem with them was also discussed in the videos -- here, I queued it up for you at 24:15 again to make it easier: https://youtu.be/EWt1HNudyKM?t=1455

It is simply too easy to see what you want to see with such things. You can prove that onions and lemons "cause cancer", for example. They are only reliable when they all point in the same direction and can be backed up with other more reliable studies that are better controlled, like randomized trials.

[P_K]

@sl-owl-orris: triglyceride/HDL ratio show off?

Inquiring minds wish to know.

I'll volunteer mine, too. ~2.3 I need a higher HDL level.

[Dragline]

@sl-owl-orris: triglyceride/HDL ratio show off?

Inquiring minds wish to know.

I'll volunteer mine, too. ~2.3 I need a higher HDL level.

1.63 for me last year. A few years ago < 1, but I've been slipping. Need more sardines, maybe.

[TopHatFox]

[/brute]

@sl-owl-orris: triglyceride/HDL ratio show off?
[/quote]

Anyone want to arm wrestle next?

[BRUTE]

BRUTE,
Where did you get the idea fiber causes colon cancer?

the fiber menace

[BRUTE]

@sl-owl-orris: triglyceride/HDL ratio show off?

I'll volunteer mine, too. ~2.3 I need a higher HDL level.

1.63

1.7 - Dragline wins.

[BRUTE]

Anyone want to arm wrestle next?

deal.

[sl-owl-orris]

@sl-owl-orris: triglyceride/HDL ratio show off?

Mine is 0.68.

[Stahlmann]

@sl-owl-orris: triglyceride/HDL ratio show off?

Mine is 0.68.

On what kind of diet?

@sl-owl-orris: triglyceride/HDL ratio show off?

I'll volunteer mine, too. ~2.3 I need a higher HDL level.

1.63

1.7 - Dragline wins.

Mine is 1.54, but I am the youngest from you all.
Result is after 1 year of not so successful LCHF diet.

[slsdly]

Triglycerides 0.62, HDL 1.33. Maybe having meat with one or two meals per week on average? 2-3 eggs a day though. Minimal dairy. The rest mostly vegetables, legumes, some whole grains. Exercise 4-5 days a week.