What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

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BRUTE
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by BRUTE » Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:07 pm

Felipe wrote:"Eat real food, mostly plants and not too much"
that Pollan quote is cute, but useless for humans who aren't already on the margin regarding fat loss. it is not specifically aimed at fat loss and therefore not optimal.

if Felipe wants to lose fat, and maintain muscle mass reasonably, brute has a very simple strategy:

water fasting for one week at a time. yes, it's doable. no, Felipe isn't going to die. is it a crash diet? yes, but it works. the problems with crash diets only appear if Felipe goes back to eating high-carb junk after.

it is completely safe to not eat for days or weeks at a time if a given human has body fat >10lbs. at 211lbs, Felipe can likely fast for 2-3 months before running into trouble, but that's not necessary.

fasting will put Felipe into ketosis very quickly and very deeply, making him access body fat for energy. it will also result in a huge energy deficit of approximately 100%.

Felipe will lose approximately 1-1.5lbs per day, some of which will be water/digestive weight. but much of it will be fat.

now the important part is not to eat high-carb after ending the fast, or everything will come back. there is such a thing as "set points" in body fat, and fasting is the fastest (<-- haha) way to break through them. in brute's experience, there's a set point approximately every 20-30lbs. meaning it's almost impossible to diet down with a smaller deficit, because the body will retain fat and rebound to that point quickly. but once these points are broken through, the body is happy at this new fat level and doesn't necessarily gain all that fat back.

brute still recommends keto in addition to fasting, both before and after. makes transition easier and prevents regain of fat by controlling insulin.

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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by Felipe » Sun Dec 04, 2016 7:53 pm

I agree with Brute that fasting is the fastest way possible to lose fat and that it is not dangerous in my situation.

I used to do 24 hour intermittent fasts once or twice a week and have even done a 3 day fast (though I was shooting for a 5 day fast.)

My question to Brute is how does Brute maintain the self control to do week fasts. I assume Brute lives alone, does Brute simply keep an empty pantry and fridge until he elects to eat? Is Brute secretly a monk who has transcended temptation?

How would I stop eating in a home where there is such surplus of temptation?

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BRUTE
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by BRUTE » Sun Dec 04, 2016 8:31 pm

brute maintains a mostly empty fridge and pantry during fasts, yes. simply storing all non-perishable food items away in another room or closet should be fine.

during the week it's not too bad, as brute is distracted by work and such. weekends it can be a bit tough. distractions are the way to go.

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Ego
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by Ego » Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:31 pm

A short video of a wide variety of actual real live experts talking about it.... as opposed to a bunch of writers with degrees in journalism and few chemists or nutritionists who saddle up to the the Atkins/Dairy / Cattleman's trough.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8sGE5n-i1Q

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daylen
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by daylen » Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:19 pm

BRUTE wrote:Felipe can likely fast for 2-3 months before running into trouble, but that's not necessary.


A quick search said death usually occurs in 1.5-2 months.....so it is probably best to avoid any more than a month of fasting. :P

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Kriegsspiel
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by Kriegsspiel » Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:26 pm

Yea you really have to bulk up first, before fasting. For safety.

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BRUTE
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by BRUTE » Tue Dec 06, 2016 12:26 am

daylen wrote:A quick search said death usually occurs in 1.5-2 months.....so it is probably best to avoid any more than a month of fasting. :P
completely depends on body mass and body fat. certainly it's advisable to stop slightly before POW look is achieved. there are recorded cases (with medical supervision) of over 1 years of fasting straight. this gentleman started out around 400-500lbs and only took a vitamin each day.

brute hasn't fasted long enough to get close to POW mode, but has been told that the body makes it VERY clear when to stop. if in doubt, 10% body fat for men and 20% for women is very safe, so stopping there should be fine for most.

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vexed87
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by vexed87 » Tue Dec 06, 2016 8:06 am

I hope you are not considering fasting if you are still struggling to halt the gain of weight as it is? You'll more than likely go back to your previous lifestyle choices, and be in the same scenario a number of months down the line, unhappily gaining the weight all over again. Going through cycles of feast to famine can't be good for you long term, consecutive periods of nutrient deficiency will leave you vulnerable to many diseases in the long run and isn't sustainable. Most people who restrict calories will inevitably be hit by the double whammy of a body in starvation mode (which will extract every damn calories it can), plus the overwhelming urge to break fast by binging on the calories dense foods. It will take extreme discipline not to fail in a world of abundance.

What you need is a change of lifestyle, not a diet/starvation!

If you are prepared to take the drastic step of not eating for up to a month, at least consider the Fat Sick and Nearly Dead regime, but bare in mind lots of people fail to keep the weight off long term, because eventually their old lifestyles return.

If your ultimate goal is to lose weight to be healthy, you need to take stock of why you are still gaining weight, be brutally honest with yourself, what are you eating that you shouldn't be if weight loss is your goal, just eliminate THAT!

If you want to crash your weight for vanity, and health is no consideration, starvation is undoubtedly the fastest option, but not the most pleasant, nor sustainable. Weight loss doesn't have to be rapid, and for it to be sustainable, it's probably best that it isn't. Learning a new lifestyle takes time, stick at it, and you will get your reward, the building blocks to sustainable nutrition and good health.

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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by cmonkey » Tue Dec 06, 2016 9:03 am

vexed87 wrote:What you need is a change of lifestyle, not a diet/starvation!

+1

The faster you lose weight, the faster you will gain the weight back. The reason for this is entirely due to lifestyle. I'm not sure on how long it takes for activities to become habits and habits to become lifestyle but you are ultimately bound to this timeline. That's why it's best to lose weight at a slow and steady pace by creating a new lifestyle for yourself.

Simply getting up and moving around helps tremendously. I have maintained a constant weight for years because I walk several miles each day at work (around the parking lot) and now that I have started walking to the bus and back I've actually lost about 5 pounds the last couple years. DW and I now go on 5+ walks weekly when I get home from the office as well. We have been doing this for about 2-3 weeks now so we are probably a month or two from it becoming 'habit'. Perhaps a year away from it becoming 'lifestyle' or simply put, as routine as sleeping/eating/breathing.

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vexed87
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by vexed87 » Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:31 am

Further expanding, the means is often the diet, and the end is often weight-loss, but imo losing weight should be the means, and the end should the healthy lifestyle, if you don't get this right, it won't stay off.

I recall reading here in a thread that a habit is usually cemented in 14 repeat recurrences without failure, i.e. you stop having to think about it, willpower no long plays a role, it just happens. The lifestyle, I would say, starts when your habits begin to take an active role in shaping the way you behave in a holistic sense, or accumulated good habits, i.e. willingly start saying no to things that used to tempt you, like chocolates and white breads, and opt for the carrot sticks and hummus, and biking instead of driving, etc etc.

When too many habits tip the scale to unhealthy, your doomed to fail. Make new positive habits your focus. Simply asking, what do you eat for weight loss, is part of the solution, but, if your lifestyle is lacking, it's a pointless exercise.

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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by sky » Tue Dec 06, 2016 2:55 pm

Ego wrote:A short video of a wide variety of actual real live experts talking about it.... as opposed to a bunch of writers with degrees in journalism and few chemists or nutritionists who saddle up to the the Atkins/Dairy / Cattleman's trough.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8sGE5n-i1Q
I will certainly be moving toward a more plant based diet after watching that.

The concern about a vegan diet is that it does not appear to be a long term healthy diet without supplements, such as B12. If a diet requires synthetic supplements, it may well be a healthy diet and may provide reduced incidences of disease, but it is not a diet that could have been followed prior to modern chemistry. Without supplements, a vegan diet causes other types of disease, which may be far less dangerous than diseases caused by a standard american diet, but are diseases nonetheless.

I suspect that the ideal natural diet includes mostly plant foods with occasional additions of meat and perhaps dairy in small portions.

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vexed87
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by vexed87 » Tue Dec 06, 2016 5:59 pm

sky wrote:but it is not a diet that could have been followed prior to modern chemistry. Without supplements, a vegan diet causes other types of disease, which may be far less dangerous than diseases caused by a standard american diet, but are diseases nonetheless.
This isn't true, strictly speaking it's the relatively modern practice of thorough cleaning produce due to germphobia, by scrubbing, peeling etc physically removes the majority of bacteria and b12 in the organic earth matter. The advantage of cleaning produce means we eat less food contaminated by pathogens and parasites and therefore save lives, however with the negative side effect of eliminating our most natural source of b12.

Solution? Simply take supplements, or grow your own and scrub less. The poorest, both in the developing world, and more generally historically would rarely/never eat meat, because it's resource intensive, yet they rarely suffer b12 deficiency, plant based foods can provide sufficient b12 in the right conditions. The wealthy, who could consume meat as often as desired, as we do in the typical western diet, develop the same lifestyle diseases.

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Ego
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by Ego » Tue Dec 06, 2016 6:57 pm

vexed87 wrote: This isn't true, strictly speaking it's the relatively modern practice of thorough cleaning produce due to germphobia, by scrubbing, peeling etc physically removes the majority of bacteria and b12 in the organic earth matter. The advantage of cleaning produce means we eat less food contaminated by pathogens and parasites and therefore save lives, however with the negative side effect of eliminating our most natural source of b12.
I started composing my response in my head but then realized that vexed said it better than I would have.

No need to supplement. Sprinkle some yeast flakes on your salad every so often and you are more than covered.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nutritional_yeast

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vexed87
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by vexed87 » Wed Dec 07, 2016 7:58 am

Ego wrote:I started composing my response in my head but then realized that vexed said it better than I would have.
If you ignore my broken English! :lol:

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BRUTE
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by BRUTE » Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:08 am

vexed87 wrote:Going through cycles of feast to famine can't be good for you long term.
disagreed.

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FBeyer
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by FBeyer » Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:21 am

I've never seen anyone go on a diet to lose weight successfully. I've seen people change their diet lose weight.
Besides that I think we're being pedantic about what you should eat to lose weight.
Your choice of comfort food probably dictates your weight a whole lot more than you realize.

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BRUTE
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by BRUTE » Thu Dec 08, 2016 1:34 am

FBeyer wrote:I've never seen anyone go on a diet to lose weight successfully. I've seen people change their diet lose weight.
probably semantics. way of eating, way of life, lifestyle.. brute doesn't care much what to call it.

where he would agree is that it's usually impossible to just "push through" any specific, unpleasant diet, lose a ton of fat, and then resume previous behavior without gaining all the fat back.

if effects are supposed to be permanent, very likely, behavior needs to change permanently. clearly brute is not suggesting to fast for eternity - but just like the warrior diet makes daily 16-23h fasts into a "lifestyle" or whatever, there are diets/fasting regimens that prescribe 2 days of fasting a week, 5 days a week, 1 week every 2 months, 1 week every month, 1 month every year..

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FBeyer
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by FBeyer » Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:19 am

BRUTE wrote:
FBeyer wrote:I've never seen anyone go on a diet to lose weight successfully. I've seen people change their diet lose weight.
where he would agree is that it's usually impossible to just "push through" any specific, unpleasant diet, lose a ton of fat, and then resume previous behavior without gaining all the fat back.

if effects are supposed to be permanent, very likely, behavior needs to change permanently...
My point exactly. Your permanent behaviour IS your lifestyle, is it not?
I'm harping on this because I personally think there is a very important psychological difference between the idea of going on a diet to lose weight, and changing ones diet and behaviour to asymptotically approach one's ideal weight.

The first notion has a transient nature to it, that undermines what you're trying to do in the long run, the second permanently fixes the issue until other external sources screws with your lifestyle once again. As opposed to Brute I think, that what you think about something radically changes the way you approach something.

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vexed87
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by vexed87 » Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:09 am

To bear clear, I didn't mean short periods of fast. I was talking about the suggested extended periods of fasting, so longer than several days. All that time your body will not be getting the nutrients you require. When, fasting for 16-23 hours a day, clearly the body can still get the nutrients it needs regularly enough. If you switch from weeks of famine to weeks of feast, it's clearly not a healthy lifestyle! Sure you can cope without some nutrients for a few days, but certain types cannot be stored in the body for long periods. You'll start by getting more frequent coughs, colds and other viruses, then more serious diseases will get a foot hold. A sustainable, healthy diet is key to good long term health.

Supplements are not a substitute to nutrients lost to fasting, and overconsumption of some nutrients is more toxic than not consuming them at all. There's lots of evidence for instance to suggest the multi-vitamins do more harm than good.

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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Thu Dec 08, 2016 7:02 am

This might just be semantics, or my own personal peeve, but "lifestyle" seems more like something that can be packaged, marketed, politicized and only superficially realized, whereas "practice" to be defined as "what I actually do or don't do on some sort of consistent basis" is more relevant.

One thing I have wondered about weight loss or dietary practice is whether practice in the moment matters more or less than practice in the past, and to what extent? For instance, imagine two 60 year old identical twins separated at birth, one of whom is currently borderline obese but is currently 3 months into a new diet and exercise practice highly likely to improve condition, and the other is currently borderline healthy weight but is currently 3 months into a new diet and exercise practice which is highly likely to deteriorate condition, which one is more likely to have a heart attack tomorrow? We often form analogies where we imagine health as something that can be stored up like gold, but this is obviously only partially valid. It might be interesting to consider charts that might show depreciation (? right word?) schedules for capital assets that are more squishy such kidney function, friendship, or competence in topological data analysis.

My father suffered a minor heart attack and blamed me, because I was at the time living in a rural town where the diner served a dish known as "Hillbilly Pancakes" of which he partook just days earlier. He did not think the habit formed in his urban youth, and abandoned in mid-life, of listening to cool jazz while smoking Kool cigarettes remained relevant.

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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by vezkor » Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:11 pm

less. Then stick to it.

Teach yourself to value the feeling of hunger and mentally correlate it with progress, success and goal-achievement. Losing weight is 95% perseverance.

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BRUTE
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by BRUTE » Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:32 pm

vexed87 wrote:If you switch from weeks of famine to weeks of feast, it's clearly not a healthy lifestyle!
arguments requested, since clarity has not ensued.

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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by vexed87 » Fri Dec 09, 2016 5:00 am

@brute, surely it would be self-evident that long term fasting will result in malnutrition in some form, and eventual progression to disease?

Long term fasting compromises the immune system, muscles are cannibalised for protein, including your heart, magnesium and potassium, are depleted quickly and are essential for healthy heart function. Also, body fat actually stores fat soluble toxins from various sources, including pesticides, preservatives, food additives, heavy metals, pollutants, plastics and other environmental chemicals, so if fat is depleted rapidly, your going to have a harder time detoxing, leading to accumulative and permanent kidney and liver damage. I'm sure there's more, but my time is precious! :roll:

I'll repeat myself, in case my point wasn't clear enough.

Don't focus on weight-loss, unless that is the sole goal. I do not dispute that fasting is the fastest means of weight-loss. However, if the goal is good health, i.e. not being overweight and at risk of attributed lifestyle diseases whilst obtaining adequate nutrition, fasting is simply not a real solution, its like treating a symptom and not the disease. Fasting would simply be the means to the wrong end (weight loss), without a shift in paradigm, the weight will undoubtedly return and OP would be stuck in a cycle of feast/famine. Eat less, or crash diets are the conventional advice, they are the "save 10% of income" of the diet world. The ERE grade advice would be to eat the right foods in the first place, not less. Weight loss does not need to be rapid, unless there is some vanity complex, i.e. must look good on the beach in 6 weeks. It should be part of a wider adaptation to a healthier lifestyle. Eat less relies on extreme vigilance and discipline, and eating right relies on crafting new habits. Both take some measure of will power, but one tends to stick, while the other doesn't.

My personal experience is that eating right is more important that will power, as I do not have the mental energy to police my portion sizes and count every calorie I consume.
Last edited by vexed87 on Fri Dec 09, 2016 5:22 am, edited 2 times in total.

Felipe
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by Felipe » Fri Dec 09, 2016 5:21 am

Honestly, I feel a long term fast will take too much energy to apply right now. Possibly once I have some momentum but intermittent fasting (24-36hrs x1-2 times per week) is a habit I definitely want to integrate.

I absolutely agree that this is a long term habit to build. 2016 was a year I decided to dedicate to health. Early on, I had 2 health issues arise that I never expected so it was a bit ironic for me. I implemented daily meditation, daily walks, daily vegetable soup (each over about a month), and realized mental health was as important as physical health so I began letting go of some vices, 1 at a time. Letting go of pot took 4-6 months alone. I foresee my diet habit taking around a similar time to build and integrate into a daily practice. So 2017 will be focused towards my physical health: 4-6 months for diet, 2-3 for exercise, 1-2 for sleep, 1-2 for meditating more.

Some changes I've made progress on: checking in with my hunger before eating, eating slightly less meat/cheese, cutting sugar, and cutting bread. I've had bread once or twice since the last post, it used to be with almost each meal. Sugar is less but still not near 0. I've replaced bread and sugar with legumes, oatmeal, fruit. Family seems quite on board with these changes.

I've stopped increasing in weight. I'm around 209 now. I think this is because checking in has made overeating less likely.

My main focus with diet at this point will be to focus towards continually checking in, striving to eat less and less over time (get comfortable with feeling light) while experimenting with more vegetables, legumes, fruits, unprocessed (outside of possibly cooking/personally preparing) foods to find out what foods I feel good with.

PS-Really enjoying all the debate and different perspective here. I still haven't seen anyone argue against eating more vegetables or eating less kcal, which confirms my suspicions that these are the key levers here.

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vexed87
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by vexed87 » Fri Dec 09, 2016 5:28 am

@Felipe, major calorie restriction isn't a solution, not to be confused with calories deficit, we need a slight deficit to burn fat, in my experience, skipping meals, or small plates eventually leads to lethargy and urges to binge. Opinion is divided where your calories need to come from, but plenty of starch, as per my most recent experience makes weight loss possible without hunger pangs, and for obvious reasons is sustainable! :D

https://www.drmcdougall.com/health/shop ... -solution/

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