What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

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BRUTE
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by BRUTE » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:15 pm

C40 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:00 am
Obviously, working does not directly cause one to get get fat.
disagreed. working (in many cases) consists of showing up at a certain time, at a certain place, and in a certain environment, performing certain functions. all 4 can be major causes of stress that mess up hormone regulation, rendering what an individual eats completely irrelevant.

brute has a question for C40:
what time does C40 wake up naturally when he doesn't have any social obligations or alarm clocks set?
C40 wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:00 am
Do you not believe in free will even for what people chose to eat?
brute is saying that diet can be a pretty irrelevant factor in body composition. free will has nothing to do with it. if other factors raise insulin enough, 100% perfect diet adherence doesn't lower it again, and there is no fat loss.

banker22
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by banker22 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:06 am

I'm sorry @Brute but I just can't agree that work and stress can 'render what an individual eats completely irrelevant'.

I'm sure the mice in the caloric restriction studies were pretty damn stressed.

What about people in prison camps?

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BRUTE
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by BRUTE » Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:15 am

well, brute tried it. keto down to lowest body fat ever, with no exercise. then started work. kept diet exactly the same. gained body fat.

so reality happened and the nice theory was wrong.

obviously, starvation is a thing - but forcefully starving humans against their will is hardly useful body composition advice. humans get sick when they starve.

brute's theory can explain all evidence. the other theory cannot. brute's theory is better.

Augustus
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by Augustus » Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:01 am

classical_Liberal wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:37 am
This lead me into the rabbit hole of polyunsaturated fats and cardiac disease. This research is an ongoing process with less conclusive science, but I'm "sold" enough to cut them from my diet. Further research may show them to be nearly as harmful as transfat.
What?? What has linked polyunsaturated to cardiac disease? Everything I've ever read has said the opposite. Is there new research? I try to get in a lot of nuts and fish oil precisely because I want to prevent disease.

After googling, going to assume you're talking about oxidation based on the rat study. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3226610/

The rat study is a great example of why deep frying is really bad, but it's not applicable to home cooking. They simulated heating one type oil to 400F for many hours, have you ever done that at home? Ever? Different oils break down at different rates. Cooking with olive oil for example is generally fine. I researched the breakdown temps a while back and olive oil is pretty resistant, and I only cook for a few minutes. Evoo is less stable, but cooking time and temp is the bigger factor.

Your body needs polyunsaturated fat, it can't make it, and it's important for cellular health among other things.
Polyunsaturated fats are essential fats. That means they're required for normal body functions but your body can't make them. So you must get them from food. Polyunsaturated fats are used to build cell membranes and the covering of nerves. They are needed for blood clotting, muscle movement, and inflammation.

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BRUTE
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by BRUTE » Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:27 am

olive oil is 70% monounsaturated, 15% polyunsaturated, and 15% saturated. the human body requires a tiny bit of polyunsaturated fats, but not much. polyunsaturated fats are very reactive in the body and tend to cause the smaller, denser LDL cholesterol particles that end up stuck in the artery walls, causing heart disease. on the other hand, monounsaturated and saturated fats tend to cause large, fluffy particles and therefore do not contribute to heart disease.

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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by Augustus » Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:02 am

Citation needed, this is big news to me. Are you lumping Omega 3 and Omega 6 together as equally bad?

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BRUTE
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by BRUTE » Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:45 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olive_oil

citation not needed unless Augustus provides one for his claim.

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C40
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by C40 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:03 pm

BRUTE wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:15 pm
...rendering what an individual eats completely irrelevant.
:shock: :shock:

uhhhh... are you referring here to only the type of food and not quantity?


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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by BRUTE » Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:09 pm

C40 wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:03 pm
BRUTE wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:15 pm
...rendering what an individual eats completely irrelevant.
:shock: :shock:

uhhhh... are you referring here to only the type of food and not quantity?
no, both type and quantity. both CAN have an effect, but they're not necessarily the only factors.

it has been demonstrated that insulin and cortisol can be manipulated by lack of sleep, low quality sleep, sleep at the wrong time, work stress, environmental stressors (noise, air quality, people), high-carb foods, high-protein foods, meal frequency, and probably more.

it's like a bottleneck. if humans eat 5 meals with tons of sugar per day, their insulin will be chronically high, no matter how good their sleep or how relaxed they are.

on the other hand: if humans are lacking sleep and are stressed, it doesn't matter how good their diet is, their insulin will still be chronically elevated, rendering them unable to use much of their own body fat, and even gaining body fat.

food is overrated as a factor in body composition, almost as much as exercise. that's why no combination of diet and exercise will work for all humans - for many, that's not their metabolic bottleneck.
Last edited by BRUTE on Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by BRUTE » Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:22 pm

Augustus' own link (MDA) says this:
The story as commonly told is, roughly, that unsaturated fat-rich LDL are inherently unstable and prone to oxidative damage, so eating a lot of unsaturated fats will mean vulnerable LDL and eating lots of saturated fats will mean stable LDL. Since the primary fat in olive oil is the unsaturated monounsaturated oleic acid, the common idea is that eating too much olive oil will make LDL vulnerable to oxidation like the other unsaturated fats.
this is exactly what brute is saying about PUFAs (polyunsaturated fatty acids).

olive oil is LOW in PUFA, as per the wikipedia link brute posted above.

brute never said anything against olive oil. in fact, brute is fond of it. Augustus is the one who confused olive oil with an oil high in PUFAs (generally these are the seed oils like grapeseed oil, soybean oil, canola oil).

basically, most MUFAs and SFAs are fine even in large quantities. they occur in nature: MUFAs are abundant in naturally fatty plants like avocado and olives, SFAs in animal fats and a few plants like coconuts. the human metabolism is pretty well adapted to them. PUFAs from pressed seeds/grains are a relatively recent invention, and the human body is not well-adapted to them. they started coming around after the fat scare, in the 50s and onwards.

trans fats are PUFAs that are chemically altered to make them more stable, like SFAs. (PUFAs are always liquid, SFAs can be solid, like butter and coconut oil). thus in order to make margarine and the like, humans tried to chemically alter PUFAs, creating trans fats. trans fats are just the worst.

it's probably more useful not to think purely in the categories of PUFA, MUFA, or SFA. fish oil contains good PUFAs, like omega 3 and 6, and a certain amount is necessary. pressed seed oils, on the other hand, are also PUFAs - but they're bad in high quantities, i.e. when used as a staple instead of SFAs from animal fat.

since Augustus brings up Mark's Daily Apple, here's Mark on PUFAs:
https://www.marksdailyapple.com/polyunsaturated-fat/

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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by C40 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:27 pm

What percentage of humans would you say are so affected by naturally poor insulin response (or by having moderate levels of stress cause a poor insulin response) to the extent that the things that work for most people (good diet (type and quantity of food), exercise, normal sleep duration) to be ineffective?


Aside from these things, is it correct that over any substantial period of time (>1 month), caloric deficit of significance will always means fat loss? (no matter levels of stress, hormone imbalance, etc.)

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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by BRUTE » Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:39 pm

C40 wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:27 pm
What percentage of humans would you say are so affected by naturally poor insulin response (or by having moderate levels of stress cause a poor insulin response) to the extent that the things that work for most people (good diet (type and quantity of food), exercise, normal sleep duration) to be ineffective?
that's of course hard to say. would C40 argue that "good diet" + "exercise" (excluding sleep) work for most humans? brute has read that American humans sleep on average 1 hour less than they did 50 years ago or so. this would mean a dramatic percentage of them would have sleep deprivation induced insulin problems, rendering their diet/exercise efforts more difficult or even useless.

brute would speculate that maybe 20-30% of humans in the west are affected so much that diet + exercise won't help them at all, even if strict. a further 50% are still negatively affected, where they can have success with diet + exercise, but it's very difficult.
C40 wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:27 pm
Aside from these things, is it correct that over any substantial period of time (>1 month), caloric deficit of significance will always means fat loss? (no matter levels of stress, hormone imbalance, etc.)
what does "caloric deficit" mean here? brute's point is that CO is adjusted by the body to CI, making it impossible to sustain a caloric deficit for long periods unless one is fasting completely. brute has experience his body turning down CO to 800-1000kcal/day over the period of 1-2 months.

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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by C40 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:59 pm

BRUTE wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:39 pm
brute would speculate that maybe 20-30% of humans in the west are affected so much that diet + exercise won't help them at all, even if strict. a further 50% are still negatively affected, where they can have success with diet + exercise, but it's very difficult.
Wow, that's a lot.

Of these effected people, how many of them would you say had naturally poor insulin responses vs. having it caused by stress levels?

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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by Augustus » Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:11 pm

BRUTE wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:22 pm
Augustus' own link (MDA) says this:
The story as commonly told is, roughly, that unsaturated fat-rich LDL are inherently unstable and prone to oxidative damage, so eating a lot of unsaturated fats will mean vulnerable LDL and eating lots of saturated fats will mean stable LDL. Since the primary fat in olive oil is the unsaturated monounsaturated oleic acid, the common idea is that eating too much olive oil will make LDL vulnerable to oxidation like the other unsaturated fats.
this is exactly what brute is saying about PUFAs (polyunsaturated fatty acids).
Augustus' own link's next sentence says
So, what does the research show?

Most studies show that extra virgin olive oil either reduces measurable oxidized LDL or reduces measurable markers for oxidized LDL in humans.
My question is where is the research that shows that all pufas cause inflammation? The reason I ask is that everything I've read says fish oils and nuts are good for you. Is this not the case? If not, what research has specifically identified fish oil and nuts as bad? They are high in pufas. I am genuinely curious.

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BRUTE
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by BRUTE » Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:12 pm

C40 wrote:Of these effected people, how many of them would you say had naturally poor insulin responses vs. having it caused by stress levels?
probably less than 10% genetic. maybe more if including epigenetic.

if brute looks at very old movies, or even ancient stories, fat humans have always existed. but they used to be pretty rare. seems like most communities had at least one token fat human, but most humans were "normal", or what would nowadays be considered "lean".

so brute instinctively guesses that it's mostly environmental, which could include multi-generational factors like epigenetics.

several posts ago brute asked C40 a question:
what time does C40 wake up naturally when there are no jobs/social obligations/alarm clocks?

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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by Smashter » Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:14 pm

BRUTE wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:39 pm
brute has read that American humans sleep on average 1 hour less than they did 50 years ago or so. this would mean a dramatic percentage of them would have sleep deprivation induced insulin problems, rendering their diet/exercise efforts more difficult or even useless.

brute would speculate that maybe 20-30% of humans in the west are affected so much that diet + exercise won't help them at all, even if strict.
The latest research shows that modern hunter-gatherers, who have virtually no obesity or chronic diseases, get less sleep than the average American.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... an-you-do/

Your arguments are starting to sound very defeatist and un-ERE. They are the diet equivalent of saying "advertising is so much better than it was fifty years ago, so it's not my fault if I go into debt buying crap I don't need."

Sure, it is harder to be healthy when our sleep is impacted. Just ask any new parent. But to say that diet and exercise cannot positively affect someone's life just because they are sleeping an hour less is absurd.

I believe in Brute's ability to overcome these challenges :)

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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by C40 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:16 pm

These days, around 7am.

Usually I wake up earlier (like 6am, no matter what time I go to bed) and go back to sleep for a while longer.

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BRUTE
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by BRUTE » Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:18 pm

Augustus wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:11 pm
Most studies show that extra virgin olive oil either reduces measurable oxidized LDL or reduces measurable markers for oxidized LDL in humans.
again, brute has never said anything negative about olive oil, and olive oil is mostly non-PUFA. Augustus is making several logical errors here:
1)brute never made the claim Augustus is refuting ("olive oil is bad")
2)olive oil is not actually high in PUFAs as Augustus seems to believe

therefore the article quoted by Augustus is perfectly in accordance with what brute is saying.
Augustus wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:11 pm
My question is where is the research that shows that all pufas cause inflammation? The reason I ask is that everything I've read says fish oils and nuts are good for you. Is this not the case? If not, what research has specifically identified fish oil and nuts as bad? They are high in pufas. I am genuinely curious.
1.not all PUFAs are bad, mostly pressed seed PUFAs in high volume
2.fish oil is perfectly fine
3.nuts are probably mostly fine if not overdone

brute's last post explained specifically that not all PUFAs are created equal.

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BRUTE
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Re: What Do You Eat for Weight Loss?

Post by BRUTE » Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:20 pm

C40 wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:16 pm
These days, around 7am.

Usually I wake up earlier (like 6am, no matter what time I go to bed) and go back to sleep for a while longer.
for brute, it is 9:30am-10:30am. yet brute has to get up at 8am the latest to make it to work on time.

does it sound reasonable that a night owl, who's deprived of 1.5-2.5h of sleep every work night, would on average have worse insulin sensitivity than a lark who is perfectly in alignment with current work times?

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