Work vs. Exercise

[BRUTE]

BTW: The 16/8 fasting protocol is extremely easy for me, so I'm not exactly sure how it is going to prove helpful?

brute had the same experience. upon trying IF for a day or two, brute thought "this is so easy, why has brute not been doing this forever?" in fact, brute is rarely hungry even when doing a 23/1 warrior diet. exceptions are when brute snacks in the morning, then he actually gets hungry in the afternoon, and on strength workout days and the day after, where brute feels a vague craving for meat (likely protein for muscle repair).

but not to despair! brute is actually convinced this is a good sign. why would a human eat when they're not hungry? and despite it "not being hard", brute has lost a LOT of fat doing this, and likely gained some muscle, too (harder to measure).

[7Wannabe5]

jennypenny said: I don't have the body to look like that photo, but I've got the accoutrements.

lol- I figured you would have the accoutrements. I have to re-center on the fact that the reason why I joined this forum in the first place was that I need to improve my "adult masculine" functioning. I am not going to be able to achieve MY goals or complete MY projects if I am not able to exert more self-discipline, authority in relationship to others and maintain stronger boundaries. Since I am even more impressionable than most people, I find a bit of "costuming" and/or "posturing" helpful. I subscribe to this sort of mish-mash simplified Jungian archetype behavioral modification model towards personal growth. When I started in therapy, I was comfortable or felt natural in my adult-feminine and juvenile-masculine energies, but not in my juvenile feminine or adult masculine energies. I have been comfortable in my juvenile feminine energy for a number of years now, but I am still somewhat blocked to my adult masculine energy. It suddenly dawned on me that I have been trying to move towards my adult masculine quadrant by starting in my juvenile masculine quadrant, and I haven't been very successful with that, so maybe I ought to try to move towards my adult masculine quadrant from my adult feminine quadrant. Thus, the "costume" above.

I went from being a very skinny kid with severe asthma to 5'9" and everybody thought I looked like I was a fully formed 19 in just a year or two. When I was 13 I looked like an adult woman, and tried to behave like one, but there was another girl on my street who was a skinny little jock, and she would whip icy snowballs at me on the way to school. It was so frustrating for me because I knew that I could just smush her like a bug because she was so much smaller than me, but I was no longer allowed to behave in that manner. The societal rules were massively reinforced in my personal realm, because I had a mother who was subject to bi-polar rages. She would go on shopping binges, were not at all unlike drinking binges, and then fly into fits when she ran out of money or suddenly realized that the home she had neglected was now a mess. Since, although very intelligent and well-educated, she was from a working class background and my father was from an upper middle-class background, the message I received over and over again from my only functional parent, was "Be a gentlewoman. Be a lady." or, "Be gentle, like a woman is supposed to be. Don't be like your mother." Luckily, my working class maternal grandmother who was sort of a more sexy Rosie-the-Riveter type was also a loving presence in my life, so I did have another model. She was hot-tempered (but never with me), liked to bet on the ponies, drank beer with her brothers, had husbands and lovers, took me to the black-market basement beauty parlor where she had her hair colored bright strawberry blonde, and refused to move out of the little house she bought for herself even when the neighborhood became very dangerous. IOW, she had a lot of what I would call "juvenile masculine" or "fun, adventurous, independent" energy, but she died broke, because she couldn't maintain her own boundaries when it came to gambling or her personal boundaries in relationship to her bad-seed son (my half-uncle.)

Anyways, I don't want to end up married again just because I was so well-trained for the "gentle-woman" role, and I don't want to end up like my grandmother either. I want to have my own realm or domain, and I want to have strong, but not rigid, boundaries. That's what I think the "costume" above communicates. If I think that is what I look like, or what I want to look like, then that is how I will behave, and that is what I will bring into existence through my behavior. A person who is somewhat hesitant to wear high-heeled boots in public because she thinks she looks "too dominant" when she does that, should not try to make herself more acceptably tiny by dieting to reduce mass. The fact that I am on the right track now was completely reinforced for me when one of my lovers, upon being informed that I was going to embark on a strength-training mission, said "I don't want to see you with more muscles." and I was like "Uh-huh, right, gotcha. Gracious, gentle and pretty. That's the costume that's buying me this 'free' dinner. " I am so over it.

[stand@desk]

They say "You are a victim or a hero of the rules you set for yourself." Something to keep in mind...

The thing about running..people think it's all or nothing. To get into it you can do a few steps of running, a few steps of walking..slowly bump up the running if you want to. I think people don't realize that when people start running from not running their bodies and joints and ligaments need time to adjust and strengthen. It happens over time. Bodies adapt. So I am just saying that the typical dismissal of running without any examination of how to get into it is so common but in reality there are so many runners out there that started from not running. It's not impossible. Plus, the body grows a healthier cardiovascular system after running, capillaries and blood vessels operate more efficiently, the body gets better. Why wouldn't anyone want to do that for themselves? End Rant.

[7Wannabe5]

@BRUTE: I mostly agree. One of the interesting, true-in-my-experience things the author you linked mentioned or recommended was that some people do need some fructose at some point in the practice. What was always my downfall on strict Atkins-like plans would be that I would be that after a bit of discomfort the first day, I would be fine-not-hungry for a number of days or even a few weeks, but then suddenly I would find myself beset with incredibly intense sugar cravings. I would have vivid dreams about cookies, and would eventually find myself in a 7-11 parking lot gnawing down an entire bag of teriyaki flavored beef jerky just to get at the tiny bit of sugar in the baked-in-sauce. This wasn't at all just a case of feeling-sorry-for-poor-me because I can't have my favorite treats. I am talking intense physiological craving. I think if I occasionally allowed myself something like a bowl of berries with a tiny bit of honey and cream this wouldn't happen.

@stand@desk: First, I would note for the record that I absolutely believe that for some people, depending on inherent temperament and geno/phenotype, if you had to pick any one activity, running ought to be it. I absolutely, based on much personal experience, do not believe that I am one of those people. I did end up quite overweight for a number of years, after having an appendectomy while 6 months pregnant and still a bit overweight after my first pregnancy etc. etc. (My bad. Would make different choices if in same situation again.) But, I have never been somebody who went for an extended period of time without regularly engaging in some form of regular exercise or physical activity. I become functionally depressed (consistently maintain my daily responsibilities, but feel like I have cement boots on and I am moving through molasses) if I don't get some exercise and some fresh air and sunshine on a consistent basis. So, it's not at all just about how I end up looking. I have tried running as my form of exercise on numerous occasions throughout my life. I have run on treadmills, streets and trails. I have stuck with running for at least 6 months. I have tried to make it fun for myself by adding music, setting goals, and/or pretending like somebody is chasing me down the trail. I simply have found that I do not like it as much as some forms of exercise, and it is not as productive as other forms of exercise for ME, in part due to the fact that I often end up with something like plantar fascia or a twisted swollen knee when I run. What has worked best for me, when I have the discipline to stick with it for a number of months, has been something like the old-school Jane Fonda workout or Denise Austin Strength Training bootcamp. These workouts are more pain-inducing than running, and less likely to offer a certain "high" (since I am also aware of the fact that a high that is very similar to runner's high but 10x as intense can be caused by allowing somebody to practice the art of shibari upon your body, I am also quite cynical about anybody communicating that this is proof that it is particularly good for you) but I end up looking and feeling better when I do them.

At the moment, I stand somewhere between 5'8" and 5'9' and my measurements are 42/32/44.5. I have a relatively long torso and short limbs, so according to an interesting book I once read on the topic of how to best dress your particular body, my figure-type is a variation on the classic shorter waisted hour-glass figure, which is known as the roller-coaster figure type. If I were to do nothing but start running and reduce my caloric intake, with the intention of losing 3 inches off my waist, I would likely end up something like 38/29/40.5. My arms would be thinner and just slightly more toned. My collar-bone would be sticking out and my breasts would be smaller and tending towards an unattractive empty envelope appearance. My legs and butt would be thinner and more toned, but my butt would be relatively thinner compared to my waist and it would be just as flat at the bottom as it is now. OTOH, if I did something more like the Denise Austin Strength Training bootcamp, I would end up more like 40/29/41.5 and my collar bone wouldn't be sticking out and my breasts would be fuller and better blended in with my pectoral muscles, my arms would be more toned, and my butt would be lifted higher and more rounded. Because I am getting older, I am going to have to work even harder at building muscle relative to losing fat in order to avoid looking relatively more like an old chicken with flesh falling off the bone rather than something still on the firm side of over-ripe. Therefore, I am thinking that going even more for buff rather than thin is what I want to do, so i want a routine/practice that is even more focused on strength-training vs. aerobics than the Denise Austin Bootcamp routine with which I previously achieved my personal best level of success in the realm of getting into good shape. When I was 44 years old, had been doing this routine consistently for over a year, and weighed 169 lbs., nobody ever communicated that I might benefit from losing weight, but I still sometimes got advice that I might want to strength train a bit more, especially focusing on my tending towards chubby thighs and upper arms.

[enigmaT120]

Not all exercise makes you more hungry. Swimming does, bicycling maybe a little, and running doesn't. At least until you start going for 20 milers or something.

[7Wannabe5]

@enigmaT120: Clearly, on this forum, at least, debates about nutrition and exercise are not unlike debate about religion. When it comes to nutrition and exercise, I am kind of philosophically agnostic or Unitarian Universalist, but personally inclined towards doing whatever seemed to best function towards leading me towards my own personal salvation (inclusive of compliance) in the past. My experience is that a relatively high fat, high protein diet that doesn't completely eliminate sugar works best for ME, and I lost a ton of weight very quickly whenever I have attempted Atkins or fasted for Ramadan. My experience is that a likely relatively wimpy version of HIIT is what has worked best for me in terms of exercise (if I was going to just choose one, and spend less than an hour on it, 5 days/week.) Therefore, given that I have somewhat slacked off on attending any church on a regular basis in recent months, I am considering that something like a more intense version of HIIT and intermittent fasting might be a good choice for my new place of worship. I am more worried about compliance than successful results (body composition and health factors) if I do adhere. I do not believe in willpower for scientific reasons, so I am trying to be smart/clever/thoughtful about my choices.

Anyways, I agree that running is much less likely to make me immediately feel hungry afterwards than swimming. This is likely due to thermal factors. A healthy seal isn't exactly lithe. Same sort of effect occurs when you enter a cool house after being outside in the heat. I knew a family that kept moving for employment reasons back and forth between Arizona and Michigan. The entire family gained and lost weight with the moves. I think air conditioning might be one of the key factors behind the obesity epidemic. I don't think drinking cold water or other beverages is good for most people either.

[BRUTE]

if I was going to just choose one, and spend less than an hour on it, 5 days/week

for realz though, it doesn't even need to be 10 minutes/day. plenty of ways to fuck up every muscle and the cardiovascular system in 7Wannabe5's body in 1-5 minutes. HIT (=slow motion) push-ups, isometric holds at maximum muscle tension, tabata squats..

I do not believe in willpower for scientific reasons

high five

[BRUTE]

So I am just saying that the typical dismissal of running without any examination of how to get into it is so common but in reality there are so many runners out there that started from not running. It's not impossible. Plus, the body grows a healthier cardiovascular system after running, capillaries and blood vessels operate more efficiently, the body gets better. Why wouldn't anyone want to do that for themselves? End Rant.

nobody is saying that running doesn't have some positive training effects. but they come at higher cost than other options, and not all of the effects are positive. for example, endurance athletes typically have very large, but very thin-walled hearts - which is unhealthy. (just as the opposite, the small but thick-skinned powerlifter-heart, is unhealthy). running also is bad for the joints, especially for fat people, and it takes a lot of time. in addition, distance running releases all the wrong hormones - lots of cortisol (reduces muscle and in general a stress hormone), no testosterone (which builds muscle). unless the specific goal is to improve distance running performance, brute would not recommend distance running to anyone. sprints are another matter, and maybe <2 mile all-out runs or something along those lines.

there are easier, cheaper (mostly in terms of time), and healthier ways to improve the cardiovascular system. HIT is one of them. HIIT is one of them. circle training is another.

[stand@desk]

http://strengthrunning.com/2012/06/debu ... ic-cardio/

An article speaking to the cortisol side of distance running. Seems like running in moderation is good for you. But I always like to hear other viewpoints to refine my activity. I know I could definitely benefit from lifting more weights myself.

[enigmaT120]

I lift weights, too. My poor heart just doesn't know what to do!

[7Wannabe5]

BRUTE said: for realz though, it doesn't even need to be 10 minutes/day. plenty of ways to fuck up every muscle and the cardiovascular system in 7Wannabe5's body in 1-5 minutes. HIT (=slow motion) push-ups, isometric holds at maximum muscle tension, tabata squats..

Right, or you can lure other people into lending their muscles and will to the task of contorting your body into unnatural poses. Same diff.

Seriously, I read up a bit on the Tabata method and it seems like a very efficient and frugal way to go. I'm thinking 4 minutes front squats, 4 minutes rest, 4 minutes thrusters. Of course, it will still add up to almost an hour total devoted to training because there will first have to be the 40 minute period where I am psyching myself up to torture myself in such a manner once again.

Continuing to have zero problem with 16/8 fasting protocol. In fact, I went past the 16 hour mark without even thinking about it. But then I ate a bunch of cherries and a jalapeno cheese burger, but that was around 2:30 (almost 5 hours ago) , and I'm only a teeny bit hungry again.

[BRUTE]

Seriously, I read up a bit on the Tabata method and it seems like a very efficient and frugal way to go. I'm thinking 4 minutes front squats, 4 minutes rest, 4 minutes thrusters.

^^

after doing 4 minutes of bodyweight squat tabata, brute can't sit or walk. he isn't sure either weights or more than 1 interval are needed.

[7Wannabe5]

@BRUTE: I can do body weight squats without too much difficulty, although obviously doing them as fast as possible for 20 seconds makes the exercise aerobic. I can't even do one boy style body weight push-up with good form, but I have to do something for upper body strength. Maybe plank-rows for the second interval? Those are easy enough for me that I could do them with some speed. Or maybe I should forget about speed and just attempt to do one push-up with good form for 4 minutes?

[BRUTE]

brute requests to let him know how the tabata squats went 7wannabe5 has been warned.

with regards to achieving a first push-up, rows are good but a pulling motion. both push and pull are great to be able to do.

brute recommends finding a variation of the push-up that 7wannabe5 can do. on the knees, say, or leaning on a chair/table. then either practice with repetitions or isometric hold in a position that is challenging, but doable. it should lead to muscle burning in the triceps and shoulders. the "boy push-up" is no different than any other pushing exercise here. brute is currently practicing handstand push-ups (not literally while he is typing, but in the last weeks). he can't even do a full one yet, but he just goes as close as possible, and can do 5 half-assed ones or hold the position for 10-20 seconds. if after 5 repetitions, the shoulder and triceps want to quit, it's strength work. it'll feel similar for 7wannabe5 with whatever level she's at.

[7Wannabe5]

Okay, so I walked 1 mile hauling 80 lbs. in a cart. Then I hacked weeds for a long time. Then I squatted down and planted seeds and pulled weeds for a short time. Then I walked another mile without a cart. Then it was after noon, and I was HUNGRY, so I ate a big bowl of plain grass fed whole milk yogurt, locally grown blueberries, almonds and a bit of honey. Then I fell asleep for 10 minutes in front of the fan. Then I did:

Tabata squats: 21/19/17/17/17/13/12/12
Rest
Tabata girl push-ups: 12/8/8/8/5/2/2/give-up

The squats really weren't too bad. Maybe I need to go lower or faster? My legs feel like they are recovered already, but my arms and shoulders are burning.

[BRUTE]

burning sounds like the right intensity. regarding squats, looks like 7wannabe5 is doing a fair amount, so "faster" is probably not necessary. how low was 7wannabe5 squatting? personally, for tabata or other high-speed reps, brute doesn't go below parallel (unlike with heavy squats).

squats give brute very delayed soreness, so maybe 7wannabe5 will feel something tomorrow. or maybe she is just really good at squats very possible. should tabata squats turn out to be trivial, brute could imagine isometric holds at the hardest parts of the squat, squatting with weight, or working towards single-legged squats.

[Dave]

I hadn't heard of the Tabata method before. I did Tabata squats tonight...and now my legs are like jello .

For some perspective, I have not done any squats in the last year or so. Prior to that, I did some low-rep bodyweight squat sets for several months. Several years prior to that, I did powerlifting for a spell and could parallel/below parallel squat 360 lbs for sets of 5. I've lost a lot of muscle mass and strength since then, but just one night of doing Tabata squats brought back a host of good memories . Like Brute, I recall the real soreness is fairly delayed.

Friday will be fun.

[George the original one]

You're welcome to come play "log toss" and "split firewood" any time you want... it's great exercise!

[jacob]

I don't know if Tabata squats with an isometric hold is some exception to the rule, but the Tabata protocol (google for research papers) specifies 20 seconds of 100% work followed by 10 seconds of REST, repeat for several cycles. It can be used for any kind of full body exercise.

The 20/10 second split is statisticially optimized. Yours may be 25/12 or whatever, so don't get hung up on the specific numbers.

Insanity Max:30 leans heavily on Tabata style workouts. They are also popular in Crossfit.

[enigmaT120]

You're welcome to come play "log toss" and "split firewood" any time you want... it's great exercise!

I have to run, bike, and lift weights throughout the year just to be able to do the log toss and fire splits. I split a bunch of Golden Chinkapin a week ago. That stuff is a lot tougher than my usual Douglas-fir, alder, and maple.