Work vs. Exercise

[7Wannabe5]

One of the many interesting observations made by the young Dolly Freed in the frugal-lifestyle classic "Possum Living" is that there is a difference between work and exercise. At the time, 1970s, she and her father followed the practice of drinking a lot of strong sugary tea and then going out to take a long run. She indicated that it may have been the case that her father added additional potent potables to his invigorating beverage. She also discussed the difference between working all day at a factory vs. double digging a garden in the morning and fishing in the afternoon.

I am currently feeling a bit frustrated due to some confusing conflict between my desire to lose some weight, and my desire to engage in some creative projects that involve manual labor. I hate engaging in useless physical activity, such as riding an exercise bike like a hamster on a wheel to nowhere, when I have tasks on my ToDo list such as haul 16 gallons of water in cart to garden, but it's like my hunger mechanism immediately switches over to strong signal of "Eat more. Bulk up. Eat more. Bulk up." when I choose manual labor over exercise. For instance, I spent the whole afternoon and evening yesterday digging compacted soil, and loading heavy logs into and out of a truck (giant hugel-bed finally constructed- Yay!!!.) When I arrived back home, I wolfed down two plates full of whole wheat pasta with sauteed greens, and fish baked with lemon-wine sauce that my sister had made, and I didn't feel overly stuffed and just fell over and slept like I was one of the logs I had hauled. But, then when I stepped on the scale this morning, I had gained 2 lbs.

So, it seems to me that in order to acquire the popular fit-and-healthy look of thin and toned, I would have to lead the useless, boring life of an affluent kept or independently wealthy woman, where I just spend my entire morning in a spin studio and then sit around sipping green tea and broth all afternoon long while leafing through a fashion magazine or internet shopping for a new sofa for the beach house. Since, I have on occasion, been able to afford such a lifestyle, I know that I wouldn't get the "Eat more. Bulk up. Eat more. Bulk up." signal from my body, if this was my practice.

Of course, one of the obvious answers might be "Do both.", but I highly question whether I have the willpower to, for instance, make myself put on some fitness clothing and then ride my bike very fast down to the river, and then come home and change into my overalls and haul water and dig. Also, my rationalization for not doing both would be that then I wouldn't ever have enough time to read a book and my brain would rot away. Also, I don't know if additional aerobic activity would eliminate or mitigate the "bulk up, eat more" hunger mechanism of the manual labor, although it does seem highly likely that it would result in net more calories burned.

Has anyone else experienced this problem and come up with reasonable solution?

[stand@desk]

I'd say try running. And work at delayed gratification perhaps? I was thinking about this same thing today.

To live a life of eating delectable food stuffs whenever I wanted because I have the luxury to do so, and then get tired because my body can't digest it properly and then I have to take naps to sleep off the over indulgence. Or to eat very modestly and selectively and have better brainpower and creativity and resourcefulness to live my day.

The reality is that a combination of these styles will comprise one's life, but in theory one wants to live completely one way or another and it is very rare to find an individual who does so. Only very rigid people can live this way and most of us are somewhat flexable.

The warrior diet is always an option. I have experimented with it but after I go for a morning run I feel I should be taking in some calories before I go to work so I have not been warrioring it lately.

[sky]

Get an hour of cardio activity in every day, walking, running, bicycling, swimming or ???.

Lets be realistic. No one is force feeding you. You put every mouthful of food in your own mouth, so if you don't like what you are eating, only you can change it.

[7Wannabe5]

stand@desk said: I'd say try running. And work at delayed gratification perhaps? I was thinking about this same thing today.

sky said: Get an hour of cardio activity in every day, walking, running, bicycling, swimming or ???.

Lets be realistic. No one is force feeding you. You put every mouthful of food in your own mouth, so if you don't like what you are eating, only you can change it.

I agree, in theory. What I am considering here is realistic practice given my druthers, innate tendencies, genotype and other priorities. I would note for the record that I am one of the minority of people who managed to lose a sizeable chunk of weight at one point of their life, and then keep it off for over 10 years, so I am not completely lacking in internal fortitude or enough clever foresight to trick 5 minutes-in-the-future me for the benefit of 5 years-in-the-future-me. If I want something then I usually will get it, eventually, one way or another.

Anyways, I am apparently currently engaging in the bad forum practice of creating 3 threads which are basically on the same topic-lol. I just did the intelligent thing which I should have done right away, perhaps instead of EVER weighing myself on a scale again, which was to measure my waistline. My recent extremely rigorous manual labor activities combined with sizable portions of reasonably whole and healthy foodstuffs, resulted in a 2 lb. weight gain, but also a half inch reduction in my waist measure. So, I am gaining density, but increasing mass. So, IMO, it basically comes down to a matter of aesthetics rather than health, given the current adoption of the World Health Organization of waist-to-hip ratio being more relevant than BMI. Would I prefer to be healthy with a more curvy, muscular appearance, or healthy with a leaner appearance, given that the leaner look is currently more culturally valued, but the curvier look allows me more sensual pleasure and would likely be less time-intensive overall given that my genotype is ENDO/meso? Besides being a foodie, my only other vice is sex, so if the lean look were to totally overwhelm the curvy-muscular look in social popularity, I might be externally motivated more towards the first choice, but since the obesity epidemic is in full swing, I do not currently experience any difficulty in obtaining partners with the ability to throw be up upon a counter-top, and if anything, I have a slight preference (admittedly likely learned contextual prejudice, because somebody who is more into my type is likely going to bring it on a bit stronger) in favor of men who prefer curvy women vs. men who prefer leaner women (but skinny girls need love too! so no hating.), so that won't work. I like attractive clothing, even if I refuse to ever pay full price at a mall, but being able to throw on a size 6 and have it fit perfectly vs. being able to throw on a size 12 and have it fit perfectly, does not seem like a good trade for the calorie reduction.

Anyways, I have run in the past, because it is efficient, and cheap, but I always end up injuring myself in some manner that completely sidelines me for a period of time, so I wouldn't choose that activity again. I do already walk for an hour a day, almost every day, because my garden is a mile away from my apartment, and I walk or bike for transportation every where else too. Maybe I could figure out someplace that would be worthwhile to go most days that would require a good deal of biking to get there? I can swim for free at the high school, but only in the evening, and it has been difficult to fit that in with my social life recently. Otherwise, swimming would definitely be my preferred aerobic activity. Maybe I could sign up for a dance class and ride my bike there. I like dancing as much as swimming. Like, they would both be level 8 activities for me, especially if I can swim in a lake rather than a pool, and hiking would be a 7, but running would be a 3, and biking would only be a 5, because I am too afraid of getting hit by a car.

[EdithKeeler]

I would say not to get too caught up re. the number on the scale. A 2 pound increase could just be water weight, hormonal fluctuations, etc. Too, if you're engaging in really hard manual labor, you may be building some muscle, which weighs more. I'd just focus on how your clothes fit and how you feel, and weigh in once a week and just leave it at that. I think there's something to be said, too, for "eat when you're hungry, and wait 20 minutes before thinking about seconds.

[7Wannabe5]

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[BRUTE]

keto, intermittent fasting. leangains.com has a guide on how to lose fat while gaining muscle via IF.

[7Wannabe5]

@BRUTE: Thanks for the link. Maybe I should go more in that direction. My immediate reaction was something like "But, I don't want to look like Joyce Vedral!", but then I realized that maybe there was something particular I didn't like about her appearance that didn't have so much to do with her muscular development. So, then I happened upon some pictures of Corinna Everson, who at 5'8" weighs 165 lbs off-season, and is now 58 years old. That was very encouraging, because it seems so much more realistic for me. When I was in my early 40s, I dated a very big, buff guy whose first "wife" was a serious female body builder. Their son ended up to be a 6'8" pro-football player. He said I could compete in body-building if I tried. (That was after I had been doing Denise Austin bootcamp strength training workout for a year, so I was kind of buff for me.) A couple other people have told me the same thing. Nobody ever tells me that I could compete in running. I don't like doing things that I naturally totally suck at with no hope for making the grade. Also, nobody would ever, ever, ever think I looked like a boring affluent, aging suburban woman if I looked anything like that!!!

Also, it makes more sense in terms of web-of-goals, since I probably find 8 out of 10 men I might encounter in a weight-room physically attractive, but maybe only 4 out of 10 at a running event, especially in my age range. A very smart person once told me "You can't logic yourself or anybody else into or out of attraction."

Also, intermittent fasting will likely co-ordinate fairly well with my camper-garden-survival project Take 2 which shall commence sometime very soon now that it has finally rained.

I will go back to my waist-to-weight ratio thread to record my progress.

[wood]

It seems that you do a lot of daily manual labor, how about turning some of it into efficient exercise? You say you walk for about an hour a day, would it be possible to make 10-15 of that time fast-running? The lifting you do, try make it very high intensity for 10-15 minutes? This will make everything more efficient in your web-of-goals-life at the expense of some practical challenges, like being sweaty when you'd rather not. But it will also improve your cardio and metabolism, and depending on type of exercise, shape your body.

[7Wannabe5]

@wood: I was thinking kind of the same thing, but there are some practicalities that limit my ability to make my manual labor more aerobic. For instance, if I try to go much faster when I am hauling 16 gallons of water in a cart, I will likely end up tipping it over, and trying to be faster while wielding a tool might prove dangerous. I would note that I never seem to be out-of-breath during the course of my daily activities (including such activities as going up and down staircases or jumping rope with 5 year old kids when I am teaching or biking 10 miles against head wind along the river )but it is never the case that I am not doing something because it would cause me to be out-of-breath, but rather because I simply would have no reason to do it outside of set purpose of exercising my lungs and heart. My limitations due to lack of upper body strength are much more noticeable. Flexibility and lower body strength are rarely noticeable challenges either. I don't have to think about squatting down, or getting back up again, but I do have to consider whether I will be able to lift and carry various items. I can lift 10 gallons of water in a Rubbermaid tub up into a truck bed, but just barely. Anyways, I am going to start a strength training regimen, and I figure my aerobic capacity will sort of naturally ratchet up with my strength because the increased strength will auto-pilot allow me to work faster. For instance, if I can pick up a 10 gallon tub of water, and walk across my lot with it at a fast clip then I naturally will.

[GandK]

keto, intermittent fasting. leangains.com has a guide on how to lose fat while gaining muscle via IF.

I enjoyed this. Thanks.

[steelerfan]

I have exercised for most of my adult life and have found that exercise has little to do with weight loss for pretty much the reasons you see. Any expenditure of calories through exercise makes you hungry. Its kind of why the biggest loser contestants gain it all back once they are off the show. At best exercise can boost your metabolism but you need to resist the urge to stuff in carbs. If you don't like to exercise in a boring manner - don't. If you do, pick things you like to do for other reasons than weight loss.

Some diet books even suggest not exercising but you would end up just being skinny fat after losing the muscle weight. I think if you want to lose weight you need to count calories and compare this to your base metabolic rate. Any exercise gain is a bonus - not to be counted or used as justification to treat yourself to a plate of pasta. Avoid excessive carbs (but not all) but pick your moments with them. Fasting works as well if it is planned out but not for me. Your body is hard wired to conserve weight by slowing down metabolism. Make sure you eat breakfast. Avoid eating late in the day if possible.

Decouple the notion that exercise has anything to do with weight loss. Exercise if you love it for other reasons (workout high/muscular tone improvement) It is not easy to lose weight in your 50s. Your metabolism slows down and you will be pear shaped unless you purposefully change behavior. (I know). Not that that matters but if it is there are no silver bullets out there other than rich person solutions such as liposuction and lap band. And based on your pics you are no where near needing either.

[wood]

@wood: I was thinking kind of the same thing, but there are some practicalities that limit my ability to make my manual labor more aerobic.

Practical problems that cause disturbance in other parts of your life should be considered (like e.g. being sweaty for hours with no means of showering before an outing with your lover). But when it comes to the exercises themselves, creativity is your friend. The rope skipping, try carrying something small and heavy in your hands while doing it (e.g. rocks). That should get you breathing. Hauling the water cart, is there a way you could make your legs heavier? I sometimes do short jogs in heavy boots, its a very efficient running exercise but also something I rarely look forward to. Anything you lift & carry, try do a few extra lifts before dropping it. These ideas might not work if they feel as pointless as going for a bike/run, but atleast you can combine them with actual work. Apart from that, I second the notion that exercise should be something fun that improves something else than just your weight.

[BRUTE]

...

brute wanted to say that he agrees exercise is mostly useless for fat loss, basically only if the added glycogen depletion and subsequent regeneration through blood glucose is enough to push humans significantly into ketosis.

but brute disagrees on pretty much everything else steelerfan has said.

brute thinks
- counting calories is at best useless
- the body does not always slow metabolism when losing weight, only in certain situations (not keto/fasting, there are studies on this)
- breakfast is a bad idea and eating late is great (WarriorDiet)

@7wannabe5:

while it's nice to have an "active lifestyle", brute thinks it's less effort to just add a few minutes of strength exercises to each day, or every second day, than trying to incorporate everything into the lifestyle. yes, brute could sprint through the store, or carry his groceries home in an overhead press. but he could also just do 5-10 minutes of badly leveraged, mechanically disadvantageous strength work.

the trick isn't even to lift heavy weights, it is to be in a bad mechanical position.

standing upright: very mechanically efficient, 99% of humans can do it all day long
squatting: not as mechanically efficient, especially with tight hips. with sufficient flexibility, it becomes easy to rest at the bottom.
hovering in the middle of a squat, at the hardest part: very mechanically inefficient. just hovering here isometrically for 5-15 seconds is very hard for most humans, and will activate leg muscles like crazy.

what brute currently does is push-ups/hindu push-ups/handstand push-ups, squats, planks. just isometrically holding the most mechanically inefficient position of the movement gives a great strength workout. instead of isometrically holding, counting out 4 seconds to lower into the position, staying for 2, then raising back up in 4 more seconds, also makes the exercise significantly more strength-based than endurance-based. once in a while, brute will throw in high-volume, low-rest circle training for metabolic conditioning. tabata squats mess brute up for days.

[7Wannabe5]

@steelerfan: Thank for the advice. I know I am all over the place in my posts, but I have decided that I am not going to focus on weight loss at all, and just do whatever works to get my waist measure back below 29 inches and keep it there. I do not care how large my bottom remains, because that is not a health risk, and I have a slight preference for men who prefer that aesthetic because I believe that they tend towards being a bit more primal in their sexuality, and I have grown to appreciate that aesthetic myself over the years since I first fretted about not looking quite as coltish as Brooke Shields in my designer jeans. The scale is put away, and will not come out again. The tape measure shall be my only guide.

wood said: Practical problems that cause disturbance in other parts of your life should be considered (like e.g. being sweaty for hours with no means of showering before an outing with your lover).

Yeah, like I'd let a guy who had issues with me getting sweaty remain in my polyamorous circle. He better not squawk if I just slid down a mudbank, if he knows what's good for him.

exercise should be something fun that improves something else than just your weight.

Yup.

BRUTE said: could also just do 5-10 minutes of badly leveraged, mechanically disadvantageous strength work.

I suppose there is pretty much no justification for not doing this except for being a total wimp. BTW: The 16/8 fasting protocol is extremely easy for me, so I'm not exactly sure how it is going to prove helpful? The author sort of indicates that you should still be counting calories during the eating window, with pre-workout meal being smaller than post-workout meal and focus should be on whole foods, but doesn't offer many further explicit guidelines. I'm going to attempt some strength training, then I am going to bike 5 miles to meet one of my men for dinner, then I am going to bike around another 10 miles with him. I already logged about 4 miles of walking around town this morning, running errands and carrying a heavy bag. I am fine with having a good deal of my day engaged in physical activity if it doesn't seem like endless self-referential hamster wheel.

[zarathustra]

for body composition improvements:

nutrition > strength training > HIIT > cardio

for really getting nutrition right, EVERYONE is going to be unique here in exactly what works, and you have to experiment AND it will probably change over time depending on how dysfunctional/obese you were to start with, but it is highly likely that if you lowered your processed carbohydrate and sweets intake significantly or zeroed them out most of the time and upped your fat intake (working on balancing your EFAs especially), you would shed more fat, as brute alluded to. many people can do this without counting anything. however . . .

when it comes to calorie counting, it DOES matter to many people, particularly women who are trying to lose weight, and especially those last few pounds. the closer you get to the lower-end of healthy body fat, the more your body will fight it. however, i find that the more nutrient-dense and whole-food-esque the diet, the more nutrient needs are being taken care of and the more the appetite evens out and you don't crave as much food and especially don't crave as much shitty food.

i know you've been wanting to strength train for as long as I've "known" you, and you know i am a big fan of that. my body looks way better now than when i just lost a ton of weight with nutrition alone (i did low and very low carb eating, which i basically have stuck to ever since because i feel amazing on it and body-composition is much better for me). and some cardiovascular training is good for you, but it sounds like you are plenty active and active functionally, so I wouldn't really push much more than some weights if you want to add some nice looking firm roundness to your frame as well as support longevity and good bone mineral status.

doing much more indeed raises your body's hunger levels and often this becomes a downward spiral situation for most people, hence why cardio is always last in line for long-term sustainable body fat/weight loss.

the guy i am dating is always doing a million things to lose weight; focusing on cardio cardio cardio, some weights, yoga, running, hiking, rock climbing, etc and getting frustrated that he isn't losing much weight at all but he isn't realizing that (1) he is upping his calorie/energy balance requirements, causing him to eat more and (2) his macronutrient ratios are likely out of balance for his personal ideal nutrient partitioning. For example, I think he eats too many nuts and fruits (easy to over-eat). Nuts are high in calories and fruit is high in sugar which raises insulin which increases energy (fat) storage. both are full of awesomeness but need to be watched consumption-level-wise if you are watching your figure.

i am currently studying nutritional therapy, so if you'd like to be a practice client of mine, by all means let me know girl!

[jennypenny]

I struggle with the same issue. I have so many projects around here that I want to work on, but exercising saps a lot of my energy for tackling them. If I focus primarily on the projects, I know I'm not getting enough exercise. I also feel more of an urge to reward myself for completing projects, which is weird since I don't feel that way after exercising or sticking to a diet. I'm trying to view them as separate spheres now -- diet, exercise, and avoiding being sedentary. The project work falls under non-sedentary lifestyle, which is a different goal than exercising and eating well.

Of course, I talk a good game, but it's hard. Today is a total fail ... I ran 5 miles and then worked, so now I'm watching Amelie while drinking the last of a bottle of red wine with some seltzer and fruit from the garden tossed in. *sigh*

[zarathustra]

oh and i forgot to mention; with the 2 lbs overnight increase in weight . . . that was almost certainly water weight. you worked hard, you worked your muscles, and your body inflamed a little bit to heal those muscles, so it drew water there. it is likely that you would drop that 2 lbs off again within a few days. you also could've eaten more sodium than normal for you that day.

tape measures are the best for these things, so i applaud you on that. because i love data so much, i still weigh myself, but it's more out of curiosity and interest in correlation with other data points.

[7Wannabe5]

zarathustra said: i know you've been wanting to strength train for as long as I've "known" you, and you know i am a big fan of that. my body looks way better now than when i just lost a ton of weight with nutrition alone (i did low and very low carb eating, which i basically have stuck to ever since because i feel amazing on it and body-composition is much better for me). and some cardiovascular training is good for you, but it sounds like you are plenty active and active functionally, so I wouldn't really push much more than some weights if you want to add some nice looking firm roundness to your frame as well as support longevity and good bone mineral status.

I am already quite shapely, but not very firm. I want to look more like this:



My sister said this look is vaguely within the realm of possibility for me. That's basically the frame and shape that I have, but she is a lot more muscular. I figure I could still get away with eating a reasonable amount of groceries with this look, as opposed to anything a bit more Kate Moss like.

jennypenny said: The project work falls under non-sedentary lifestyle, which is a different goal than exercising and eating well.

That makes good sense. Often just adopting a more functional perspective is half the battle. I think another category could be something like doing more challenging reading or studying. Maybe a rule of thumb where I simply increase my total non-slacker time each day, and then kind of let the cards fall where they may.

[jennypenny]

I don't have the body to look like that photo, but I've got the accoutrements.