Fasting Can Regenerate Your Immune System

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Kriegsspiel
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Re: Fasting Can Regenerate Your Immune System

Post by Kriegsspiel »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:43 am
BRUTE wrote:even the bit of cream in 7Wannabe5's coffee and "full fat" greek yoghurt is basically no fat at all. it's very easy to overdo the fiber:fat ratio.
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I think maybe the problem was that I was drinking my approximately 18 cups of coffee prior to my meal black, and also drinking a good deal of water, because working in heat and humidity.
Good lord

7Wannabe5
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Re: Fasting Can Regenerate Your Immune System

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

My housemate has a 10 cup Bunn machine. Luckily, all of my extreme ENTP addictions are quite inexpensive, or my reputation for frugality would be shot to hell.

IlliniDave
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Re: Fasting Can Regenerate Your Immune System

Post by IlliniDave »

This keto stuff isn't for the faint of heart. I've never been shy about eating fat but this is the Big Leagues. 3/4 pound of bacon, a whole avocado, 1 tbsp coconut oil, 1 tbsp olive oil and 14g from a can of herring and I still needed more to hit my minimum. And since am a one-meal-a-day intermittent faster 5 days a week, that all comes in one sitting. :o

IlliniDave
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Re: Fasting Can Regenerate Your Immune System

Post by IlliniDave »

Well, it's pretty clear that it's going to be an either/or between 1 meal/day and keto for me. Lacking a gallbladder makes it too difficult handle copious amounts of fat all at once. I could go with C8 MCT oil for most of it I suppose. But I did come up with some very easy, fairly tasty, blueberry fat bombs. 8-)

BRUTE
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Re: Fasting Can Regenerate Your Immune System

Post by BRUTE »

IlliniDave wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:31 am
Lacking a gallbladder makes it too difficult handle copious amounts of fat all at once.
seriously? yea, that would do it - digesting fat is apparently tricky without one. there are even humans who recommend not do to keto/high fat without a gall bladder. brute isn't sure if it's dangerous or if the extra fat will just be pooped out.

IlliniDave
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Re: Fasting Can Regenerate Your Immune System

Post by IlliniDave »

BRUTE wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:08 pm

seriously? yea, that would do it - digesting fat is apparently tricky without one. there are even humans who recommend not do to keto/high fat without a gall bladder. brute isn't sure if it's dangerous or if the extra fat will just be pooped out.
From what I've read it's doable though possibly might have to limit fat to 60% of calories versus the more usual 70%. Some people without gall bladders have trouble with digesting fat, especially immediately after the surgery, but I never did--was pretty much back to normal eating the next day. I think going for years with a nonfunctional gallbladder caused me to adapt along the way. Bile comes from the liver and is stored/concentrated when not needed in the gallbladder. I've got to live with the slow, steady, non-concentrated product. C8 MCTs need almost no digestion and are converted to ketones very quickly. Otherwise, I'll have to spread out the fat intake to more closely match the liver's output.

One can supplement with ox bile, often recommended immediately after surgery. Yeah, no thanks, I'll pass.

I think anything that can't be digested is simply passed through the system, occasionally rapidly (hence the coining of the term "disaster pants" in the keto community), even among people who still have a gallbladder. I lose my ability/willpower to eat more before it gets to that (so far).

BRUTE
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Re: Fasting Can Regenerate Your Immune System

Post by BRUTE »

IlliniDave wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:34 pm
I lose my ability/willpower to eat more before it gets to that (so far).
there's definitely a different type of satiety on a high-fat diet. not "full", just "done".

IlliniDave
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Re: Fasting Can Regenerate Your Immune System

Post by IlliniDave »

Well, I think I've finally hit the point I can say I'm fat-adapted. I don't know what it says about my immune system, and how it would divide between nutrition and fasting, but as I've observed before with distinctly limited carb nutrition, my seasonal allergy symptoms have disappeared. As far as fasting I'm doing 1 meal/day with 23 hours fasting M-F and 2 meals/day on the weekend with about 19-20 hours fasting. That's still a bit problematic for me when it comes to trying to blend it with ketogenic macro proportions. I don't count calories but I suspect I am running a pretty hefty deficit. MCT oil (100% C8) seems to be the solution (doesn't require bile to metabolize). My plan is to stick with the keto/fasting regimen through mid-August. Then once I get my blood work back and see where my weight is (I project I'll be ~177 lb, about 2 lb above my goal when I started making changes a couple weeks back) I can decide where to go from there. I have been shirking my work on the rowing machine while I've been adjusting to the new eating regimen, so my short-term next step is to remedy that.

prognastat
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Re: Fasting Can Regenerate Your Immune System

Post by prognastat »

@IlliniDave

Definitely let us know how it goes. Really interested in how it'll have affected your blood work. I've been doing keto for about half a year and intermittent fasting a little shorter(about 6 hour eating window for me), but haven't done any tests. Just been enjoying the benefits I've personally experienced.

BRUTE
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Re: Fasting Can Regenerate Your Immune System

Post by BRUTE »

IlliniDave wrote:
Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:39 am
I have been shirking my work on the rowing machine while I've been adjusting to the new eating regimen, so my short-term next step is to remedy that.
IlliniDave shouldn't be surprised if he gets winded way more quickly. after "fat adapting" to regular life, there's a whole different spectrum of adapting athletic performance. some athletes report 6-18 months for full adaptation.

prognastat
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Re: Fasting Can Regenerate Your Immune System

Post by prognastat »

@BRUTE

It's weird with resistance training. I went from not being able to do more reps because it was too painful to instead eventually the muscle feeling so drained that despite it not hurting just not being able to move the weights. It was a weird/interesting shift.

BRUTE
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Re: Fasting Can Regenerate Your Immune System

Post by BRUTE »

yea, brute had the same "drained" feeling. like an empty battery, but somehow detached.

part of the training adaptation on carbs is probably the cells' ability to sustain higher levels of power production under load. this skill is now useless, and the cells have to adapt to higher levels of power production from fat. something something mitochondria.
Last edited by BRUTE on Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

prognastat
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Re: Fasting Can Regenerate Your Immune System

Post by prognastat »

One thing that I noticed yesterday that was interesting is for the first time in months I had coffee and I downed about half a cup of coffee right before going to the gym and I did seem to have a little more energy during my workout. Trying to same today to see if it was a fluke or not.

IlliniDave
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Re: Fasting Can Regenerate Your Immune System

Post by IlliniDave »

I don't have any personal observations yet, but from what I've read any sort of workouts/competition where somewhat extended high power output is required (like a Crossfit WOD or some other HIIT things) keto is supposedly not the best way to go if peak performance is the priority since they appear optimally fueled by stores of glycogen. For endurance-focused activities supposedly keto can be advantageous because if adjusted to fat burning the athlete does not need to periodically refuel as the calories we carry around in fat are >> than what we can carry in glycogen (or for some of us like me it's >>>>> than I can be stored as glycogen). So that's sort of what I'm expecting. I don't foresee any 50 body weight power cleans for time in my near term future, and I hope that given some time, rowing is something I can adapt to (since it is a surrogate for ~long distance paddling).

prognastat
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Re: Fasting Can Regenerate Your Immune System

Post by prognastat »

You could potentially concentrate as many of your carb allotment for the day for right before/during the workout to potentially get slightly more out of the carbs for your workout. It would mean an even more regulated diet though which for one doing intermittent fasting and keto is already pretty regulated.

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jennypenny
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Re: Fasting Can Regenerate Your Immune System

Post by jennypenny »

Here's a video* from two doctors who tested different versions of coffee to see if having the coffee broke their fast. They concluded that having coffee in the morning, either black or with cream, butter, or MCT oil, will not raise glucose or lower ketones.

The MCT oil had a surprising positive effect on glucose. Does anyone use it? If so, how?


*Note: There is loud music for part of the video, and they are a little awkward in front of the camera. Still, I like their videos because they test their recommendations scientifically.

IlliniDave
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Re: Fasting Can Regenerate Your Immune System

Post by IlliniDave »

jennypenny wrote:
Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:04 am
The MCT oil had a surprising positive effect on glucose. Does anyone use it? If so, how?
I'm doing keto without as gallbladder and one of my hacks is C8 MCT oil (caprylic acid). The reason is straightforward: metabolizing it does not require bile. It allegedly passes directly into the blood and straight to the liver where it is turned into ketones (at least in the backdrop of low carb nutrition, not sure what happens in a high insulin/blood glucose environment), so if anything it would probably raise blood ketones, but I suspect it might lower lipolysis somewhat during the time it is present.

I tried it a few times with coffee and the effect was to make one cup of coffee feel like 5 Cafe Americanas, which was a bit much for me. So now I just occasionally use a generous dash as an addition to food (similar to what folks might do with olive oil). The brand I have is tasteless so I often use a little olive or avocado oil too. I've read conflicting things regarding its suitability for cooking so I don't cook with it. M-F I eat one meal per day, which could be looked at as daily 22-23 hr fasting. Weekends I usually eat two small meals in a six hour window. I haven't noticed any particular interactions with fasting.

In general what I've read is that MCT oil is believed to help keep the fat-burning pathways operational, or to help restart them quicker if they've been shut off by insulin. But as I said above, for me it is a hack to help with keto/intermittent fasting to get some extra fat calories that don't tax my handicapped digestive system.

A caveat I'll add (discussed in my journal recently) is that my recent blood work showed triglycerides had soared since my last lab work (it had been a couple years). MCT oil is straight triglycerides, and C8 has very short digestive lag. I dialed down the MCT oil for a few days before the test but didn't eliminate it completely. I doubt a tablespoon or so with a salad 12 hours before having blood drawn affected the results, but there it is.

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jennypenny
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Re: Fasting Can Regenerate Your Immune System

Post by jennypenny »

@ID--Any particular kind you use? I have to pick up fish oil today so I think I'm going to grab some while I'm there. I don't have cholesterol issues so I'm not worried about that part. I have horrible chronic anemia, so I'm more interested in how it affects glucose levels.

IlliniDave
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Re: Fasting Can Regenerate Your Immune System

Post by IlliniDave »

Well, it's still a fairly new thing and I'm still on my first bottle. I think the brand I bought is "Clean MCT". What I'm particular about is that it is 100% C8 caprylic acid, not what the brand is. It's not cheap. I think "normal" MCT has a blend of C8, C10, and C12 and is cheaper because it takes less effort to get from coconut oil (or palm). Mine is also liquid, but many people like powdered form for convenience.

I never check my glucose so haven't really looked into any of that directly. I've read theories about MCT (especially C8) helping with glucose regulation because they can get converted to ketones in the presence of insulin and actually cause a boost in insulin.

Hope it works for you.

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jennypenny
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Re: Fasting Can Regenerate Your Immune System

Post by jennypenny »

I found someone very helpful at my local shop and she helped me find the right kind of MCT. I want to add it to my afternoon smoothie when I have my fish oil, B supplements, and liquid multi. I wonder if this would react with that? We'll see, I guess.

Thanks for the help.

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