Early Retirement Extreme Forums

jacob wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:57 pm

Oh, I almost forgot about the fruit.

As per Longo, I've largely cut out fruit as well even if it goes against all the standard advice.

Same here. The standard advice hasn't done a very good job up to this point.

The fruit thing is going to kill me, even more than giving up cheese. It also rubs me the wrong way resilience-wise because it's so easy to plant, it's hardy, and it produces for years. My yard is overflowing with blueberries, blackberries, raspberries, strawberries, apples, pears, peaches, and cherries right now. *sigh*

Fruit is bad?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Humans evolved eating fruits for like, millions of years. If there's a food that we are totally adapted to eat, it's fruits.

Full of vitamins, minerals, antioxidants, phytonutrients (thousands identified so far, possibly many more still to be identified).

Rich in fiber, which something like 95% of people don't get enough of.

What would possibly be an argument NOT to eat them? And how about decades of research stating otherwise?

Why don't you read the book or watch some of the linked videos in upthread? It's hard to explain the pieces out of context.

I watch my carbs so I don't eat much fruit but I do eat some. I guess I can still use the berries as a garnish on salads.

Bankai wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:57 pm

You do realise that historically fruits were far from the sugar bombs they are these days right? They have been selectively bred over time to have more sugars and less fibers. The vegetables I eat are a better source for fiber without the sugar.

This shows just how much some of our staples have changed just in appearance:
https://www.sciencealert.com/fruits-veg ... estication

Bankai wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:57 pm

Humans evolved eating fruits for like, millions of years. If there's a food that we are totally adapted to eat, it's fruits.

same is true for saturated animal fats.

jacob wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:38 am

In the Warrior Diet Hofmekler suggests adding cream to carry you through. [..] It's certainly easier to go without food using caffeine because it stabilizes blood sugar levels.

coffee with cream and MCT oil is absurdly effective at this. the MCT oil really adds another level of appetite suppression. last time brute fasted for ~10 days, he tried consuming a few cups of bulletproof coffee this way. it completely turned off cravings that would usually happen after ~3 days of fasting, and the fatty acids in the bulletproof coffee don't really account for it. (also, as an A/B test, brute has done the same minus the MCT oil, and it definitely wasn't as effective).

if the body is adapted to burning fats, MCT oil gets turned into ketones by the liver, which are then able to provide the brain with energy. most cravings are caused by the brain lacking energy, so even a tiny amount of MCT can quench those cravings. it worked almost too well.

by the way, Fung is a bit of a quack. the claims he makes about fasting are way to generalized. for example, he says things like "Fasting is not dangerous", or "fasting reduces hunger", without qualifying "at body fat levels above 20% or so". even when called out by the more serious fasting experts, he refuses to qualify statements.

I am pleased to see this confirmation of coffee + heavy cream as being the superior coffee.

I think if one were to eat fruit strictly in season the way our ancestors that did the evolving had to, it could probably be worked into most successful long-term diets once someone is maintaining a body weight. It's probably best for a lot of people to forgo fruit when trying to lose significant weight.

Today is day 1 for me on a more ketogenic-based approach. I unknowingly was following a warrior scheme as far as eating only a single meal most days, which I'll stick with unless I go with bullet-proof coffee for a while to smooth the transition. I've decided to give it at least a month as an experiment. I am not confident I can force myself to eat the required amount of fat on a consistent basis while keeping the right protein limits though, without resorting to doing shots of olive oil or the equivalent. I like avocados, but not enough to eat seven of them every day.

I have been doing IF again, and dropped 6 lbs. almost entirely off of my abdomen. I am taking a break, because my usually cast-iron digestive system was starting to revolt against this practice. However, I must agree that if your goal is to look okay-if-you-squint-your-eyes in a bathing suit as quickly and painlessly as possible, IF is probably the best method.

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@classical_Liberal:

My left to my own decadent devices diet tends to be very high in dairy fat as well as carbs/caffeine. Maybe roughly the equivalent of eating a piece of strawberry cheesecake and a bowl of arugula pasta squid salad and a large mug of coffee for most meals. I had to eat an entire large container of full fat Greek yogurt with honey in order to get my tummy back to something resembling happy normal functioning.

This might have to do with age/gender/hormones/ethnicity, but post this round of IF, my figure is more bottom-heavy than ever previously in my 40 years of suburban white girl obsession with such matters. No matter how heavy/light I am, my waist is usually 11 inches smaller than my butt, but right now the difference is almost 14 inches, with the bigger number at all time high. My positive take is that I now have enough estrogen stores to keep me safe from heart attack until late 80s

@jacob

I understand principles of IF

I was more interested in following problem:
If we cut pasta and rice and their common alternatives there aren't many vegetables with high caloric density. Increase is possible with beans, peas and so on.

Maybe Dr Longo has special division of 'right' veggies, I'll check this.

@Stahlmann - One of the longevity goals in the book is also to end up with IIRC a BMI of about 21-22 which is the ~optimal number for longevity. That's a lot less metabolic weight to maintain relative to the average American or European figure these days. There are very few nations around the world where people still has a diet and shape in concord with human [genetic] specifications.

https://www.indexmundi.com/blog/index.p ... y-country/

The body shape will follow the diet. So the answer is that you should be eating fewer calories than you think/worry you should. Tons of rice and potatoes would be required if you're out doing heavy manual labor digging with a shovel all day ... but how many do that anymore?

The warrior diet had the same observation. If you're an athlete on a heavy training schedule, you can have oatmeal in the morning. This is not a problem because you're going to be burning it off immediately working out over the next few hours during your morning training sessions. Conversely, people sitting on their ass all day don't need/want all that carb fuel. Having unused carbs floating around in the bloodstream over time is what causes weight gain and metabolic issues.

jacob wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:02 pm

@Stahlmann - One of the longevity goals in the book is also to end up with IIRC a BMI of about 21-22 which is the ~optimal number for longevity.

Interesting. I am in fair shape at 6'0 , 178 pounds (and I feel very very skinny at 169-170lbs) but would have to drop to about 155-160 pounds to get into that BMI range. That is a good 18 to 23 pounds of fat or 63,000 to 80,500 calories for me to lose.

https://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/educat ... ssolutions

@jacob:

Yes, but as the author of "100 Million Years of Food" pointed out, the diet most consistent with longevity in humans has little bearing on the "natural", due to the fact that reproduction takes place at much younger age. There is a trade-off between "best for longevity" and "best for maximizing sexual reproduction." So, any thoughtful individual will have to strike their own happy balance between these two "bests." Of course, a good deal of this trade-off is reflective of dietary decisions made for the individual prior to reaching stage of development where own choice can be made.

7Wannabe5 wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:42 am

My left to my own decadent devices diet tends to be very high in dairy fat as well as carbs/caffeine. Maybe roughly the equivalent of eating a piece of strawberry cheesecake and a bowl of arugula pasta squid salad and a large mug of coffee for most meals. I had to eat an entire large container of full fat Greek yogurt with honey in order to get my tummy back to something resembling happy normal functioning.

even the bit of cream in 7Wannabe5's coffee and "full fat" greek yoghurt is basically no fat at all. it's very easy to overdo the fiber:fat ratio.

Stahlmann wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:27 pm

If we cut pasta and rice and their common alternatives there aren't many vegetables with high caloric density. Increase is possible with beans, peas and so on.

brute is unfamiliar with Longo's work, but there are plenty vegan high fat, high calorie foods. coconut, coconut oil, avocado, nuts, dark chocolate. just adding a bunch of coconut oil to most dishes makes them more delicious and higher in fat content.

dipping dark chocolate (the darker, the more fat, the more calories) in coconut oil is also delicious.

BRUTE wrote:even the bit of cream in 7Wannabe5's coffee and "full fat" greek yoghurt is basically no fat at all. it's very easy to overdo the fiber:fat ratio.
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I tried having a bacon cheese butter burger with onion rings for my meal before I tried the yogurt, but that didn't work. I think maybe the problem was that I was drinking my approximately 18 cups of coffee prior to my meal black, and also drinking a good deal of water, because working in heat and humidity. I haven't had this problem other times I have fasted.

I would also note that I am still losing weight after switching over to several small meals of whatever I like, but low caloric total. I am one of those, perhaps rare, individuals for whom calories in/calories out works pretty much like clockwork. However, it is true that starting out with a bit of ketosis/fasting is very helpful in breaking me out of my tendency towards very high sugar intake.