I think I wrote this thread to share some of my apprehension and thoughts. It'd be interesting to hear whatever thoughts you think are relevant with my brief descriptions below.
I am currently in a slightly apprehensive/learning mood since I'm discovering the limits of my empathy. I have enjoyed a relationship with my open partner for the past year, and the chronic, severe, long-term depression/anxiety she experiences is allowing me to discover the limits of my empathy.
Unfortunately, I am beginning to feel that the relationship is not sustainable. Although this is only part of the relationship, I don't think I would feel as healthy continuing to listen actively, practicing NVC, or being there for much longer, like another year. I can avoid feeling depressed/anxious myself from the depression/anxiety she experiences by realizing that it's out of my control and that it is in my nature to aid when and in whatever way I can, but I think there is only so much I can do, and, while it might read callously, perhaps my time might be more joyously spent with a partner who is not chronically, severely, and long-term depressed/anxious. I often support depressed/suicidal/anxious students via the Student Support Network, but usually these are inconsistent interactions; I think the consistency of providing empathy a few times a week to daily for the past year is wearing me out.
I am further nervous to see her this Monday when she visits for one and a half months, since I am apprehensive that I will no longer be as physically attracted to her as when we last saw one another in February; this again relates to the depression/anxiety since one of the anti-depression medications has caused her to gain weight. From the pertinent weight gain thread, I have affirmed that long-term physical attraction is required for me to be in a relationship.
I suppose I could bounce ideas with someone at the counseling center to help me process the finiteness of my empathy, or perhaps the current unsustainability of the relationship.
------------------------------------------
Some other observations: I'm curious if providing empathy consistently might have taken a toll in my academics as well. Maybe being more emotionally drained than otherwise tends to influence me to perform less fully in school?
Also, many of my previous partners or casual relationships experience depression, anxiety, eating disorders, insomnia, or another condition. I wonder if these conditions are simply common, or if I just tend to attract people who experience these conditions, or at least are comfortable sharing them with me, because of my training and natural tendency to provide empathy and listen fully...
Is empathy finite with chronic, severe, long-term depression/anxiety?
Is empathy finite with chronic, severe, long-term depression/anxiety?
Last edited by TopHatFox on Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Is empathy finite with chronic, severe, long-term depression/anxiety?
Not to be pedantic but just so I understand clearly:
Do you mean sympathy when you say empathy?
You cannot 'provide' empathy, empathy is when you intuitively feel the same way as someone else.
It's not empathy unless you yourself are or were at some point in time "chronic, severe, long-term, clinically depressed or anxious."
Do you mean sympathy when you say empathy?
You cannot 'provide' empathy, empathy is when you intuitively feel the same way as someone else.
It's not empathy unless you yourself are or were at some point in time "chronic, severe, long-term, clinically depressed or anxious."
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Spartan_Warrior
- Posts: 1659
- Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:24 am
Re: Is empathy finite with chronic, severe, long-term depression/anxiety?
I sorta lurked through the physical attraction thread and I must say that I feel like I'm watching an inevitable break-up in slow motion. Is this the first time you broke up with someone? Just curious. Anyway, to respond to a few of your points in no particular order:
1. These conditions ARE incredibly common in the U.S. I think something like 50% of the adult populace is on antidepressants now? (Can't be arsed to look it up, go read Happiness Inc.) I don't think that means you should have to settle if you find these traits unbearable. However...
2. ...It sort of sucks from my perspective if the rest of the relationship is good, because depression/anxiety are treatable and not all drugs cause the weight gain side effect.
3. That said, I think if the rest of the relationship were excellent--dare I say it, if you were in love--you would be able to overcome these problems without much difficulty. Which is why I suspect these are "straw that breaks the camel's back" issues rather than the only thing that's going on, or the only thing that has you questioning the relationship.
4. You're young. This is already an "open" relationship. It's not the end of the world to break up with her and date someone more compatible with you. (Or depending on the openness of the relationship, just discuss having sex with someone else/bringing someone else into the bedroom/etc...?)
5. If you ARE going to break up with her, or otherwise make the experience of her 1.5 month visit terrible for her, you better do the breaking up before she visits! Save you both the awkwardness and wasted time/money.
Just my $.02.
1. These conditions ARE incredibly common in the U.S. I think something like 50% of the adult populace is on antidepressants now? (Can't be arsed to look it up, go read Happiness Inc.) I don't think that means you should have to settle if you find these traits unbearable. However...
2. ...It sort of sucks from my perspective if the rest of the relationship is good, because depression/anxiety are treatable and not all drugs cause the weight gain side effect.
3. That said, I think if the rest of the relationship were excellent--dare I say it, if you were in love--you would be able to overcome these problems without much difficulty. Which is why I suspect these are "straw that breaks the camel's back" issues rather than the only thing that's going on, or the only thing that has you questioning the relationship.
4. You're young. This is already an "open" relationship. It's not the end of the world to break up with her and date someone more compatible with you. (Or depending on the openness of the relationship, just discuss having sex with someone else/bringing someone else into the bedroom/etc...?)
5. If you ARE going to break up with her, or otherwise make the experience of her 1.5 month visit terrible for her, you better do the breaking up before she visits! Save you both the awkwardness and wasted time/money.
Just my $.02.
Re: Is empathy finite with chronic, severe, long-term depression/anxiety?
Having a DSM-5 diagnosis is quite common in the tribe of affluent with IQ over 120. However, it is also important to recognize that the dysfunctional rescuer/rescued dynamic in romance may also be coming into play here. Pay attention to your own tendency to "need to be needed" vs. "want to be wanted." It can hide behind all sorts of seemingly positive self-evaluations such as "I am highly empathetic.", "I have a big heart.", "I am very open-minded.", "I am cheerful and easy-going.", "I like a challenge.", "I'm a soldier. I can carry this weight.", "I am loyal." etc. etc. You are kidding yourself on two levels when you aren't self-aware about this sort of dynamic. The second level being what you are getting out of the relationship. No such thing as a free lunch is a symmetrical analogy. To put the matter in simple, blunt terms, you will be better off long-run if you are able to acknowledge that you were likely accepting "needy" when it came packaged with "hawt" but now you find yourself less willing, for reasons having to do with simple self-interest, to pay P.O.P. with the energy demanding practice of attentive listening.
I am not judging. On more than one occasion, I have intermittently smiled or made a sad face for an hour or so, while a man related to me the story of his recent divorce simply because I wanted a free meal at my favorite Thai restaurant.
I am not judging. On more than one occasion, I have intermittently smiled or made a sad face for an hour or so, while a man related to me the story of his recent divorce simply because I wanted a free meal at my favorite Thai restaurant.
Re: Is empathy finite with chronic, severe, long-term depression/anxiety?
Sorry to interject here with something completely OT, but I need a response to my pm to you, Zalo, about the book club. It's your turn and I think your selection will be very popular. Please check your private messages. Thanks.
Re: Is empathy finite with chronic, severe, long-term depression/anxiety?
Paul Bloom wrote an interesting opinion piece in the Times today about empathy.
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/20 ... share&_r=0
The philosopher Laurie Paul, in her book “Transformative Experience,” argues that it’s impossible to actually imagine what it would be like to have certain deeply significant experiences, such as becoming a parent, changing your religion or fighting a war. The same lack of access applies to our understanding of others. If I can’t know what it would be like for me to fight in a war, how can I expect to understand what it was like for someone else to have fought in a war? If I can’t understand what it would be like to become poor, how can I know what it’s like for someone else to be poor?
and
Instead of assuming that we can know what it is like to be them, we should focus more on listening to what they have to say. This isn’t perfect — people sometimes lie, or are confused, or deluded — but it’s by far the best method of figuring out the needs, desires and histories of people who are different from us. It also shows more respect than a clumsy attempt to get into their skins; I agree with the essayist Leslie Jamison, who describes empathy as “perched precariously between gift and invasion.”
and
Scholars ranging from Adam Smith to the contemporary literary critic Elaine Scarry have pointed out that when we try to act morally toward strangers based on empathic projection, we typically fail.
He says that people who are instructed to empathize with others actually do worse at it than those who don't try at all.
She is depressed. Rather that following her down that rabbit hole, you might stop trying to empathize.
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/20 ... share&_r=0
The philosopher Laurie Paul, in her book “Transformative Experience,” argues that it’s impossible to actually imagine what it would be like to have certain deeply significant experiences, such as becoming a parent, changing your religion or fighting a war. The same lack of access applies to our understanding of others. If I can’t know what it would be like for me to fight in a war, how can I expect to understand what it was like for someone else to have fought in a war? If I can’t understand what it would be like to become poor, how can I know what it’s like for someone else to be poor?
and
Instead of assuming that we can know what it is like to be them, we should focus more on listening to what they have to say. This isn’t perfect — people sometimes lie, or are confused, or deluded — but it’s by far the best method of figuring out the needs, desires and histories of people who are different from us. It also shows more respect than a clumsy attempt to get into their skins; I agree with the essayist Leslie Jamison, who describes empathy as “perched precariously between gift and invasion.”
and
Scholars ranging from Adam Smith to the contemporary literary critic Elaine Scarry have pointed out that when we try to act morally toward strangers based on empathic projection, we typically fail.
He says that people who are instructed to empathize with others actually do worse at it than those who don't try at all.
She is depressed. Rather that following her down that rabbit hole, you might stop trying to empathize.
Re: Is empathy finite with chronic, severe, long-term depression/anxiety?
When I say empathy, I am referring to NVC's version: identifying the feelings and needs of a person via active listening, which means in part asking what, how, why questions and really trying to understand the person & their situation.fiby41 wrote:Not to be pedantic but just so I understand clearly:
Do you mean sympathy when you say empathy?
You cannot 'provide' empathy, empathy is when you intuitively feel the same way as someone else.
It's not empathy unless you yourself are or were at some point in time "chronic, severe, long-term, clinically depressed or anxious."
But yes, in the typical comparison of sympathy v. empathy, when I write empathy I mean sympathy.
Last edited by TopHatFox on Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Is empathy finite with chronic, severe, long-term depression/anxiety?
NopeSpartan_Warrior wrote:I Is this the first time you broke up with someone?
Good to know. I think I will try my best to form deep relationships with people who tend to experience less depression/anxiety than otherwise. I don't find these traits unbearable--again, many of the people that provide the most insight and intellectual growth in my life often experience some mental condition, whether addiction, depression, eating disorder, etc.--but I think I'd like to surround myself with people who tend to experience joy more than negative emotions. It is unfortunate that many people do not have the choice, I suppose. I'd like to read Happiness, Inc. I'll put it on my reading list; thank you for the suggestion.Spartan_Warrior wrote: 1. These conditions ARE incredibly common in the U.S. I think something like 50% of the adult populace is on antidepressants now? (Can't be arsed to look it up, go read Happiness Inc.) I don't think that means you should have to settle if you find these traits unbearable. However...
The relationship is loving, affectionate, intellectually stimulating, and offers a lot of value in my life. We further have many values aligned, like environmental consciousness, simple living, financial independence, an open relationship, no kids, etc--the depression anxiety is only one side of our relationship, though it is as I've written one that is often present. I'd like to learn more about my sub-conscious and possibly conscious prejudices against depression/anxiety, I think that's in part why I posted yesterday.Spartan_Warrior wrote: 2. ...It sort of sucks from my perspective if the rest of the relationship is good, because depression/anxiety are treatable and not all drugs cause the weight gain side effect.
We genuinely love one another, and I am finding that with enough thought and time I can overcome the depression anxiety/weight gain. To be honest, I tend to write on here about the relationship when I'm feeling at my worst and seek out help. I'm currently failing to listen to Harry Browne's Emotional Trap in the relationship category. Anyway, these two factors are the only things that have me questioning the relationship, which is why I'm trying to understand them more.Spartan_Warrior wrote: 3. That said, I think if the rest of the relationship were excellent--dare I say it, if you were in love--you would be able to overcome these problems without much difficulty. Which is why I suspect these are "straw that breaks the camel's back" issues rather than the only thing that's going on, or the only thing that has you questioning the relationship.
When I read the quotations placed around "open", I felt uncomfortable, because I have a need for unassuming understanding, and the quotations and the word "already" imply that open relationships tend to lack commitment--which is not the case here or in many of my friend's open/polyamorous relationships. My relationship is definitely an open relationship; my partner and I each see and have sex with other people--and openly talk about it--but only my partner and I have the strong emotional connection as of now. We're open to having strong emotional connections with others if that comes about--and that's more rare than a casual physical connection--but we'd still need a strong emotional & physical connection to maintain our own relationship concurrently.Spartan_Warrior wrote: 4. You're young. This is already an "open" relationship. It's not the end of the world to break up with her and date someone more compatible with you. (Or depending on the openness of the relationship, just discuss having sex with someone else/bringing someone else into the bedroom/etc...?)
That's a good point, and I'll keep it in mind if my mind changes. I do not want to break up with her, more sharing what I am currently feeling so I can understand myself better, and my relationship with her more consciously. I think I am simply nervous of the physical change, and exploring my concern with continuing to develop a deep and long connection with someone who experiences depression/anxiety.Spartan_Warrior wrote: 5. If you ARE going to break up with her, or otherwise make the experience of her 1.5 month visit terrible for her, you better do the breaking up before she visits! Save you both the awkwardness and wasted time/money.
Last edited by TopHatFox on Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Is empathy finite with chronic, severe, long-term depression/anxiety?
I was actually thinking about this the other day. Yeah, the rescuer v. rescued idea is NOT okay. The way I tend to behave, I try my best to listen to people of all kinds and with all kinds of stories, and if they share their vulnerable states of my mind with me, I tend to continue to listen and ask questions, and understand them there, too. I don't actively seek people with depression/anxiety you know...7Wannabe5 wrote: It is also important to recognize that the dysfunctional rescuer/rescued dynamic in romance may also be coming into play here. Pay attention to your own tendency to "need to be needed" vs. "want to be wanted." It can hide behind all sorts of seemingly positive self-evaluations such as "I am highly empathetic.", "I have a big heart.", "I am very open-minded.", "I am cheerful and easy-going.", "I like a challenge.", "I'm a soldier. I can carry this weight.", "I am loyal." etc. etc. You are kidding yourself on two levels when you aren't self-aware about this sort of dynamic. The second level being what you are getting out of the relationship. No such thing as a free lunch is a symmetrical analogy.
Hm, I think it was easier for me to listen when I was also more physically attracted to the person I was listening to, but I don't think that means that my partner and I don't share an extraordinary amount of value putting aside her physical appearance and depression/anxiety. I'll keep in mind this factor when talking to people in general. I think many humans, myself included, are guilty of paying more attention to the people they are more attracted to, but it's likely something that I can reduce with conscious effort.7Wannabe5 wrote: To put the matter in simple, blunt terms, you will be better off long-run if you are able to acknowledge that you were likely accepting "needy" when it came packaged with "hawt" but now you find yourself less willing, for reasons having to do with simple self-interest, to pay P.O.P. with the energy demanding practice of attentive listening.
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Spartan_Warrior
- Posts: 1659
- Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:24 am
Re: Is empathy finite with chronic, severe, long-term depression/anxiety?
Sorry to make you uncomfortable. Truthfully, I don't understand open relationships, and the term often seems to mean different things to different people, so I was just quoting your usage*. But I didn't mean any disrespect.
*Also, I've noticed I have a really bad habit of overusing quotation marks... mainly on this forum. I don't know why. It grates me. LOL.
What I meant was, depending on the openness, if you're getting some of your needs (emotional, intellectual, etc) from your current partner maybe you'd both be open to satisfying other needs (e.g. physical) with others? But I can understand you want the physical connection with your partner as well. I have to admit, I didn't follow the other thread to its conclusion, so I'm probably retreading ground and/or diluting the purpose of this thread.
I'll just say that if you don't want to break up with her, I think that answers most of your questions. But it's going to take work.
To bring it back on topic, personally, my sympathy is usually limited by a person's willingness to change/fix the problem. Does she understand this stuff is a problem for you? Is she willing to try different things--different drugs, more exercise, other solutions?
Also, are you her sole shoulder to cry on? It's a little much to ask for in a relationship. If she needs that level of support, everyone involved would be better off if she sought a professional to talk out problems with rather than burdening you with everything. Practically speaking, this would also provide you with an easy out if a conversation gets too heavy for you: "That's interesting, honey. Have you talked about that with your therapist? What does he/she think?" Et cetera.
*Also, I've noticed I have a really bad habit of overusing quotation marks... mainly on this forum. I don't know why. It grates me. LOL.
What I meant was, depending on the openness, if you're getting some of your needs (emotional, intellectual, etc) from your current partner maybe you'd both be open to satisfying other needs (e.g. physical) with others? But I can understand you want the physical connection with your partner as well. I have to admit, I didn't follow the other thread to its conclusion, so I'm probably retreading ground and/or diluting the purpose of this thread.
I'll just say that if you don't want to break up with her, I think that answers most of your questions. But it's going to take work.
To bring it back on topic, personally, my sympathy is usually limited by a person's willingness to change/fix the problem. Does she understand this stuff is a problem for you? Is she willing to try different things--different drugs, more exercise, other solutions?
Also, are you her sole shoulder to cry on? It's a little much to ask for in a relationship. If she needs that level of support, everyone involved would be better off if she sought a professional to talk out problems with rather than burdening you with everything. Practically speaking, this would also provide you with an easy out if a conversation gets too heavy for you: "That's interesting, honey. Have you talked about that with your therapist? What does he/she think?" Et cetera.
Re: Is empathy finite with chronic, severe, long-term depression/anxiety?
Hehehe...Spartan_Warrior wrote:To bring it back on topic, personally, my sympathy is usually limited by a person's willingness to change/fix the problem.
"She will beg you for advice.
Your reply will be concise.
She will listen very nicely,
then go out and do precisely
what she wants!"
I'm An Ordinary Man
+1. Yes. Having been depressed myself, this is absolutely the right answer. Depressed people don't know that they're coming off as emotional vampires. And women, especially, tend to talk about their problems as a way of dealing with them. Which can frustrate the hell out of guys, who are usually "fix it" oriented (see Mr. Higgins aboveSpartan_Warrior wrote:Also, are you her sole shoulder to cry on? It's a little much to ask for in a relationship. If she needs that level of support, everyone involved would be better off if she sought a professional to talk out problems with rather than burdening you with everything.
). To convey that you care, Zalo, but that this is too much for you to deal with yourself much less help her with, encourage therapy every chance you get. Do not let her accidentally run you into the ground. You will both need for you to stay emotionally healthy.Also encourage her to talk to her girlfriends, mom, sisters, etc., if she has some she can open up to. Women listening to other women tend to give the kind of feedback that women expect. That will take some pressure off you, too.
Re: Is empathy finite with chronic, severe, long-term depression/anxiety?
Hi Zalo, you asked "I wonder... if I just tend to attract people who experience these conditions, or at least are comfortable sharing them with me, because of my training and natural tendency to provide empathy and listen fully..."
Yes, you do attract them, likely with open body language and facial expression. And further, you allow a relationship to continue.
As a life-long depressive, I can tell you, MOST people will terminate a relationship or friendship once a whiff of dysfunction, depression, etc. is revealed in the course of spending time together.
I also attract the crazies (I say that with love since I'm one myself) with my active listening, my nonjudgmental stance, murmurs of sympathy, seeing the good in people, being curious about different sorts of folks, etc.
Sometimes it works out. My DH was a 27 years sober depressive with anger issues. He had been homeless for 4 years before he started living with me. These qualities alone were enough to push him out of most normal relational exchanges. There was a heart of gold underneath all the quirks though and I'm glad I got to know him when other people didn't take the time.
Okay I'm going on a little tangent here, but I have wondered if there is a part of depression that is the result of stifled individuality. Being too different, especially combined with not being so wildly talented that one's differences become background quirks, can be fairly painful. Especially at younger ages, when non-comformity can be very isolating.
But back to your questions Zalo. Active listening is energy intensive (why most people don't bother) and yes, it is likely being a bit of a drain on you. I would suggest that to the best of your ability, you and your partner spend as much of your time together as possible doing things that reflect your values and interests and are very active, preferably with other people. Talk time would be best used for active planning, not as much for theoretical discussions or inner life discussions. Or at least revise the percentages, less on the sharing, more on the doing.
Praise her for her competencies and strengths, put as much energy into seeing her good. And set a time limit for empathetic listening sessions, especially if she begins repeating, looping, ruminating, etc.
Yes, you do attract them, likely with open body language and facial expression. And further, you allow a relationship to continue.
As a life-long depressive, I can tell you, MOST people will terminate a relationship or friendship once a whiff of dysfunction, depression, etc. is revealed in the course of spending time together.
I also attract the crazies (I say that with love since I'm one myself) with my active listening, my nonjudgmental stance, murmurs of sympathy, seeing the good in people, being curious about different sorts of folks, etc.
Sometimes it works out. My DH was a 27 years sober depressive with anger issues. He had been homeless for 4 years before he started living with me. These qualities alone were enough to push him out of most normal relational exchanges. There was a heart of gold underneath all the quirks though and I'm glad I got to know him when other people didn't take the time.
Okay I'm going on a little tangent here, but I have wondered if there is a part of depression that is the result of stifled individuality. Being too different, especially combined with not being so wildly talented that one's differences become background quirks, can be fairly painful. Especially at younger ages, when non-comformity can be very isolating.
But back to your questions Zalo. Active listening is energy intensive (why most people don't bother) and yes, it is likely being a bit of a drain on you. I would suggest that to the best of your ability, you and your partner spend as much of your time together as possible doing things that reflect your values and interests and are very active, preferably with other people. Talk time would be best used for active planning, not as much for theoretical discussions or inner life discussions. Or at least revise the percentages, less on the sharing, more on the doing.
Praise her for her competencies and strengths, put as much energy into seeing her good. And set a time limit for empathetic listening sessions, especially if she begins repeating, looping, ruminating, etc.
Re: Is empathy finite with chronic, severe, long-term depression/anxiety?
As an aside (I'm two for two here), this is the most useful thing I have found explaining the difference between empathy and sympathy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Evwgu369Jw
Note that the word "empathy", in English, has only been around since 1909!
See http://www.branchcollective.org/?ps_art ... to-english
The meanings of these words has changed over time, as sympathy used to encompass empathy. Yet if you read something like Adam Smith's most important work, "The Theory of Moral Sentiments", it is essentially talking about the modern concept of empathy (i.e., actually feeling what the other person feels, albeit on a smaller scale):
http://philosophyofsocialcognition.pbwo ... 20sympathy
On the other hand, modern "sympathy" is more of an intellectual cognition than an emotional one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Evwgu369Jw
Note that the word "empathy", in English, has only been around since 1909!
See http://www.branchcollective.org/?ps_art ... to-english
The meanings of these words has changed over time, as sympathy used to encompass empathy. Yet if you read something like Adam Smith's most important work, "The Theory of Moral Sentiments", it is essentially talking about the modern concept of empathy (i.e., actually feeling what the other person feels, albeit on a smaller scale):
http://philosophyofsocialcognition.pbwo ... 20sympathy
On the other hand, modern "sympathy" is more of an intellectual cognition than an emotional one.
Re: Is empathy finite with chronic, severe, long-term depression/anxiety?
I think you are over analyzing. Enjoy the summer, see what happens.
The anxiety / depression isn't your fault, and it does not have to be an emotional drain. The feelings are outside of your control and do not reflect on you as a person. I've found respecting that they are real, acknowledging how the other person feels is hard, then declining to engage in the spirals, effective.
The anxiety / depression isn't your fault, and it does not have to be an emotional drain. The feelings are outside of your control and do not reflect on you as a person. I've found respecting that they are real, acknowledging how the other person feels is hard, then declining to engage in the spirals, effective.