COVID-19: Unwinding the Lockdown and Long Term Epidemic

[Jason]

Young people certainly do not riot every time they think it would be fun and they do not necessarily riot in response to objective ill-treatment that disproportionately affects them personally either (e.g. non-dischargeable college debt).

Throughout history, young people were "employed" by the power structures to carry out physical destruction when they as a demographic had no skin in the game. Iconoclastic movements throughout church history brought in young people who had no understanding of the religious/political issues that were being disputed upon the promise that they could destroy the representative relics without repercussions. Why? Because young people like to break shit up.

[llorona]

I am convinced that white people need to start talking about race to non-white people. And not superficially. Historically, it hasn’t happened because white folks collectively are “uncomfortable “ with it. Now is the time.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/14833837 ... eva_mobile

What do you mean exactly?

[Mister Imperceptible]

Making Sense of the Downward Spiral, Daniel Schmachtenberger

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GWk-ZpJdRFg

Discussed:
-Resisting group think
-Avoid being a pawn
-Acting strategically
-Harnessing emotion

[7Wannabe5]

Robert Kegan wrote a very good bit about getting past “ defensiveness” when dealing with race and similar issues in educational setting. Very roughly; when you support young people with minority experience in creating their own strong ideology, you are actually helping to support their transition into the mindset of modernity through self-authoring, and this is where they will best be able to forge their own success. IOW, not “copy my lifestyle”, but rather “let me help you learn how to create and take responsibility for your own unique lifestyle as an individual.”

[llorona]

@jp

"I’m having a hard time condemning the rioters."

Not me. Anybody that steals and loots, damages property, burns cars or buildings, or assaults or kills somebody else because they are upset has no sympathy from me. Lock them up and prosecute to the fullest extent of the law. If one wants the mob to rule then this is how you set the precedent, by not stopping this criminal behavior. I would support anybody protesting peacefully for however long they feel necessary, as most people, but when they watch innocent people curb-stomped then all sympathy evaporates.

The most significant casualty of this whole sad affair is that when this all happened and everybody watched that video, everyone was on the victims side and ready to act. That goodwill has been squandered to emotional outbursts and lawlessness, and good luck to the black community now getting any meaningful change. A cynic would say that change wouldn't have happened anyway, but that video galvanized everyone and I don't know of anyone that excused or took the side of the cops. Now, a lot of people don't care anymore that were completely on their side when this murder occurred. If you take the emotion out of it (if possible) then you'll see what a missed opportunity this has become.

@FFJ. I agree with you and I don't.

I'm coming at this from what might be considered a diverse perspective on this forum. I am a woman of color living in Oakland, a city that has previously experienced race riots, such as when Oscar Grant was shot at the Fruitvale BART station in 2009. For 25 years, I've worked with social services organizations that serve low-income populations, including brown and black kids living in deep East Oakland - a place where many people are scared to go. I live on the border of a neighborhood plagued by disinvestment -- for miles around, even right in the middle of the city, there are no mainstream banks, grocery stores, etc.

From a mainstream American standpoint, I can see how looting, stealing, burning buildings, etc. looks crazy. Growing up in a conservative, Catholic military family, I understand the "you break the rules, you pay the consequences" way of thinking. Essentially, the expectation is that people will behave and play according to the rules. It presumes that the world is a fair place for everyone.

Problem is, this outlook forgets that the rules of social order are different for people of color, especially Black people, including their interactions and attitudes toward the police (i.e., defenders/protectors vs. murderers). If any of us were raised in areas of disinvestment like the ones I've seen and live on the edge of, we, too, might lose hope in because institutions have repeatedly failed us again and again. If society repeatedly sent messages devaluing our worth, we might internalize them and eventually lash out.

(Events like what happened in Oakland yesterday just add fuel to the fire. Twenty minutes before curfew, OPD issued warnings to disperse and sprayed protestors with tear gas. (The curfew had just been announced that afternoon. What if protesters hadn't received the message? What if they were on foot and didn't have a way to leave?) This is just another example of how breaking a social contract propagates more rage and aggression.)

I don't think shows of force or locking people up are solutions. What we're seeing now is a symptom of inequality, rage, and racial oppression, not the cause. At this time, punitive measures will just lead to more violence and destruction.

[AxelHeyst]

@Laura

To be fair to the white people (of whom I am one), we also get told to "listen" and "make space." There are a lot of mixed messages about what a woke white person is supposed to be doing at any given time. That's why usually I am happy to be classified as non-woke.

I just had a conversation with DW about navigating "white silence = white consent" and "#mutemelanatedvoices. But I also think that expecting there to be a clear message for whites, a clear path to being the very best ally we can possibly be, is... what's the right word... asking a bit much of an insanely complex issue, and then laying the expectation for a neat solution at the feet of the oppressed. Hey, black folks, can you just, like, get organized and develop a nice bullet list of what we should and shouldn't do so we can wrap this up? I know you're busy, what with being held down by the system for hundred of years, dealing with a complex failure ratchet, and then getting blamed for literally all of it, but I've got some white person shit to do and this topic is super bumming me out.

[Alphaville]

1. We are dropping pants and bending over with a big bulls eye painted on our asses for terrorists right now

https://www.advocate.com/sexy-beast/201 ... y-media-11

“love doesn’t care who’s a top or a bottom”

plus other useful lessons in that link

[AxelHeyst]

@AxelHeyst
My conscience is clear...

Yeah, and to be clear, I wasn't trying to call you out, it was more that your comment sparked me to relay the gist of the convo/thoughts I'd had about the issue earlier.

But since we're here, there *are* a ton of pretty easy-reading articles if one DAFS for "how to be an ally black lives matter". This one is even numbered for ease of reference. A lot of the stuff I skimmed in a few minutes is stuff I consistently see us (us=white people) being actively clueless about, that it doesn't take a graduate degree from Berkeley to be able to actionize. So, allyship for lazy asses seems pretty well buttoned up to me, to be honest.

[7Wannabe5]

@AxelHeyst:

I found that list of actions for white people annoying. The reason being that it barely challenges the reader to depart from likely quite affluent liberal perspective or place of privilege. Start a book group! Write your congressperson to suggest new rules governing the likely racist behavior of white teachers who teach black kids! Hug a black kid, if you happen to know one!

How about...Send your child to an inner city school that has 98% black and brown students and 2% white kids, one of whom is known as “Dogface” due to fact pitbull ripped half of his face off when he was 3! Share some fantastic food and sex with your new black lover, chuckle when he raises his voice towards treble and makes his moves more robotic as he does impression of the white engineers he works with, contemplate on the likelihood that he would vote Republican if he was white! Put on a pink hijab that makes you look like aging Virgin Mary, take off your shoes and enter the women’s section at the Islamic Center with your second generation teenage Middle-Eastern American stepdaughter who had to be dragged along, feel almost as bored during the service as you did while attending Episcopal church when you were teenager!

[IlliniDave]

Yeah, the feel-good stuff promoted by the affluent and safely-segregated ivory tower crowd isn't going to move the needle. It seems so mindlessly conceived sometimes that I wonder if it is some attempt at psyops.

I believe any effort to address socioeconomic outcome differences that doesn't start with an examination of what those entrusted with the equivalent of maybe a few tens of $T in today's money (allegedly, seems like too much to me but add all the federal, state, local, and private funding over 55 years, who knows) that has been thrown at war-on-poverty themed programs over the last 55 years have done with it, is doomed to the predictable failure of mindlessly repeating failed actions. If there is anyone out there those who feel disadvantaged should feel victimized by, it is most likely the people entrusted to steward those resources, not some abstract bad [insert your favorite immutable trait/gender] person living hundreds or thousands of miles away in some forgotten rural corner. The further away from the "front line" the blame is assigned, the less likely it will trigger a better outcome. And the only reason to find who or what is to blame is to know what not to do going forward. All scams and influence peddling need to be eliminated.

I agree with the idea above that some conversations need to be had. Painful ones, I'm afraid. Very blunt and honest ones. Any alleged "systemic" issues need to be concretely identified, and out of all the things we've tried, we need to figure out what worked and what didn't, why things worked or didn't work, and take it from there with all sides having a voice. Different communities need to be looked at specifically, no vague generalizations, past failures admitted, and more easily audited/graded paths forward need to be identified.

[7Wannabe5]

On the topic of preventable outcomes and hugely expensive epidemics. Here’s a note on fetal alcohol syndrome, which although it definitely cuts across the race divide, is more prevalent in lower socioeconomic settings. Quite possibly as many as 1% of infants permanently damaged and estimated cost to society of $2 million per case. Very easy to spot in the classroom.

https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/fasd/data.html

[AxelHeyst]

@AxelHeyst:

I found that list of actions for white people annoying.

Agreed, same here, and I think you should post your list to medium or somewhere, but is your reaction to it because it was written for Race Issue Wheaton 0/1 muggles, and you're a >5?

Yeah, the feel-good stuff promoted by the affluent and safely-segregated ivory tower crowd isn't going to move the needle. It seems so mindlessly conceived sometimes that I wonder if it is some attempt at psyops.

I suspect some of it is psyops, but assuming it isn't for a moment, isn't that how a Wheaton >5 would view a Wheaton 1-directed text? The point of that list isn't to "fix the issue", it's an effort to get L0/1 white people from saying the horrifically ignorant shit they keep on saying and nudge them in the direction of upper wheaton levels (ideally, anyway). People who are 100% clueless about the black experience and don't understand why "they" don't all just go to college and get good jobs instead of _____, are not capable of coming to the adult table and having the hard conversations you're talking about (which I completely agree with the entire rest of your post, by the way).

[ZAFCorrection]

@AxelHeyst

Your list is encouraging in that people are trying to put together actionable shit to do. I'm not sure all this focus on POC media consumption is all that useful, but it's something. One thing I would point out is, POC-centered carve-outs aside, there is no mention of economic factors in that list. That's a bit more evidence that social justice seems to have gotten co-opted by the neoliberals, pushing proposals that always maintain the economic status quo.

Unfortunately, the economic system in the US is such that you are kind of fucked if you can't make the leap to some relatively high-paying knowledge worker job. That usually requires above-average intelligence or at least a pretty deep upbringing infrastructure (e.g. helicopter parents) to make happen. You could argue that people can just go the ERE route on a lower salary, but again, in the current culture above-average intelligence and a willingness to be unusual are required. Since this affects the black community even more severely than other demographics due to having no capital for the helicopter parenting bit, I would expect economics to be right up there with policing policy as a serious concern. Moreover, I would expect policies that are more politically viable (i.e. the whole country can get on board) than "all white people give money to all black people."

[7Wannabe5]

@AxelHeyst:

No, I think I find it annoying because it is written for affluent Level 3 muggles and I am Level 5 Unlike IDave, I believe that some further good could be done with $$. In particular, I would favor more spending on very early childhood interventions. Although that doesn’t mean that effectiveness of current programs shouldn’t be evaluated. For instance, I would favor less spending towards incarceration of 9 year old children.

ETA: Another item I might add to list for my Medium article would be- Sign up to be therapeutic foster care provider. I was considering doing this myself, but the bureaucratic requirements would kill me. Also, I am old.

[IlliniDave]

Unlike IDave, I believe that some further good could be done with $$ ...

I believe you are mischaracterizing me. It's fair to extrapolate that I might assert entrusting more money to the same people to continue managing what they've mismanaged for generations is probably folly. We need to spend money in ways that measurably counteract concrete, measurable, pillars of what people allege is "systemic" racism or class disadvantage or whatever. Part of that might mean hiring new stewards, part might be directing resources to alternative angles from which to attack the specific underlying causes (assuming they can be identified beyond "people on this part of the color wheel don't like people on that part of the color wheel").

It's the same philosophy that underlies YMOYL--look at the dollars you've spent and decide whether the expenditure advanced well-being, hurt it, or did nothing. When it's one of the latter two, common sense says you might want to consider employing your resources otherwise, and hopefully more effectively. Edit to add: In this case meaning applying resources differently towards the same end, not taking all the resources away and directing them to some unrelated purpose.

[nomadscientist]

The COVID relevance:

The US (and now Europe, for whatever mad reason) has conducted a massive epidemiological experiment in radical social closening in what was looking like the dying stages of a pandemic.

Either:

1. the virus will rebound significantly, with interesting political implications that may be off-topic

or

2. it won't, with the implication that everywhere should be reopened quickly with only the cheapest precautions remaining

[IlliniDave]

...
I suspect some of it is psyops, but assuming it isn't for a moment, isn't that how a Wheaton >5 would view a Wheaton 1-directed text? The point of that list isn't to "fix the issue", it's an effort to get L0/1 white people from saying the horrifically ignorant shit they keep on saying and nudge them in the direction of upper wheaton levels (ideally, anyway). People who are 100% clueless about the black experience and don't understand why "they" don't all just go to college and get good jobs instead of _____, are not capable of coming to the adult table and having the hard conversations you're talking about (which I completely agree with the entire rest of your post, by the way).

First, I'm not up on the Wheaton jargon. So if it's important for understanding the rest of the paragraph, apologies for any misunderstanding.

I think everybody (not literally, but all cohorts) get a seat at the table this time, ignorant of whatever experience or not. No more exclusivity. If nothing else everyone has the right to ask individuals who promote themselves as leadership for aiding those of said experience, "You've been spending our tax money for decades. What have you done with it? What have your ideas and programs improved, hurt, or made no difference about? Let's see the data that backs your responses and talk about it."

That last question is a tough one because if we're in a worsening crisis, meaning despite all the efforts of the last 55 years things have gone backwards, it forces some people to admit their leadership and ideas have been abject failures. If the answer is we've made significant measurable strides in the last 55 years (what I tend to believe has happened overall, or at least want to believe because I've supported most of the efforts in principle and financially), then the question becomes a) then why are we up in arms looking to throw tea into the harbor and b) given where we are, what's the data suggest as causal and what's the best way to addresses causes? I happen to also think there's a good way to go, and the answer to that last question is difficult to get the powers-that-be to answer honestly because it's intertwined in a broader economic class "warfare" where it appears the elites are trying to stamp out the US middle class, which when it was large could challenge the elites in power. So to answer truthfully, these leaders would likely have to admit their power grab has hurt or held back ethnic communities and other less affluent cohorts.

So it's a difficult conversation no matter what. The conversation going forward, if limited to a small exclusive group (i.e., the same group of people who have controlled the domain for 50 years) is just going to result in the same ineffective backroom deals we should be trying ditch for effective action.

[tonyedgecombe]

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/03/euro-zo ... -2020.html

There's the next powder keg, we'll see if they get a spark to ignite it.

I just finished reading a book on peoples lack of perception on various issues like crime or teenage pregnancy. Italy came out top in the countries surveyed in terms of mis-understanding what is going on around them.

Anyway people have been whinging about the EU and predicting the collapse of the Euro for decades, I'll believe it when I see it.

[CS]

CIA analyst are flagging this as what they see in a country before it collapses:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... story.html

In interviews and posts on social media in recent days, current and former U.S. intelligence officials have expressed dismay at the similarity between events at home and the signs of decline or democratic regression they were trained to detect in other nations.

“I’ve seen this kind of violence,” said Gail Helt, a former CIA analyst responsible for tracking developments in China and Southeast Asia. “This is what autocrats do. This is what happens in countries before a collapse. It really does unnerve me.”

[7Wannabe5]

@IDave:

Gotcha. I should note that I believe there are well-meaning people who believe the essential problem can’t be solved with any amount of $$.

My take, and this really has more to do with socioeconomic problems that overlap with race issues in the U.S., is that fewer people in offices and more boots on the ground are needed. Best easy, obviously idealized for tv viewing, example I can reference would be “Call the Midwife.” The problem is where in the heck are we going to get all of those volunteer nuns?!

In general, I think one of the main reasons much of our social functioning has become worse is that not employed outside of the home females used to constitute a flexible volunteer social army, and we have not yet figured out how to replace that unpaid labor equitably. However, positive perspective might be that the peaceful majority of the protestors are using their unemployed time to do some social work.