COVID-19

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chenda
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Re: COVID-19

Post by chenda »

saving-10-years wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:25 am

I'm glad to see mask wearing in shops becoming a requirement but its hard to argue for this and not for wearing them in bars and in workplaces. Maybe people won't want to buy and take home/use items that other people have coughed or breathed near to?
I'm thinking it's just impractical to wear them in a bar/restaurant, which are in anyway higher risk environments compared to shops.

shemp
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Re: COVID-19

Post by shemp »

Food stores, pharmacies and doctor/dentist offices are used by the elderly and other vulnerable populations, and therefore rules should be much stricter there and compliance should be strictly enforced. Masks are mostly to protect other people, not the wearer.

Elderly who want to be safe can simply avoid bars.

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jennypenny
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Re: COVID-19

Post by jennypenny »

shemp wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:29 am
Elderly who want to be safe can simply avoid bars.
Ha! I can't wait until all you youngins hit an 'at risk' age and realize that you still want to do all the fun things you've always done. I actually spend more time on the fun things since I'm older/wiser and have learned to spend as much time as possible on the good stuff.

So put on a mask and save me a stool. 8-)

saving-10-years
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Re: COVID-19

Post by saving-10-years »

@shemp and @chenda Thanks for the explanations. Yes I can see that going to bars to drink is probably impeded by mask wearing. :lol: (Explanation for my oversight here: I tend to be there for a chess match so not really into drinking much, I get my fun other ways). Mask + straw would be my favoured plan when I need to visit a bar.

Being elderly (60+) I am probably am one of the target group for being reassured into venturing out to shops etc. if people mask up there. It seems to have worked (I am somewhat reassured).

Workers are assumed to be 'fit enough/young enough' to withstand infection from colleagues, or perhaps not get ill enough to affect their work?

CS
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Re: COVID-19

Post by CS »

Florida children (nominally the least susceptible group) have a higher positivity rate than the general population there at 31.1%. They are also seeing lung damage on asymptomatic kids. This is possibly a life-long disability if the scarring is permanent. No sports would just be the beginning--it would also preclude them from health insurance if the ACA is rescinded and nothing takes is place, which is a current legal goal of the Republican party, aka a good chunk of voters.

https://thehill.com/changing-america/we ... tested-are

So yeah, go have a beer and think about your lungs scarring up.

The virus has also been shown to hang in the air as an aerosol for 16 hours. You couldn't pay me enough to go to an indoor bar.https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/9/20-1806_article

It also brings up the fact that deaths are not the only outcome. It's not deaths versus recovery. It's a broad spectrum of consequences, many that effect others around the people infected.

- permanent lung damage
- permanent heart damange
- strokes (stroke recovery is not guaranteed and is an extremely resource intensive process even if successful)
- neurological damage upto and including loss of cognitive function

Here some rough numbers based on anecdote rates. It is just a sketch of what could happen:
https://twitter.com/twisty_elias/status ... 85347?s=20

Of course, if we let people die on the roadside, stop all extra benefits and stop paying disability, none of this will be a problem. The shanty towns will be an eyesore though. Would grocery shopping be more dangerous? Perhaps, if things are taken from you in the parking lot.

@CL
Sorry to use your own words for non-semi ER. I can understand burnout. I'm just saying I'd of pushed myself harder.

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jennypenny
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Re: COVID-19

Post by jennypenny »

CS wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:49 am
You couldn't pay me enough to go to an indoor bar.
I was joking before. There's no way I'd go anywhere indoors unless I had to right now (groceries, pharmacy, etc). My point was that I want to do my normal summer thing just as much as anyone else.

It's funny how people (here and elsewhere) talk about how the older/at-risk population will have to continue to isolate while everyone else gets to get back to life, as if it matters less to older people.

CS
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Re: COVID-19

Post by CS »

jennypenny wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:19 pm
I was joking before. There's no way I'd go anywhere indoors unless I had to right now (groceries, pharmacy, etc). My point was that I want to do my normal summer thing just as much as anyone else.
Oh, I could not agree more! I think my affect was much flatter on my post than I intended - sort of concentrating on getting the info out. I can almost taste the envy when hearing about countries getting back to normal.

Just thinking about all that is out of reach right now is depressing.

chenda
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Re: COVID-19

Post by chenda »

I've just been to a large Tesco's and virtually no one was wearing a mask, and the few that were were mostly Asian. I felt the odd one out wearing one. Presumably they think the virus will be kind enough to hold off until the 24th when it becomes mandatory :roll:

UK-with-kids
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Re: COVID-19

Post by UK-with-kids »

chenda wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 7:39 am
I've just been to a large Tesco's and virtually no one was wearing a mask, and the few that were were mostly Asian. I felt the odd one out wearing one. Presumably they think the virus will be kind enough to hold off until the 24th when it becomes mandatory :roll:
I can empathise with that. I've not been into a shop without wearing a mask since March, and we've often been the only ones wearing them. We've actually had some hassle from strangers getting too close and telling us they don't believe in Coronavirus!

jacob
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Re: COVID-19

Post by jacob »

CS wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:49 am
- permanent lung damage
- permanent heart damange
- strokes (stroke recovery is not guaranteed and is an extremely resource intensive process even if successful)
- neurological damage upto and including loss of cognitive function
Also...

- post viral fatigue syndrome / chronic fatigue syndrome, sometimes lasting many months
- acute onset diabetes (in otherwise healthy individuals), sometimes permanent

Many of these were also seen in SARS-1 survivors. A lot of the research seems to draw on that connection. Mainly because the quality is the same but the quantities are of course completely different with SARS-2 ("coronavirus") and we don't have enough history until next year.

These side-effects only occur in 1-10% of the cases, so I'm sure a lot of people will think that "it won't happen to me" and act accordingly. Same reason some people don't wear bike helmets, drive w/o seatbelts, or skip condoms or vaccinations.

OTCW
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Re: COVID-19

Post by OTCW »

I went to the home depot to stock up on trash bags, hvac filters, got some paint and wood for garage repairs, etc. I only saw two people not in masks. One old guy, and one early teen. The teen had his around his neck, but not over his face.

jacob
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Re: COVID-19

Post by jacob »

Mask usage is apparently extremely local in nature. It can vary from neighborhood to neighborhood. A lot of it has to do with not wanting to be "That Guy" (whether it's a mask-on or mask-off neighborhood) rather than more medical/risk based reasons. Statisticians have looked into the juicy data. In the US, political affiliation is the biggest determinant (20% spread); not zip code, not age, not gender, ...

See e.g. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/202 ... k-map.html (spoiler, it's pretty much the opposite of this map https://covidactnow.org/?s=716119 )

catpepper
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Re: COVID-19

Post by catpepper »

the virus also affects male fertility.

Source: https://www.thailandmedical.news/news/b ... so-orchiti

AnalyticalEngine
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Re: COVID-19

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

COVID-19 has been a case study in the fact that humanity's response to any crisis is almost never rational. Even if a given leader has a policy based in rational science, it's basically impossible to guide a mob of people. This is why the response to COVID-19 seems to be either denial (it's just the flu/it won't happen to me), blame (it's x country's or x party's fault), moving the goal post (I won't let this stop me from living life), tribalism (mask debacle), or immobilizing panic. It's not unlike climate change in that aspect.

This is something I always knew in theory, but in practice, responded with the "it won't happen to me" mentality about crises. Living through this has made me even less hopeful about our collective ability to deal with climate change and resource depletion. It also strikes me why Kegan levels and political maneuvering skills are important. It's not just the natural science of a crisis that matters. It's also knowing how humanity will be predictably irrational in its response.

(I may be being too harsh here since some countries have actually managed to deal with this)

nomadscientist
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Re: COVID-19

Post by nomadscientist »

It's an awkward situation because on a social level it's very survivable, just kind of inhumane to think like that. At the same time, humanity has a tendency to approximate lifespan as infinity when in reality it's neither that for the old and sick who will die of the virus nor that for the young and unemployed.

IOW, if this were airborne ebola we would see a different response.

catpepper
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Re: COVID-19

Post by catpepper »

AnalyticalEngine wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:30 pm
Living through this has made me even less hopeful about our collective ability to deal with climate change and resource depletion. It also strikes me why Kegan levels and political maneuvering skills are important. It's not just the natural science of a crisis that matters. It's also knowing how humanity will be predictably irrational in its response.
I think you bring up a really good point. There are so many differing opinions out there. Even when there truly is a pandemic out there, but people don't seem to be wanting to work together to get over this crisis. I don't know how we are going to brave through another storm like this when it happens in the future.

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jennypenny
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Re: COVID-19

Post by jennypenny »

AnalyticalEngine wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:30 pm
Living through this has made me even less hopeful about our collective ability to deal with climate change and resource depletion.
OTOH, it has also shown that nature has more ways to deal with them than we imagined (or imagined were likely). The bigger question to me is whether humanity will respond by figuring out how to live within the bounds of a smaller footprint or kill each other off even more quickly than nature will in a (vain) attempt at holding onto the status quo. My guess is that this crisis (and subsequent ones) will end up culling particular cultures more than simply individuals. Adaptable cultures will thrive. Others won't. And if so, I wonder if adaptable people in unadaptable cultures are doomed.

classical_Liberal
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Re: COVID-19

Post by classical_Liberal »

jennypenny wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:19 pm
It's funny how people (here and elsewhere) talk about how the older/at-risk population will have to continue to isolate while everyone else gets to get back to life, as if it matters less to older people.
Yeah, here's the thing. There are ALWAYS people who are more at risk. Maybe leukopenic people from chemo, people with COPD, the list really goes on and on. I have a good friend with such bad allergies she had to move to the desert. So please don't get me wrong. I absolutely feel for people with health conditions. As a matter of fact, I'm often the one wiping tears when someone is diagnosed with these types of life altering ailments both personally and professionally. I feel so bad for the elderly in nursing homes who have been isolated due to COVID, and those in memory care who have been taken out of routines and can't see loved ones regularly (usually the last straw of normalcy for these people). It's frigg'en horrible, it breaks my heart.

However, we can't shut down society for the chemo patient. It's on their onous to take the appropriate precautions outside of the medical environment to deal with their health condition. It's the same here. Yes, we should try to help them. Make essential things accessible. Heck, a smart bar owner would take advantage of this and have a weekly senior day where masks are required and the place gets a good disinfection beforehand. But we can't expect the majority to cater to the minority due to their health in all situations, all of the time. We would be in a continuous state of lockdown. It's just that all the deaths from infectious diseases in at risk populations don't normally make the nightly news.

chenda
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Re: COVID-19

Post by chenda »

jacob wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:42 am
Mask usage is apparently extremely local in nature.
Yes my sister said the IKEA down the road had at least 50% compliance, which probably reflects differences in the clientele.

Really though retailers should have collectively agreed - or be ordered by government - to have made masks mandatory months ago. Give punters a free one at entry. No masks no entry. It's not like this is Japan or Korea, Britons need some prodding...

It was particularly disappointing that in Tesco even staff weren't wearing masks. The checkout people were behind plexi glass but it sets a poor example to their customers next weekend.
AnalyticalEngine wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:30 pm
It also strikes me why Kegan levels and political maneuvering skills are important. It's not just the natural science of a crisis that matters. It's also knowing how humanity will be predictably irrational in its response. (I may be being too harsh here since some countries have actually managed to deal with this)
Very true. Although some countries have clearly had significant geographical, demographic and cultural advantages, good leadership which recognises this is vital.

BeyondtheWrap
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Re: COVID-19

Post by BeyondtheWrap »

saving-10-years wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:30 am
Workers are assumed to be 'fit enough/young enough' to withstand infection from colleagues, or perhaps not get ill enough to affect their work?
I think their reasoning for not requiring masks in the workplace is a combination of:
1) Being around the same group of people every day (like in an office, or at home) is lower risk than repeatedly coming into contact with large numbers of random strangers (like in a supermarket), and
2) If one person in the office has COVID, everyone will get it anyway, mask or no mask.

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