May-December Relationships, In-Vitro Fertilization, Freezing Eggs, and Other Considerations

[Mister Imperceptible]

I am 32 year old male and have never been really appreciated by women my own age or younger. I have always been greater than the sum of my superficial parts.

I am in conversation with a woman who is 45 years of age, never engaged, never married, no children. She is three inches taller than me (six feet tall!), beautiful, has a rocking body, is a PhD, and is gainfully employed. This as a package is extremely attractive to me because I crave the Alpha Female. Having the Alpha Female for its own sake, and also having her as the mother of my child.

She is African-American and those women have a way of aging most gracefully, at least in terms of looks. Grey hair won’t bother me because that’s hot in a Claire Huxtable kind of way. I understand that May-December relationships frequently fail because the younger partner becomes disinterested in the older partner sexually. She is absolutely stunning. In fact, I am honest with myself in that were she still only 32, I would be invisible to her. As Benjamin Franklin says, older women are so grateful. It also seems to be the case that she has been sufficiently burned and broken to the point that is open to a different type of man than the ones she is used to, and will be amenable to lifestyle design changes for the sake of achieving higher goals. Maybe not enough to live with me in an RV in a Cracker Barrel parking lot. But at least in a manner that is not anti-ERE and does not force me to live the horrors being endured by @Suo and @Augustus.

She tells me the women in her family are highly fertile and she has had to take caution not to have had any accidents to this point, although she tells me she has been mostly celibate as a prototypical church lady. And this is fine by me, because my experience with church ladies is that they make you work for it, but when they finally let loose they really let loose.

Despite her family history, her age means time is limited. I have had so much on my plate that I want to accomplish before starting a family. Financial independence, greater cultivation of the self, becoming a better, more capable, more powerful human being, climbing the Wheaton scale and gathering independence from the system. Wife and child tethers one to the system. It is all so terrifying to me as it is intensely erotic.

I am reading what standard materials are available from a Google search. Considerations:

-I want a strong, tall, healthy, intelligent child. Does her age compromise her ability to have such children, despite her array of above-average to far-above-average attributes? Can this risk be mitigated by utilizing in vitro fertilization instead of a natural conception?

-Would it be better to discuss the possibility of freezing her eggs, and starting pregnancy at a later date, when we both feel more ready? This would be an additional cost, and as I understand it, there is no guarantee of success. Parenthood is taxing and I don’t want to be less of the man I can become because I am unable to focus the requisite time and energy on non-parenthood related goals and systems.

-Am I being impatient? I understand if I am not ready, I can always just wait to meet a partner in several years. But I have been deferring gratification for so long now. I am very lonely, and by having something rock solid in my life, I can stop wasting time on bad dates. I am not one for polyamory either. On one hand I am not the Casanova I would like to be, and on the other hand I have too much pity for women to use them like objects. Breaking hearts just ain’t my game.

I have long thought that, as Aristotle instructed, no man should marry before 35. Of course, I won’t have 17-year-olds to get married to who will unquestionably obey the will of the paterfamilias. This is the world we live in now.

I have lain with older married women in the backseat of my car tucked away behind a Barnes and Noble. They tell me their husbands are monsters who purchased them and now they resent being trophy wives, or women who were forced to marry for a green card. I have experienced much, maybe too much, and am now like one of Guy de Maupassant’s cynical young Frenchmen. If I wait until I am older, and my wealth becomes a factor in attracting a mate, it will be as @Sclass says, my wife will cheat on me with younger men, and she will take the wealth I fought so hard for after growing up poor. And I am fearful of that bitch Karma.

Perhaps it is suboptimal that she is older. But as the younger man I will have the power, it is she that will be insecure. In my experience, it is only the man who can have the power and rule benevolently like a Nebuchadnezzar. When the woman takes power, she begins to have contempt for the man, and becomes sadistic. Just my experience. It is the man who must rule benevolently because he is capable of being magnanimous.

@Jennypenny, @Ego, @Seppia, what advice do you have as ones who have gone all-in? I am simultaneously afraid of prematurely committing, as I am of analysis paralysis to the point of not having anyone near me, living a life apart. So far choosing the latter has built a wall of sorrow and madness.

[7Wannabe5]

And this is fine by me, because my experience with church ladies is that they make you work for it, but when they finally let loose they really let loose.

Why am I imagining some different sort of forum on which she is currently typing "And this is fine by me, because my experience with tightwads is that they make you work for it, but when they finally let loose they really let loose."

I'm sure you don't really need me to supply this information, but likelihood of spontaneous pregnancy nullipara at age 45 is practically non-existent. I know because I investigated the possibility in depth during deep infatuation phase of my second mid-life "marriage." I even briefly considered the possibility of buying an egg from some young Ukrainian woman. Luckily, I came to my senses.

That said, I had a brief fling with a 32 year old partner when I was 44, and it was kind of fun because older guys aren't as likely to literally **** you across the floor anymore, but I definitely would not say that I felt "grateful" for his attentions. More like the feeling you are having when you laugh out loud because somebody startled you by jumping in the pool and swamping you with a wave.

[unemployable]

My God, you need Franco Harris raised to the power of Christian Laettner. (This and this, for those not familiar with American sportsball.) Forty-five is too late to start freezing eggs.

What's your current level of engagement here? Sounds like no sex yet. From all you've told us we don't know whether she looks like her pictures. And you're thinking about your kids? Yikes.

I am honest with myself in that were she still only 32, I would be invisible to her.

Because her age-32 self had far better options, and I promise you she took advantage of them.

she has been sufficiently burned and broken

Say she's had, I don't know, 10 relationships, however you want to define that. What's more likely, that you'll be different this time or you'll be notch #11?

[C40]

Have you slept with this woman yet? If not... it sounds like you're getting the cart way ahead of the horses. I recommend you enjoy your time with this woman and let things play out. If it moves along well, have this conversation (the subjects of your post) with her.

And - also - if having children of your own is important to you - start working really hard on figuring out how to get along better with younger women (or maybe more specifically, how to meet the ones you would get along with)

[suomalainen]

and does not force me to live the horrors being endured by @Suo and @Augustus.

Hahahaha. Hear that, @Augustus? We’re living the horrors!! Hahahahahaa.

Oh man.

[Jason]

Quoting not one, but two of the most high profile suspected pederasts in the Western Tradition to support the merits of healthy adult relationships?

Forget about Foxy Brown's eggs. This threads needs to be frozen.

[horsewoman]

There is so much wrong with this post I was cringing all the way. Come on! No wonder that the girls are not overly appreciative...

Quoting not one, but two of the most high profile suspected pederasts in the Western Tradition to support the merits of healthy adult relationships?

Forget about Foxy Brown's eggs. This threads needs to be frozen.

Yes, please!

[2Birds1Stone]

Redacted, I'm joining Fish.

[CS]

Perhaps it is suboptimal that she is older. But as the younger man I will have the power, it is she that will be insecure. In my experience, it is only the man who can have the power and rule benevolently like a Nebuchadnezzar. When the woman takes power, she begins to have contempt for the man, and becomes sadistic. Just my experience. It is the man who must rule benevolently because he is capable of being magnanimous.

I think you have this backwards. As a 45 year old woman, she knows from experience she is just fine on her own. Also, if this is what you want, then I don't think Alpha woman means what you think it means.

[ZAFCorrection]

If I remember correctly, Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Solomon's temple and took the Jews into captivity. Not sure of the meaning of that metaphor.

[jacob]

Ugh! I think this one applies again: viewtopic.php?p=187886#p187886

[Bankai]

I read this post to my wife... If I had £1 for each time she gasped, I'd be FI right now.

[Mister Imperceptible]

I met her online. She is overseas working as a military contractor. We have texted each other everyday for a month and I have video chatted via Skype with her over a dozen times, our calls averaging over an hour each. She is very conservative and I really had to give many assurances that I wasn’t just another white guy seeking to satisfy a fetish and was genuinely interested in her. She has also been very reticent about dating in general as a result of being mistreated herself. People in her community have either decried her as an Uncle Tom because she is ambitious/aspirational/successful, or they have manipulated her kindness/compassion to cheat her out of money, which is something I can easily sympathize with having endured the same thing.

She tells me everyday that she appreciates me and expresses gratitude that I appreciate her as well. I tell her everyday that she’s beautiful. I have asked her several times if she will get tired of me telling her how beautiful she is. She says it will never get old. She has her moments where she is feeling herself and boasts that she has tiaras at home. I asked that when she comes to visit me, that she bring one of her tiaras so that I might worship her properly. She said she would oblige.

Her contract expires in November and she is returning to the States. We do not live in the same area, but she has agreed to cancel the trip she had planned to visit her alumni, and instead has booked a plane ticket to see me for a weekend instead, because I am unable to take time off work. She paid for her own plane ticket, and for the hotel she plans to stay at. I had to give her many assurances that just because she is flying to see me, there is no obligation to engage in anything sexual. But the trip to see me is necessary to verify that the chemistry we feel via Skype translates into an in-person attraction. I said, of course, I am a gentleman and she is under no obligation, and if she so desires to sleep alone in her hotel because she is not yet comfortable, I will go home.

Of course I am aware that there is a power dynamic inherent in all relationships. The age discrepancy is what is allowing me to punch above my weight here in terms of physical attractiveness. When I say that being younger than her and so I have power, that does not mean having the power to tell her to get into the kitchen and make me a sandwich. I mean having the power to remain a financial tightwad that is undeterred from my path and destiny whilst still being able to enjoy her companionship, because we both enter into it freely without compulsion. Because as 7w5’s sardonic post above indicates, not only does thinking with your dick often result in your web of goals being pulled apart, it often means the woman drops a fucking atomic bomb on your web of goals and laughs her ass off.

I had been asking her about her investments because I want to help her. She is clueless on that front. I had told her about the RV, the student debt, the dreams of becoming FI, etc. Last year a guy cheated her out of $10,000 because he sold her on some business idea and he just stole it while she was eating rice and beans. Based on our conversations, she decided to text me the passwords to her retirement accounts and asked me to manage them for her, so much does she now trust me. And she said taking the leap of faith was so cathartic for her, that while doing so she absolutely burst into tears. I was so moved that, yes, I started thinking about her eggs.

@Dr Z
Yeah, I meant Hammurabi, as in someone who is harsh/severe/austere, but fair. Wrong Babylonian.

[Jean]

Just be clear with her that having child is very important to you and that you ready to do everything to have it happen.

[Mister Imperceptible]

I can also recognize that my attempts at a classical mode of speech is for the men of letters and is frequently offensive to those with strictly modern tastes. So in the future maybe I need to do a better job articulating myself in a manner you might be capable of understanding.

See:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity

[IlliniDave]

MI,

Congrats on finding someone that intrigues you, and with whom a future seems possible.

I went "all-in", but after 16 years I lost. That may disqualify me from answering. The one thing I would say is that the most important thing should be the two of you. Children just may not be possible unless you adopt or some other workaround.

Not sure what you mean about committing prematurely. Have the two of you been discussing marriage? I'd say it's not unreasonable to keep a foot hovering over the brake pedal at least until she returns to the States and you two are able to spend some time together in person. You should be able to figure out pretty quickly after that happens where you want to go. No need to decide now.

As far as the age difference, I don't see that as a big deal in-and-of-itself. What matters more is where the two of you are in your respective life arcs. Maybe you could say it as whether your maturity levels are compatible. That like many other things will become more apparent once the two of you spend time together.

I think CS or another astute person mentioned this before. She's likely pretty well established in her life, and I suspect she has some amount of, and need for, independence. That may go along with being an "Alpha" (honestly, I'm not entirely sure what that means in the context in which you bring it up). So it could be she needs an amount of space and that's something you might need to be prepared to accommodate. Actually, being a bit of an introvert, that would be near the ideal situation for me as I too am older, established, and need an amount of space at times. If it turns out that's the case w/her, don't take it personally.

[Ego]

I don't have any advice regarding the relationship other than to say, DO NOT MAKE ANY CHANGES TO HER RETIREMENT ACCOUNT. DO NOT EVEN OPEN THE ACCOUNT.

Also, I mean this in the nicest way possible.... Consider if it is wise to hitch yourself to a woman, no matter how beautiful and alpha, who would give the password of her retirement account to someone she's known for a month and never met in person. It has the whiff of a confidence scam. Be on the lookout for the Hurrah.

I look forward to hearing how the visit goes.

[Mister Imperceptible]

@iDave

Thanks for the input, you know I’ve read your journal closely and I am trying to make the best decision possible in this topsy-turvy world. What I mean by committing prematurely is that I am from extremely humble origins and am still at only the beginnings of what I hope is a far upward trajectory. My stock is rising. I am undecided if it would be better to be on top of the world, and select what might be available to me at the time, or if it would be better to have someone who wants me when I am still dramatically underestimated, because I can really trust them later on, when my positive attributes become so obvious to the many other women in hindsight that it slaps them in the face.

What I mean by Alpha is a woman that not only is independent/educated/smart and with a good work ethic but a woman that looks so damn good that she turns heads and people will think “How did that dork Mister Imperceptible end up with her????”

@Ego

Thank you. I will refrain from logging in. She told me that she has been robbed and taken advantage of so many times that there is only something like $800 in there anyway. This might have been one of those examples of me being taken advantage of again. I expect and hope not but you never know.

[IlliniDave]

@iDave

Thanks for the input, you know I’ve read your journal closely and I am trying to make the best decision possible in this topsy-turvy world. What I mean by committing prematurely is that I am from extremely humble origins and am still at only the beginnings of what I hope is a far upward trajectory. My stock is rising. I am undecided if it would be better to be on top of the world, and select what might be available to me at the time, or if it would be better to have someone who wants me when I am still dramatically underestimated, because I can really trust them later on, when my positive attributes become so obvious to the many other women in hindsight that it slaps them in the face.

Ah okay. First off, I believe despite the way the steps of the dance go, it's usually the woman who actually does the selecting.

Also, you are assuming that the right partner might not be a, or even the, key to rising to the top of the world. It's your decision but you already say you are punching above your weight with her. Whether you make it to the top of the world, and whether you'll have better selections at that time, are both far from certain. I don't think anyone from my past is looking at me with remorse for having let me get away. Maybe your attributes are superior, though. It's equally probable that you will look back from the top of the world and regret the attributes of someone from your past that you did not see because you kept one eye on the horizon looking for a better deal.

I'd say for now stop thinking about that and when you spend some time with her, be fully immersed and enjoy it. In time you'll know what to do.

[Laura Ingalls]

I think it is indicative of bad boundaries to share financial data so early. That being said I knew DH both trusted me and was into me when he shared his 401k balance while looking at a beautiful moon over a beautiful stretch of river. (It was many multiples of your friend’s in nominal dollars ignoring inflation.)

I would also wonder how ERE compatible anyone that is that old, healthy and non-disabled, well educated, and childless and had so little labeled as retirement saved to date would be.

I won’t pile on with the fertility thing.