Warning: WH seeks to limit/deport immigrants using ACA and other gov. services

Health, Fitness, Food, Insurance, Longevity, Diets,...
Post Reply
BRUTE
Posts: 3797
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2015 5:20 pm

Re: Warning: WH seeks to limit/deport immigrants using ACA and other gov. services

Post by BRUTE »

yea it's weird. it's not that brute thinks whiteism is amazing or anything, but the fact that he doesn't hate whites and everything related to whites is now considered baseline racist.

RealPerson
Posts: 875
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:33 pm

Re: Warning: WH seeks to limit/deport immigrants using ACA and other gov. services

Post by RealPerson »

jacob wrote:
Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:07 am
Previously expats had been effectively barred from moving back with their foreign spouses.
Seriously? Denmark? Isn't that a violation of EU law?

Lemon
Posts: 261
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 2:29 am

Re: Warning: WH seeks to limit/deport immigrants using ACA and other gov. services

Post by Lemon »

@realperson

Several EU countries do similar. In the UK your immigrant spouse is only allowed in if you meet an earnings cap.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9372
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Warning: WH seeks to limit/deport immigrants using ACA and other gov. services

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

My use of "grouchy" adjective had more to do with "old" than "white." Obviously, I belong to both categories, and I very much like myself. Mainly, I am just making an observation related to demographic reality. U.S. voters over the age of 62 are much more "white" than the groups of 5 year old children I teach. My prediction is that a good deal of the current debate is just going to be like "Huh?" in another 30 years. So, lot of hot air being wasted.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9372
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Warning: WH seeks to limit/deport immigrants using ACA and other gov. services

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

I would note that I teach highly integrated groups of children at extreme ends of the income spectrum, and in both situations what happens is the children end up sorting themselves into groups according to other factors such as looks, intelligence, social skills, and athletic ability.

Also, you youngsters don't know what it is like to grow up in a blatantly truly racist environment, such as metro Detroit in the 1970s. When I was a child I lived in a neighborhood located less than 20 miles from downtown and there was not a single black child attending my elementary school. I only saw black children out the window of a locked car when my father occasionally drove us into the neighborhood where he worked to attend some event such as a circus or children's theater presentation. It actually was kind of a seriously fucked up situation, and I'm sorry if some young white men are currently occasionally getting their feelings hurt due to a degree of backlash, but that's not even remotely the same thing and you are dwelling in some extremely revisionist version of a history I actually experienced if you think that it is.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9372
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Warning: WH seeks to limit/deport immigrants using ACA and other gov. services

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Also, as long as I am on a roll, I would note for the record, that no matter how many times a highly filtered and curated collection is repeatedly looped, it still remains stone truth that the music of the 1980s totally sucked.

Riggerjack
Posts: 3182
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:09 am

Re: Warning: WH seeks to limit/deport immigrants using ACA and other gov. services

Post by Riggerjack »

Also, you youngsters don't know what it is like to grow up in a blatantly truly racist environment, such as metro Detroit in the 1970s. When I was a child I lived in a neighborhood located less than 20 miles from downtown and there was not a single black child attending my elementary school. I only saw black children out the window of a locked car when my father occasionally drove us into the neighborhood where he worked to attend some event such as a circus or children's theater presentation. It actually was kind of a seriously fucked up situation, and I'm sorry if some young white men are currently occasionally getting their feelings hurt due to a degree of backlash, but that's not even remotely the same thing and you are dwelling in some extremely revisionist version of a history I actually experienced if you think that it is.
And for balance, let me describe my own place in history at the time.

I was in the kind of nieghborhoods you describe driving through with your doors locked. Only in West coast towns, so far fewer blacks, more Asians, Natives, and Latinos, and lots of whites. I have lived in distant logging towns too. Like, walk a half mile to where the station wagon would pick me up, drive to the next village, pick up 2 more kids, go to town to get dropped off to wait for a school bus, to go to the next town to pick up more kids, to go to the next town to go to high school. In 20 different schools, in 5 states, from San Diego to Fairbanks, I never once had a white only class. I even attended a majority black middle school, the only one with a campus cop, and thought it was nice, all in. I never experienced the racial tensions you describe until joining the army, and seeing it in northern urban types, both black and white.

So while I agree you grew up segregated, the real separation seems to me to be economic and class, and is merely superficially race based. If you think back to those nieghborhoods, were they really exclusively black? I only ask, because I have never seen a racially segregated neighborhood. Even reservations have other races.

But I was where I was, and you were where you were. It's hard to reconcile the two. My experience was simply different from yours.

RealPerson
Posts: 875
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:33 pm

Re: Warning: WH seeks to limit/deport immigrants using ACA and other gov. services

Post by RealPerson »

Crazylemon wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:20 am
In the UK your immigrant spouse is only allowed in if you meet an earnings cap.
I don't understand the logic of requiring a minimum income to bring over a spouse, while allowing hundreds of thousands of penniless refugees to flood Europe. It seems to me to be a basic human right for an EU citizen to bring his/her spouse back home, regardless of income.

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 15908
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 77
Contact:

Re: Warning: WH seeks to limit/deport immigrants using ACA and other gov. services

Post by jacob »

It seems that the perceptions of how easy it is to move to another country might be skewed a bit by digital nomads, etc. moving to Thailand or bumming around Europe or Asia for a few years. Hence the general idea that you can just move to X, Y, or Z... In reality, as Scott2 points out it's not that easy. Nomads are the exception: They are almost surely all staying on a sequence of 90-day tourist visas; and they get their income from online businesses registered in their home country allowing them to technically get around the "no-work" stipulation of a tourist visa. Others might be retirees essentially doing the same thing but receiving a pension. In either case, all have to do visa runs every 90 days. If you're willing($) to do this, and you trust this [arrangement] will keep working, you can indeed live almost everywhere. If you want a more permanent solution e.g. you'd like to maybe rent something other than airbnb; get health insurance other than international; or perhaps open a bank/broker account in the country of residency, you're looking at a much higher barrier of entry.

($) Or if you fly home anyways 4-6 times a year for holidays and your relatives' birthdays you might not even notice.

Some countries are famous for catering to permanent expats. They will have certain [permanent/long-term] visa programs that require you to deposit typically $50-300k in a bank CD or buy a piece of property worth at least [similar amount], etc. We're talking places like Panama, Malta, Belize, Cayman Islands, ... Almost all countries (including western) will have a business development or investor type of visa, but now we're talking $500k-1M for the former and $1-3M for the latter. IOW, those are just about out of reach for the typical ERE budget. Basically you need to be a multimillionaire---and this is how rich Chinese buy into Canada and Elon Musk became a New Zealander. Other ways include being highly educated and receiving a job offer but those visas are always tied to a specific job at a specific company.

In response to Riggerjack (and RealPerson), modern immigration policies (since 2000 when the liberal world order more or less peaked and location freedom began to decline) are essentially based on "malignance tempered by incompetence" and driven by parochial xenophobes (who seem to make up 20% of any population anywhere) who occasionally gets to make a political deal about their favorite hobby horse---hating on people who look different from themselves. Incompetence is NOT a good thing in politics. The incompetence part means unintended side-effects in the form of collateral damage(*). Such laws are almost always intended to keep out refugees or economic migrants or cater to some cultural or racist issue. The problem is that unlike the "good old days in the 1930s", it's generally unconstitutional (or at least very bad form) to write laws that explicitly target specific demographics (see e.g., Nuremberg Laws) so instead politicians try to make up other "rules" that are intended to capture 90% of the perceived problem... but then also has 10% of unintended (but often ignored) collateral damage. For example, the reason we could not go to Denmark was due to a rule that stipulated a requirement for >51% attachment to the country that was written to prevent chain-migration from the ME via arranged marriages to distant family members as soon as daughters turned 18. But one could not write the immigration rule explicitly like that, so instead it became the "51% attachment rule". This solved most of the (small but well publicized) problem but it also affected professional expats working for international companies who happened to have married locally while stationed abroad. IIRC, I read somewhere that the rule unintentionally caused problems for ~1000 expats (me being one of them). It was only when some semi-famous, very rich, and well-connected Danish expat found that he could not return with his Chinese wife that politicians/newspapers began to take it seriously. Otherwise, it "only" affects lone individuals (like me) who just quietly vanish/leave/don't get noticed. There has been similar messes over the past 15 years but it seems that sanity is slowly being restored. Whereas in the US the insanity is just beginning.

(*) The UK was mentioned above. In fact I know a FIRE guy from the UK who married a Canadian while living in Canada and upon moving back to the UK found that he had to get a random job for N months to satisfy some work-requirement stipulation even though he was FI insofar he wanted to bring his wife with. Because obviously you can only support someone if you have a job :roll: The rules had not been written with the special case of FI in mind.

When rules are introduced in the style of "malign incompetence" it usually takes a few years to figure out the collateral damage and change the rule. (This of course just moves the damage somewhere else.) A few years might not seem like a lot, but a few years can be big deal when deciding on career, retirement, home purchase, ... Therefore shutting off news etc. is a bad strategy. This is how e.g. some people from the Trump base famously (of course depending on what news you read) has seen their non-documented and therefore illegal (but otherwise upstanding member of the community) spouses deported because they naively figured only "the bad hombres" would get deported. Key here is that rules apply to everybody and are written in such a way to leave a lot of discretion (see DHS statement above) to the individual case worker. If the clerk has a bad day, you could be railroaded. IOW, there's an enormous amount of extreme event-risk (also see comment by CS). This means that it's hard to make long term plans.

Plans, therefore, change accordingly. Therein lies the navigation problem.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9372
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Warning: WH seeks to limit/deport immigrants using ACA and other gov. services

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

@Riggerjack:

I agree that we all bring our own unique experiences to bear on these matters.

First off I would note that even the scant difference of a decade in our respective ages did make a difference. By the time I was 15 in 1980, there were some black and some Asian kids in my school in an a more affluent suburban neighborhood. When I was 5 in 1970, there were none. And, in fact, my father, lifelong declared Independent, voted for Nixon, and subsequently regretted it, on sole issue of proposal of school busing towards desegregation in metro Detroit, because he didn't want his young daughters bused into Detroit.

And to answer your question, yes I am absolutely certain that those neighborhoods were exclusively black, because some of them, including the one in which I tutored reading last spring still are. In this pre-K through 8th grade school (at least 60 kids in each grade, so at least 600 students total), located just south of 8 mile, I observed maybe 3 children who were not clearly identifiable as black. Two were very young and appeared to be of Hispanic heritage, and one was a white-skinned young teenager whose style was very black.

Also, I had a midlife BF, a fairly conservative black man approximately 10 years older than me, who attended schools in Detroit in the 50s/60s where all the students were black and all of the teachers were white. So, pretty much like Native American Reservation schools in terms of cultural conversion philosophy. Luckily for him, he had the benefit of two parents, a high IQ, musical and athletic talent, plus he was 6'5" and did 500 push-ups every day, so he went to college on athletic scholarship, but still could play in jazz ensemble as side-gig. Another BF, who was the same age as me, although he grew up with only a mother in some projects, lucked out because his neighborhood merged with a Jewish neighborhood, so he landed an academic scholarship into minor Ivy League school and eventually became an award-winning photographer. My point being that due to racism, eventually achieving success was a near thing for both of these men, even given a great deal of inherent human resources and hard work. (Other obvious point being that since at least a simple majority of even my theoretically liberal-leaning female peers are still racist (although many are in denial), I can pick up some fantastic deals on the dating market ;) ) OTOH, the fact that my current BF is a white guy who grew up in Ted Nugent country and voted for Trump, should I think should provide adequate proof that I am completely open opportunity and inclined towards allowing others to form and maintain their own opinions, no matter how wrong-minded. Certainly NOT the case that I agreed with any of my black, brown, green or blue BF's on all matters. For instance, I don't think "White people can't cook for shit." is any more true than "Asian people can't drive for shit." or "Black people don't work for shit."

Lemon
Posts: 261
Joined: Sat May 30, 2015 2:29 am

Re: Warning: WH seeks to limit/deport immigrants using ACA and other gov. services

Post by Lemon »

@realperson

No one said anything makes logical sense. See Jacobs most recent post here. One example of the absurdity in the UK is the Cap is higher than basically all nurses can earn and most (recent Grad) Doctors. Both groups most hospitals are aggressively recruiting from overseas due to shortages. Not being able to bring a spouse...doesn't really then appeal. Doctors aren't even on the shortage list (politics) so have to wait in the Visa queue because total visas for not shortage is also capped. These things don't have to make sense if popular/what people want. More malign incompetence

But Europe isn't lying down on refugees. Hence the games in the mediterranean, pushing countries to remove flag status from NGO boats (so they can't dock with Refugees) etc. Just look at Italian grandstanding on this.
But Refugees have international law that protects them in a way no economic migrant does. No one wants to total flout UN declarations.

I agree with Jacob there does seem to be a perception of it being easier to settle than it is. Even looking at other EU countries even with blood ties you need to meet strict visa requirements (investment as above or be shortage/works/etc.) for about 5 years before you can even get a look ing. Ireland is a bit more relaxed.

CS
Posts: 709
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:24 pm

Re: Warning: WH seeks to limit/deport immigrants using ACA and other gov. services

Post by CS »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:30 am
Also, as long as I am on a roll, I would note for the record, that no matter how many times a highly filtered and curated collection is repeatedly looped, it still remains stone truth that the music of the 1980s totally sucked.
sacrilège!
--

Yeah, movement is not that easy - hence my desire to get that EU passport. I love being here - but things are fine until they're not - and I want a pass to the exit when the shit hits the fan.

ZAFCorrection
Posts: 357
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:49 pm

Re: Warning: WH seeks to limit/deport immigrants using ACA and other gov. services

Post by ZAFCorrection »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:51 am
Also, you youngsters don't know what it is like to grow up in a blatantly truly racist environment,...
This is exactly my point. If a silent or boomer wants to wear a hair shirt because they feel guilty for something they were a part of, go for it. If a POC or other minority is pissed about the fact that they are still crawling out of a multi-generational hole, it completely makes sense. When a 20 or 30-something can't come to terms with the fact that they are white in America, I'm thinking that individual needs to get their shit together.

User avatar
Jean
Posts: 1891
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:49 am
Location: Switzterland

Re: Warning: WH seeks to limit/deport immigrants using ACA and other gov. services

Post by Jean »

The possibility exists that being racist today is the only way to avoid the next generation to grow up in a racist environnement. Most racists are probably racists because they instinctively believe this.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9372
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Warning: WH seeks to limit/deport immigrants using ACA and other gov. services

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

ZAFcorrection wrote: If a silent or boomer wants to wear a hair shirt because they feel guilty for something they were a part of, go for it.
Gen-X here and less guilt, more inability to not speak truth.

Anyways, xenophobia and racism are obviously overlapping concepts, but they are not the same thing. For instance, my second generation Polish heritage maternal great-uncle felt like it was in his self-interest to drop the -ski off the end of his surname when he joined the Detroit police force in the 1930s. And the all white suburban school district I attended as a child did have its own subtle internal class or tribal system, in which the poorest children were mostly 2nd generation out-of-Appalachia, and having an Italian last name and a father who wasn't a "real engineer" meant that this was likely your end neighborhood rather than your starter neighborhood.

So, in terms of experiencing social discrimination, as opposed to legal discrimination, Jacob would have to be cast back in time to mid-19th century in order to hear derogatory comments such as "Stupid Swede." (Yes, I know he is from Denmark, but modern day xenophobes often can't even differentiate between immigrants from Iran vs. Pakistan, so... )

@Jean:

The first immigrants from Europe to my region were wild French men; fur trappers, explorers and soldiers. They didn't bring any women, so they often inter-married with Native Americans. Apparently, according to record, the children of these unions were often strikingly attractive. Human beings often experience conflict between the benefits of tribal loyalty and the reality that we are an out-breeding species. I believe that individual humans can vary in their inherent tendencies towards either of these modes.

BRUTE
Posts: 3797
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2015 5:20 pm

Re: Warning: WH seeks to limit/deport immigrants using ACA and other gov. services

Post by BRUTE »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:51 am
I'm sorry if some young white men are currently occasionally getting their feelings hurt due to a degree of backlash, but that's not even remotely the same thing and you are dwelling in some extremely revisionist version of a history I actually experienced if you think that it is.
nobody said that it's the same. but this casual anti-white racism is just starting to get annoying. what do human kids call it these days, dog whistle?

slowtraveler
Posts: 722
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:06 pm

Re: Warning: WH seeks to limit/deport immigrants using ACA and other gov. services

Post by slowtraveler »

@Jacob
Regarding difficulty:

The 90 day rule is easy to circumvent with a student Visa in many countries. Malaysia costs much less than 100k with the MM2H program and has infrastructure on par with developed Asian or Western countries. Internet+ Transport were better than California or South Europe, in my experience.

An Eu passport lets you stay anywhere in EU indefinitely. A South American passport lets you stay near indefinitely anywhere in Latin America.

I haven't stayed in Airbnb once this year. Month long rentals are common and of relatively high quality/price where I've stayed. Cheaper yet much better than a hostel.

User avatar
Jean
Posts: 1891
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:49 am
Location: Switzterland

Re: Warning: WH seeks to limit/deport immigrants using ACA and other gov. services

Post by Jean »

@7w5
Wild french men are Always a good bet if you wan't à strikingly attractive Offspring. You don't need to be from an other race for this to be true.

7Wannabe5
Posts: 9372
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Warning: WH seeks to limit/deport immigrants using ACA and other gov. services

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

BRUTE wrote:nobody said that it's the same. but this casual anti-white racism is just starting to get annoying. what do human kids call it these days, dog whistle?
Gotcha, so maybe the problem is that it isn't casual or blatant yet specific enough to be accepted in the spirit in which it was intended? Like maybe the next time I hear my BF repeat something I deem to be idiotic he heard on the radio I will call him a Grouchy Old Fried-Pickle-Eating-McPilgrim?

User avatar
Mister Imperceptible
Posts: 1669
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:18 pm

Re: Warning: WH seeks to limit/deport immigrants using ACA and other gov. services

Post by Mister Imperceptible »

ZAFCorrection wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:01 am
So exciting that as a white American my future cultural options are self-hating, daal-spooning cultural vampire or MAGA hat guy. Might have to go flag theory just to get away from the toxic level of self-consciousness.
@7w5, brute

I just looked up what “dog whistle” is on urban dictionary....yeah....I just try to remind people who say things like “White people are ________” what it would sound like if they changed it to “black people are ________.” That the left is normalizing this language is a sort of perfidious psychological subterfuge. (I think this is what Jordan Peterson means when he talks about “not ceding the lingual territory.”)

And when I state this, and tell people I won’t submit to the self-loathing, I am denounced as a neo-Nazi tiki-torch-waving MAGA hat guy. Cool. And some people think this didn’t push white people to vote for Trump.

Those darned swing states of Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin, with their long legacy of slavery and voting for Obama :roll:

Post Reply