COVID topic vol 2

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Ego
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Re: COVID topic vol 2

Post by Ego »

chenda wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:40 am


What narrative ?
I could post a thousand examples where the media framed a person espousing thoughtful, mild criticism of our covid response as a Trump supporting, tobacco chewing, capitol invading, inbred, idiot.

It is no surprise that....
Frita wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:39 am
Frita: Teen, wearing a mask over just one’s chin is a “chin diaper.” What do you call it if it’s over the mouth but not the nose?

Teen (without missing a beat in flat, Garfield-like affect): a Republican
I am not hammering on Frita or the Teen and I am not commenting on the politics. I just think it is amazing how well the mindfuck has taken hold considering obvious evidence to the contrary. For instance, in the US Naomi Wolf is one of the loudest voices speaking against the covid response. And in Europe you see things like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIuEh-cm6J0

They don't appear to be extremists to me. Except for the beat box guy. Beat boxers always try to take over and impose their nonsense on everyone.

7Wannabe5
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Re: COVID topic vol 2

Post by 7Wannabe5 »

Maybe I would be more inclined to buy the Covid-lockdowns equal tyrannical government power grab argument if it weren’t for the case that I’ve read historical accounts of government responses to other pandemics such as the last great plague in London. In that situation, if one member of a household tested positive, the entire household was put under lock and guard. This policy and many others did not continue after the plague burned out.

I am not privy to her reasoning, but in my state the governor is not choosing to return to lock-down even though cases have sky-rocketed, and I think this is because she is trying to act in sync with the will of the people in a new landscape where the vast majority of those at risk have been availed of the option to be vaccinated.

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Re: COVID topic vol 2

Post by jacob »

7Wannabe5 wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:35 am
I am not privy to her reasoning, but in my state the governor is not choosing to return to lock-down even though cases have sky-rocketed, and I think this is because she is trying to act in sync with the will of the people in a new landscape where the vast majority of those at risk have been availed of the option to be vaccinated.
That's my attitude too. I've heard it described in terms to the effect that "given the availability to effectively bulletproof vaccines to everyone who wants them, the pandemic is morally over" with the only people still going to the hospitals/morgues being those who deliberately decided that the risk of not getting vaccinated was worth it.

(Insert various disclaimers about those who for one or another want to but cannot get vaccinated. Also the timing because full voluntary vaccination won't be over until June.)

chenda
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Re: COVID topic vol 2

Post by chenda »

jacob wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:55 am
with the only people in the hospitals/morgues being those who deliberately decided that the risk of not getting vaccinated was worth it.
Is that really true though because my understanding - correct me if I'm wrong - vaccines are not 100% effective, especially with variants ? So the irresponsibly non-vaccinted are still a threat to the responsibily vaccinated.

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Re: COVID topic vol 2

Post by jacob »

chenda wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:04 am
Is that really true though because my understanding - correct me if I'm wrong - vaccines are not 100% effective, especially with variants ? So the irresponsibly non-vaccinted are still a threat to the responsibily vaccinated.
The 30% or so who don't want the vaccine will become a de facto reservoir for the virus which will become endemic because 30% is not high enough for herd immunity. It didn't have to be this way but this is how it turned out.

Many things can happen. New variants will evolve (they already have) or the virus can burn out in the remaining susceptible population and achieve herd immunity by infection followed by recovery or removal. The new variants might be more infectious or more virulent because they have to jump further or they might not need that since vaccine-resistance tends to run in philosophical bubbles. The variants might also become more sneaky (less virulent) with longer incubation periods or require less particles for an infection. They might find children or people under 50 to be much better vectors. Nature finds a way. Humans just changed the game somewhat. Rinse and repeat. Now that the vaccine exists, there will be [regular] booster shots developed to deal with new variants, similar to the flu/flu-vaccine.

Miss Lonelyhearts
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Re: COVID topic vol 2

Post by Miss Lonelyhearts »

Wall Street Journal wrote:The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has identified a small cohort of approximately 5,800 cases of Covid-19 infection among more than 66 million Americans who have completed a full course of vaccination.
CDC Identifies Small Group of Covid-19 Infections Among Fully Vaccinated Patients

This proportion seems very favorable to me!

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Ego
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Re: COVID topic vol 2

Post by Ego »

Miss Lonelyhearts wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 3:25 pm
CDC Identifies Small Group of Covid-19 Infections Among Fully Vaccinated Patients

This proportion seems very favorable to me!
Agreed.... somewhat. The older and less heathy one is, the more it makes sense to vaccinate. OTOH, considering so many of the decisions made during the pandemic used the belt-and-suspenders precautionary-principle, it is surprising that more people are not applying that same metric to the vaccination of young healthy people. Especially now that we have two examples where the vaccines are not perfect. We never expected perfection but coercing young people to stick themselves is now a calculation that is not cut and dry.

Synthesize
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Re: COVID topic vol 2

Post by Synthesize »

I am one of the young healthy people who is on the fence about getting the Pfizer vaccine or not. I have been waiting for the non-emergency approval from the CDC with some longer term data. I do my best to make data driven decisions but the data on this one is fuzzy. I am naturally apprehensive to be first in line for new vaccines, drugs, etc given that you do not get a do over with your health. Is it known whether getting the vaccine prevents you from being a carrier to the unvaccinated? I see many people passing the decision off to saving others, but I haven’t seen any definitive answer on if this is true or not. Are there any potential long term side effects from mRNA vaccines? I am fine with 2 days of feeling awful but I am not okay with auto immune issues in a year or two. Is it really in my best interest to get vaccinated given that I am healthy and young? I admit I would like to no longer worry about covid but don’t have the long term reassurance from studies proving that it won’t cause more harm via the cure.

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Jean
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Re: COVID topic vol 2

Post by Jean »

My main concerns are female sterility caused by the protein for which mRNA is the plan, and the very small likelyhood that a retrovirus might happen to copy the mRNA in the DNA and make any yet unknown side effect permanent. Which has the potential to be very unfortunate. If I had to put a number on how much money I'de need to be paid to accept this risk, it would be several billions. OTOH, i accepted the risk of getting infected by a coronavirus a few million generation ago.

Optimal_Solution
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Re: COVID topic vol 2

Post by Optimal_Solution »

Jean wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:01 pm
My main concerns are female sterility caused by the protein for which mRNA is the plan, and the very small likelyhood that a retrovirus might happen to copy the mRNA in the DNA and make any yet unknown side effect permanent.
Shouldn't you be just as concerned about the same thing happening when you catch COVID? The vaccine proteins are based on the virus, after all.

Every potential risk of getting vaccinated needs to be weighed against the known and unknown risks inherent to catching COVID. Nothing in life is risk free, and eventually catching COVID is almost certain without vaccination.

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Jean
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Re: COVID topic vol 2

Post by Jean »

Yes, but it will be easier to accept if it happens because of a natural virus, than if it happens because i let someone inject something in me.
I'de rather die because i'm weak than because i'm fool.

Scott 2
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Re: COVID topic vol 2

Post by Scott 2 »

jacob wrote:
Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:55 am
I've heard it described in terms to the effect that "given the availability to effectively bulletproof vaccines to everyone who wants them, the pandemic is morally over"
Getting my second shot Monday. I expect to be masked and distancing in public for a long time. Ignoring the vulnerable who cannot vaccinate, I don't want to harm the vaccine decliners either. It's a small effort, one I really don't mind.

From what I've read on the mRNA vaccines, I don't have any safety concerns. Of course, I get the flu vaccine every year too. Once I understood the implications of herd immunity, I've always felt obligated to do my part.

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Bankai
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Re: COVID topic vol 2

Post by Bankai »

Russell Brand on covid passports:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGgvgKE0n8o

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Bankai
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Re: COVID topic vol 2

Post by Bankai »

Oxford University study showing that covid itself increases chance of a blod clot much more than vaccines:

https://osf.io/a9jdq/
These data show that the incidence of CVT is significantly increased after COVID-19, and greater than that observed with BNT162b2 and RNA-1273 COVID-19 vaccines. The risk of CVT following COVID-19 is also higher than the latest estimate from the European Medicines Agency for the incidence associated with ChAdOx1 nCoV-19 vaccine (5.0 per million people, 95% CI 4.3–5.8). Although requiring replication and corroboration, the present data highlight the risk of serious thrombotic events in COVID-19, and can help contextualizethe risks and benefits of vaccination in this regard.

Campitor
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Re: COVID topic vol 2

Post by Campitor »

Bankai wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:21 pm
Oxford University study showing that covid itself increases chance of a blod clot much more than vaccines:

https://osf.io/a9jdq/
https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/obesit ... id-19.html

Obesity Worsens Outcomes from COVID-19
Adults with excess weight are at even greater risk during the COVID-19 pandemic:

Having obesity increases the risk of severe illness from COVID-19. People who are overweight may also be at increased risk.
Having obesity may triple the risk of hospitalization due to a COVID-19 infection.
Obesity is linked to impaired immune function.2,3
Obesity decreases lung capacity and reserve and can make ventilation more difficult.4
A study of COVID-19 cases suggests that risks of hospitalization, intensive care unit admission, invasive mechanical ventilation, and death are higher with increasing BMI.5
The increased risk for hospitalization or death was particularly pronounced in those under age 65. 5
More than 900,000 adult COVID-19 hospitalizations occurred in the United States between the beginning of the pandemic and November 18, 2020. Models estimate that 271,800 (30.2%) of these hospitalizations were attributed to obesity.6
Considering that the majority of COVID complication appears to coincide with obesity, it's not surprising that blood clots would spike for those with severe covid symptoms. Does the Oxford study account for this? Comparing the metrics for obese covid infectees against a healthy unvaccinated population will not convince those sitting on the fence. Disclaimer - I've gotten the pfizer vaccine - both doses. I'm not an anti-vaxxer.

Edit: I had zero symptoms after getting both doses. Only a mild soreness on the 2nd shot that lasted less than 4 hours.

ducknald_don
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Re: COVID topic vol 2

Post by ducknald_don »

Campitor wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 4:44 am
Comparing the metrics for obese covid infectees against a healthy unvaccinated population will not convince those sitting on the fence.
What makes you think we have a healthy unvaccinated vs unhealthy vaccinated population.

Campitor
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Re: COVID topic vol 2

Post by Campitor »

ducknald_don wrote:
Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:29 am
What makes you think we have a healthy unvaccinated vs unhealthy vaccinated population.
I'm assuming those who are on the fence about getting a Covid vaccination are young and healthy - they haven't lived long enough for their lifestyle choices to have a significant impact on their biology and are worried about taking a vaccine that was fast tracked and hasn't undergone any long term trials.

And since the Oxford study talks about blood clotting, that's not an uncommon occurrence for the obese who also happen to be one of the biggest groups that suffer from severe covid symptoms. If the Oxford study corrects for obesity then the actual risk of clotting caused by covid versus covid vaccine will be a more accurate assessment.

How many otherwise healthy adults (no previous health issues or obesity) have experienced covid blood clots versus healthy persons who have gotten covid vaccine? It could be that blood clotting on either side (vaccinated versus covid infected) is caused by obesity and not covid or the vaccine.

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fiby41
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Re: COVID topic vol 2

Post by fiby41 »

Online registrations started for everyone above 18 wanting to get vaccinated after 1st May.

Unempleyment back to pre-covid level after flirting with 40%

Lemon
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Re: COVID topic vol 2

Post by Lemon »

Jacob's NNT/NNH summary is in essence what matters here. In almost all situations vaccine >>>>>>>>> COVID infection in terms of which to pick.

The UK decision to avoid AZ in the <30s is reasonable as for that group 1) COVID is normally mild and 2) there is no need as there are alternatives sufficient to cover that group who are back of the queue anyway.

True these vaccines were emergency authorised. But we have the in vivo experiment of millions of jabs in arms. This is the reason we now know about these rare clots. Is it impossible that there are other rarer or more latent side effects? Possibly. But that is also true of wild type COVID infection. And much more likely. Just look at long COVID numbers. I would be much more worried about that than vaccine side effects. I have be dosed up with Pfizer. Side effects: classic rash and mild shoulder pain that didn't stop same day workout.

I would be cautious about calling the pandemic morally over when vaccine availability is not total and there are certain groups refusing in much higher numbers. We have a major issues with poor take up in BAME patients for multiple complex social and cultural factors. This is also causing a lot of controversy when it comes to vaccine passports. Vaccine refusal is rarely about 'facts'

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Re: COVID topic vol 2

Post by Viktor K »

Antibodies from natural infection do not have high levels against the RBD. This could be because the RBD epitope may be hidden to prevent host immune recognition. The less robust and variable antibody response to natural infection suggests immunity acquired by natural infection may not be as strong as that from vaccination. “We should not assume that previously infected individuals are immune or that they cannot transmit the virus,” write the authors.

Thus, vaccination induces a more robust antibody response, and even people who have been previously infected may benefit from the vaccine.
https://www.news-medical.net/amp/news/2 ... ction.aspx

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