Going without Healthcare

Health, Fitness, Insurance, ...
Michael_00005
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu May 04, 2017 12:26 pm
Location: Charlotte, NC

Going without Healthcare

Post by Michael_00005 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:46 pm

Questions:
1. Has anyone else researched or considered "Going without Healthcare"?
2. If 95% of what is currently offered in healthcare is worthless to you, do you still pay for it?
3. Flaws in logic after excluding personal assumptions on system incompetence, and health as it relates to lifestyle?

Basis:
A little background on why this could make sense for some people. I follow a WFPBD (whole food plant based diet). Let's NOT go off topic and debate diet though, that is not the subject. So basically it's known you can completely avoid heart disease and all it's complications, diabetes, and greatly reduce your odds of cancer, autoimmune diseases, and every other chronic aliment. Reference: "Uprooting the Leading Causes of Death", found on YouTube, if you care to better understand the studies.

After researching healthcare in the US for several years, I've come to the conclusion that healthcare is about making money, not making people healthy. They love to give drugs, ideally for a lifetime, so as to collect income stream. Drugs don't fix the problem, at best they suppress symptoms. Chronic aliments are 90% lifestyle caused, hence corrected by lifestyle. My personal thoughts on the hospital is that aside from things like gun shot wounds, car accidents, broken bones and some diagnosis it's 90+% incompetence. It's a little bit like going down to the boxing gym to have a tooth that is giving you pain knocked out. Sure they might knock it out, but they will likely take a few extra teeth throughout the process.

For example, If I were to ever get cancer, I would never go in for traditional treatment. 1st option would be to go 100% raw food, 2nd health center, 3rd would be to do nothing. There are 2 or 3 cancers they're successful with, like skin cancer where I believe they simply cut it out. That would be OK, but chemo - never. Also there are some cases where going to a health center like "Hippocrates Health Institute" could be justified, but those are not covered by insurance anyway. So my thought is, what's the point of paying for insurance when it's 95% worthless? It seems the only real threat to personal income would be an accident, car or bicycle for example.

-- to better understand the cancer comment reference "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Nd5HnLOIKw
Last edited by Michael_00005 on Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:03 pm, edited 3 times in total.

prognastat
Posts: 113
Joined: Fri May 04, 2018 8:30 pm

Re: Going without Healthcare

Post by prognastat » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:29 pm

It's a waste of money...until you need it.

User avatar
Kriegsspiel
Posts: 525
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:05 pm

Re: Going without Healthcare

Post by Kriegsspiel » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:54 pm

Raw food definitely cures cancer, just ask Steve Jobs.

IlliniDave
Posts: 2054
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:46 pm

Re: Going without Healthcare

Post by IlliniDave » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:06 pm

I agree that staying healthy falls to a large extent on you via behavior, but sometimes things go wrong without a cause you have control of. If you're broke, then you can walk away from a huge bill. If you've got a pile of wealth, you can lose a huge chunk, maybe all of it. When you have money the calculus includes: how much is it worth on an ongoing basis to protect your assets? We make basically the same calculation every time we make a decision how much risk to take with our investments. Ultimately it's up to you and your appetite for risk (and how much faith you have in the Youtube video).

Because I'm at an age where it's increasingly likely I'll encounter things that could cripple, or wipe me out, financially, I pay the price. Actually, what I believe is the biggest potential risk to my retirement is getting caught w/out medical insurance, and I value my retirement highly.

Michael_00005
Posts: 69
Joined: Thu May 04, 2017 12:26 pm
Location: Charlotte, NC

Re: Going without Healthcare

Post by Michael_00005 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:16 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:54 pm
Raw food definitely cures cancer, just ask Steve Jobs.
In some old spiritual books there is a saying "Thy breaths are numbered", death comes to all! People who think this way, naturally differ from main stream medicine. If a person believes a doctor can help them live longer they should go that route. Of course people also die after having treatment, and even from the treatment, so it's really meaningless unless you look at averages. The link at the bottom (original post) talks about lengthening life through treatment, there are studies showing the results. You would not be impressed with the results of drugs.

But we go off topic here...


@IlliniDave »
how much is it worth on an ongoing basis to protect your assets?
No doubt this will be important in the upcoming decision. regarding "faith you have in the Youtube video", it's more than that; when you truly feel healthy, you look it, and know it. I'm also at that age where chronic aliments are all too common in western society. We are on the same page here, but I would change it a little to: "I value my health highly".
Last edited by Michael_00005 on Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.

prognastat
Posts: 113
Joined: Fri May 04, 2018 8:30 pm

Re: Going without Healthcare

Post by prognastat » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:30 pm

You do realise that it's not only about chronic illness right?

What if you fall and break something, get a serious infection or pretty much anything that isn't affected by lifestyle?

I mean if you want to go for it, but I wouldn't unless I had enough of a FIRE stash to cover my SWR and enough to cover medical bills.

Augustus
Posts: 446
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:15 am

Re: Going without Healthcare

Post by Augustus » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:04 pm

Depends on your assets. If you have lots to lose, you insure. Health insurance is less about access to doctors, you can pay that out of pocket, and more about not going bankrupt if you get hit by a car, get cancer, get injured, etc. It's kind of like driving, I'm not worried I'm going to crash the car, i drive like a grandma most of the time, it's other people on the road I'm worried about.

steelerfan
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:33 pm

Re: Going without Healthcare

Post by steelerfan » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:23 pm

I think people should be free to opt out of coverage with a caveat. The rub is the hippocratic oath means that people without coverage historically have used the emergency room as their pcp and they are not turned away. This must stop. Treating the uninsured is a key reason why healthcare costs are out of control. I always hear from young healthy people at work stating that they don't need insurance. Definitely they are paying a portion of their premium to cover older sicker people in the pool. But healthy people catch diseases and suffer accidents. If they opt out of insurance, the doctors should not admit them through the front door or if they did they should put the uninsured in a separate place away from the paying customers. Take the uninsured guy who wiped out in the crotch rocket to the low priority dying place. Maybe volunteer medical staff can attend to some but it should in no way burden the insured.

I am all for single payer medicare for all insurance coverage and believe in the concept of a mandate - which was created by the conservative Heritage Foundation. However with the current political climate, that is going by the wayside with skimpy policies that exclude many things priced for a younger healthy clientele. This leads to higher premiums for the main pool, preexisting condition exclusions and caps. There is no free lunch. There needs to be consequences for going without healthcare or buying minimal policies. If you are betting you don't need it, the paying pool does not need to subsidize any failed gamble on yourself. If we ever actually turned people away, coverage percentages would skyrocket. This applies to everyone, including innocent infants and children although doctors would likely come up with a way to help the very young. Maybe americans would need to go overseas to get emergency treatment. There would heartbreaking stories from such a draconian policy but there are plenty of people right now who are facing this reality and we shouldn't have to pick and choose who we avert our gaze from. It should be harsh and uniform and across the board. Finally, politicians should have no better coverage than what is available on the market and they should pay the market cost for it.

George the original one
Posts: 4535
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:28 am
Location: Wettest corner of Orygun

Re: Going without Healthcare

Post by George the original one » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:52 pm

Do not conflate health insurance with health care.

+1 for steelerfan.

Clarice
Posts: 94
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:45 pm
Location: California

Re: Going without Healthcare

Post by Clarice » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:07 pm

@Michael_00005:

To answer your questions:
1. Yes;
2. Yes;
3. I don't get your question.

I agree with your view of healthcare. They bait you with 5% and when you show up shove down your throat another 95%. It's up to you to separate wheat from chaff. However, here is a random list of conditions, for which modern medicine has a few grains of wheat: bona fide bacterial infection, broken bones, appendicitis, volvulus (google it, happens more often to men that to women), end-stage cancer (you would want morphine, wouldn't you?).
To pay or not to pay? That is the question. Not medical though. As a finance guy you might be in a good position to assess your chances. The tail risk is very unpleasant though...

Jean
Posts: 451
Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:49 am

Re: Going without Healthcare

Post by Jean » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:41 am

If you get it by a car, ain't the driver paying for it?

IlliniDave
Posts: 2054
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:46 pm

Re: Going without Healthcare

Post by IlliniDave » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:45 am

Michael_00005 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:16 pm
@IlliniDave »
how much is it worth on an ongoing basis to protect your assets?
No doubt this will be important in the upcoming decision. regarding "faith you have in the Youtube video", it's more than that; when you truly feel healthy, you look it, and know it. I'm also at that age where chronic aliments are all too common in western society. We are on the same page here, but I would change it a little to: "I value my health highly".
I value my health highly too (higher than retirement), it's just that I'm wealthy enough that I could arguably "self-insure" and pay out of pocket for nearly any reasonable medical care I can imagine given my current starting point. If those costs excur significantly above average and occur prior to Medicare age I'd get the medical care. The decision for me is not cost of insurance versus potentially losing needed medical care, it's cost of insurance versus potentially losing FI. The primacy of getting the needed medical intervention is implicit.

ThisDinosaur
Posts: 806
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:31 am

Re: Going without Healthcare

Post by ThisDinosaur » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:03 am

+1steelerfan
The US has decided as a country that we are socialist enough to demand healthcare as a right, but not socialist enough to demand they pay for it. So those of us who pay get charged extra for all the other people who don't.

@Michael_00005 should be pleased to know that the most effective changes to western medicine in the last 100-200 years have all been advances in naturopathic medicine. Most widely used antibiotics are natural substances that mircoorganisms use to kill eachother. Vaccines are just controlled exposure to [components of] the infectious organism. Let the body's immune system do all the heavy lifting. Pain relievers like aspirin and opioids also come from plant toxins.

But WFPBD diet isn't going to do anything if you have cancer. The antioxidants in your vegetables are going to protect the cancer cells just as well as your other cells. The reason antibiotics work is because they are more toxic to bacteria than to humans. There is at least a billion years of biochemical evolution between you and the bacteria. The cancer evolved from *you* yesterday. So finding a chemical substance that is more toxic to the cancer than to the rest of you is way harder. Western medicine is not great at that, but naturopathic and diet based treatments are even worse.

Farm_or
Posts: 398
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2016 8:57 am
Contact:

Re: Going without Healthcare

Post by Farm_or » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:04 am

I love it when someone is brave enough to stretch the boundaries. That is the theme of ere.

A bloated system is ripe with corruption. Usually in the name of "helping children" or "feeding the poor". After all, nobody can challenge that nobility?

The big picture here is the dichotomy of responsibility and authority. Every body wants the freedom to consume a dozen glazed donuts every day, but they want somebody else to foot the bill for the ultimate and chronic consequences. When the populace is confounded with that reality, they be like " wait a minute! I'm tired of suffering your consequences, so I am taking away your freedom! "

Jason
Posts: 1240
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:37 am

Re: Going without Healthcare

Post by Jason » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:31 am

I recently drove through a lower income/poverty area. I stopped the car and took it in, thinking about my time living in such an area. I went home determined to find $100 to invest in my "never going back" determination. When I started going through the investing process, looking at what we had, I realized it was virtually impossible for me to "go back" unless one of two things happened (1) a full blown, brother-can-you-spare a dime depression; (2) A Stephen Hawking black hole health event.

The OP poster has legitimate points about the system but that's irrelevant. Human beings are not microwave ovens and health insurance cannot be discussed as though you are debating taking on an extended warranty i.e. meticulous personal maintenance will stave off deterioration and severe damage or loss will not prove catastrophic.

suomalainen
Posts: 343
Joined: Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:49 pm

Re: Going without Healthcare

Post by suomalainen » Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:05 pm

It has nothing to do with hippocratic oath (do no harm). Hospitals/Emergency rooms cannot turn away patients by federal law. For those of you thinking this is a socialism or liberal/conservative issue, said law was passed at the height of libtardism in...wait for it...1986?! Anyway, they'll give you emergency care, but I don't think that includes stuff like cancer care or dialysis or the like. It's like "get you stable" type care.

As to OP's question, yes you can always just die while feeling smug about your lifestyle choices, but if you prefer to live, I suggest getting modern healthcare when you need it, which may require purchasing health insurance before you need the healthcare.

EDIT: See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency ... _Labor_Act

User avatar
7Wannabe5
Posts: 3663
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:03 am

Re: Going without Healthcare

Post by 7Wannabe5 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:37 pm

I rarely use the healthcare system even though I do have insurance with only a $400 deductible. Downside is it looks like I am going to end up with a weird scar because I didn't get stitches when a window sash fell on my finger a few weeks ago. I think I am tough enough to take myself out if/when necessary. Getting over the fear of death is the ultimate freedom.

IlliniDave
Posts: 2054
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:46 pm

Re: Going without Healthcare

Post by IlliniDave » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:00 pm

suomalainen wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:05 pm
Anyway, they'll give you emergency care, but I don't think that includes stuff like cancer care or dialysis or the like. It's like "get you stable" type care.
If you are sufficiently broke Medicaid will cover the more routine stuff, but Medicaid requires both low income and nearly all assets be liquidated first.

jacob
Site Admin
Posts: 10030
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:38 pm
Location: USA, Zone 5b, Koppen Dfa, Elev. 620ft, Walkscore 73
Contact:

Re: Going without Healthcare

Post by jacob » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:41 pm

I think of paying for health insurance as buying a cap on the downside. IOW, it's like buying a put option on your health [care cost] which you are effectively shorting just by being alive. It's a way to pay out a steady cashflow to put a finite limit on potentially infinite losses.

Without the put option, the downside is potentially infinite: either death or bankruptcy.

So that's why I never go without it. The US health care market system is effectively borked. Prices are extremely inefficient, that is, practically arbitrary. Nobody will tell you what the price is upfront and prices are arbitrarily billed after the fact. You can get hit with $80 aspirins, five-figure MRI bills, or drive-by doctoring for trivial stuff. It's not easy or rather practically impossible to solicit 3 competing offers for a complicated treatment when you're 7+ on the pain scale. Imagine getting competing contractor bids for a full basement renovation while you're hitting yourself in the head with a hammer ... oh and you have a three day deadline to find and get them, literally, while you keep hitting yourself with that hammer. So ... buying health insurance---the put option---is a very good idea.

Unless you can stoically accept the risk that you might die of cancer at age 51 ... or live to a ripe old age without complications ... or die at 37 because you didn't want to risk ruining years of savings over what would have been a simple fix only it had been possible to make an informed decision before having to throw down half of year's worth of earnings because you're not completely sure whether it's just the worst stomach ache ever or something that might kill you.

If you can, I salute your courage.

Otherwise ... the most probable outcome is to hold out as long as possible... then cry uncle and go to the ER ... proceed to get ruined by crazy billing .. then go on medicare, hopefully not too late.

Clarice
Posts: 94
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2017 4:45 pm
Location: California

Re: Going without Healthcare

Post by Clarice » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:12 pm

@Michael_00005:

The collective wisdom on this forum is pay the effing insurance. Please do. Even if you are filthy rich you don't want to confuse the front desk girls when you show up at the emergency room. They will ask you for the card. Have it. These girls have double-digit IQs. They won't get your take on the healthcare. You'll just cause them to screw up the paperwork... and things can go downhill from there.

Post Reply