Entering Ketosis

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Felipe
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Entering Ketosis

Post by Felipe » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:19 pm

I've tried being vegan again recently and while it helped in some ways (kept losing weight till low 180's/high 170's and gut feels more stable), I feel more tired and easily fatigued. I've also become nearly unable to fast due to more rampant urges to eat. At this point, the thought of eating bread or sugar feels nauseating. I'll keep the increased vegetable uptake, scrap all sugars, grains, and starches. I'll shoot for 2 24 hour fasts a week once I'm feeling stable on it. This is where I'll document my journey.

To begin, I've started a shopping list for the new ingredients I'll need: bacon, eggs, smoked cheddar, smoked lamb, organic chicken. We have a good amount of fats already here: avocados, walnuts, almonds, olive oil, coconut oil, pine nuts, flax, shredded cheese blend, and organic ground beef.

I'll keep it simple: honor my hunger with a focus on fat for satiety, very low carb. Enough protein should come naturally from the foods I'll be eating. I've heard a keto flu takes shape the first few days of ketosis but I won't start hardcore. I'll transition into it and I'm relatively accustomed to fasting so that should help some with the ketone-body as fuel transition.

Making a cobb salad now for my first ketogenic meal.

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BRUTE
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Re: Entering Ketosis

Post by BRUTE » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:28 pm

in brute's experience, going hard and fast into ketosis is easier and leads to less keto flu. fasting, in fact, is one of the best ways. drinking water in salt also helps, keto flu is mostly dehydration through lack of salts/minerals.

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BRUTE
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Re: Entering Ketosis

Post by BRUTE » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:29 pm

also: mmmm, smoked cheddar..

Felipe
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Re: Entering Ketosis

Post by Felipe » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:14 pm

I wasn't expecting that. All I've had besides this salad is 10 fava beans and some greens. I'll go for broke but it's a little trickier when everyone in the house is still vegan till Monday.

I feel happy after eating this salad (bacon, eggs, more bacon, grilled chicken, more bacon, lemon, olive oil, and salt-was going to add tomatoes but realized they have 3 grams of sugar each), it's almost too quick a change in mood. Like coming out of bacon rehab and going straight for a crunchy slice.

I read the reddit on Keto and it seems up to 20 grams of net carbs a day is okay for ketosis.

Where do you get organic or healthy bacon? I haven't found any for cheap. Nitrate free at Costco is the best I've found for a decent price. It seems Costco is the best spot for most of my ingredients.

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Riggerjack
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Re: Entering Ketosis

Post by Riggerjack » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:08 pm

Trader Joe's has uncured, apple smoked bacon. And they sell the ends and pieces for even less.

Beware, it is really good bacon. So good, that when I went for a store brand bacon for convenience, it tasted of chemicals. Now all but the trader Joe's bacon tastes wrong, and of chemicals.

Trader Joe's bacon is so good, I'm spoiled on other bacon, now. It just doesn't interest me.

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jennypenny
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Re: Entering Ketosis

Post by jennypenny » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:33 am

I think 20g is a good place to start to make sure you get deep into ketosis. When I'm running I can do up to 45g and stay deep. It also depends on what you're eating. I'd stay off of nuts if you can until you're through the flu. I also keep the net carb number lower when I eat berries or nuts but let it drift higher when I only eat meat and vegetables. I agree about keeping your salt intake up to help with flu symptoms. Use soy sauce as a condiment.

In a couple of weeks I'm going to try to go back to being a lacto-ovo-vegetarian but still keep my carbs low. I'm not the biggest fan of eggs so we'll see how this goes.

Felipe
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Re: Entering Ketosis

Post by Felipe » Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:43 pm

Went grocery shopping and overall feeling good. Weight at 177.2 lbs this morning dehydrated and cleansed but not fasted. Feel much stronger than a few days ago.

On the food: most of my cheeses and fatty cuts of meat are already near the perfect 80-20-0 ratio of fat-protein-carbs. I realized what made the lamb taste so good in a sandwich was bbq sauce, which is 1/3 sugar by weight. I may end up trying to make some bbq sauce replacement with stevia.

@RiggerJack
Picked up some bacon and smoked cheese at TJ's, excited to try some later. I saw sugar in the ingredients but it says 0 grams of sugar in the nutrition label so I can assume it's under .49grams of sugar per serving. Hopefully less. Thanks for the suggestion.

@JennyPenny
I already got my first headache but salty water made it disappear.

Interesting advice about the nuts. Where I looked it says the magnesium and micronutrients in nuts tends to help but you're more experienced than I here. How are you able to get more carbs with vegetables and meat than berries? Non-starchy vegetables tend to have a low amount of carbs.

I thought it was just Brute and me so it's comforting to know more are employing ketosis.

@Brute
Do you smoke your own cheeses?

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BRUTE
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Re: Entering Ketosis

Post by BRUTE » Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:12 pm

the thing with nuts is that it's pretty easy to binge on them, and they can really only be eaten in limited amounts on keto. depends on the type of nut, too, but brute is bad at moderation. so he finds it easier to never eat nuts than to count them.

brute does not smoke his own cheese, he merely buys it at TJ like all the humans here.

for reference, pretty much all cheese (or dairy, really) has a bit of sugar in it. after all, lactose is a sugar (-ose == sugar: sucrose, glucose, fructose, lactose). but brute has eaten in excess of 1lb of cheese in one sitting and never even started to fall out of ketosis. so either the amount is small enough not to matter, or lactose is metabolized differently. there is definite evidence that fructose, for example, is metabolized very differently from glucose. might be that lactose in the non-lactose-intolerant (brute is extremely lactose-tolerant) has its own metabolic pathway.

apparently there are parts of lactose that are not digested in the stomach and go into the colon, where bacteria can consume them. if the right species of bacteria don't live there, they can ferment and cause gas/bloating, similar to indigestible fiber. in additions, some humans lack (enough) of the enzyme lactase, which will deconstruct lactose, also causing problems.

possibly, lactose is simply indigestible in all humans, but used by bacteria in the lactose-tolerant, and thus does not count towards ketosis. mere speculation on brute's part, however. but it seems not all carbs have the same effect on ketosis.

Felipe
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Re: Entering Ketosis

Post by Felipe » Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:07 pm

An Update and Some New Learnings (an invitation for anyone on keto to correct any misunderstandings)

Weighed in at 176.2. Same conditions as yesterday but mildly fasted (12 hours). I am falling asleep much easier but around 7 hours is now enough instead of laying in bed till I hit 8.

I expected congestion and indigestion since I get that from too much burgers or pizza but breathing is clean and gut feels good outside of first thing in the morning. This high animal fat diet is easier on my body than expected. Worrying about lactose intolerance seems counterproductive.

I read on lactose intolerance and it seems everyone but Europeans gets it. I'm 70% South European by blood even though I'm Hispanic by culture so maybe I got lucky. Either way, I think the gluten and sugar messed up my body more than the animal products.

I looked at my walnuts and they have 3 grams of carbs, 3 grams of fiber-so I thought this was 0g net carb?

I noticed pecans, among other nuts, do have quite a bit of carbs. Toasted walnuts and almonds(~17.8% net carbs by weight) are tasty but only walnuts seems safe for early ketosis.

I'm also noticing the electrolyte mix I had contains a sweetener than has an insulin response so time to find a new one even though it has no sugar or carbs. I use real salt with reverse-osmosis water.

But it seems small amounts of sugar are okay during my eating window: lemon juice, avocado. I worried when I realized my multi vitamin has 45mg of sugar for every 12 grams until I did some math. At .00375% sugar by weight. A fraction of lemon juice so it seems lots of products have these tiny amounts of sugar or carbs and they simply round down to 0 but aren't a true 0. At least this company was as clear as they could be.

I'm going to transition towards a 20-4 daily intermittent fasting style. Starting with an 8 hour eating windows of around noon to 8. I read that acv and broth are okay on keto fasts. I also read that 2 tsp of acv and 1tsp of lemon juice before a meal can help with digestion. Too much protein seems bad so cutting out all lean cuts of meat. Occasional tilapia or chicken okay but who really prefers these to the staples of bacon and cheese?

My diet so far seems:
Meal 1: 2-3 eggs cooked in coconut oil+pack bacon+slab cheese
Snack: 5 pieces toasted walnuts
Meal 2: Cabbage or lettuce salad with lemon, olive oil, salt, cheese, meat

Counting calories puts me around or slightly above maintenance but hormonal effects may actually be more important for fat loss. I've noted weight loss but this may be water and depleting my glycogen stores.

Added sugar free whip cream to shopping list so I can mix in cocoa and stevia for a chocolate cream.

Cost will seem to average out around $10/day. This is the price of a bowl of pho after taxes, before tip so not horrendous but it's a step up from subsidized grains.

Skin feels slightly warmer, body feels more energetic and easier to move around, "hunger"(my cravings for food since I've never felt true hunger) is more managable, releasing water like crazy (expected), still unsure if going into ketosis even though I'm eating under 1 gram of sugar a day and 20 grams of net carbs a day. My breathe does not smell like acetone, I'm hoping a sweet fruity smell comes instead.

I'm allowing myself some small amount of carbs if taken consciously. ie-yesterday I had a roasted coffee like drink that has 2 grams net carbs per teaspoon but it's made of roasted grains like barely and rye. I had half the drink then got over it. This is less carbs than an ounce of almonds or a half cucumber. I had a third of a cucumber yesterday and a few bites of artichoke the day before. Will shoot for no carbs outside of lemon juice, eggs, cheese, and multi-vitamin today to push ketosis into effect.

I believe my dad is insulin resistant after more research. Night blindness, bathroom habits, high blood sugar, all point in that direction. I may have been in early stages of that. If this diet works for me, family may jump on board to try it out. Some have already expressed interest but said they need bread. I didn't expect going without carbs to feel alright until I got the high fat in me.

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BRUTE
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Re: Entering Ketosis

Post by BRUTE » Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:27 pm

tbh brute doesn't know much about nuts. walnuts might very well be fine. macadamias are, brute thinks, they're almost pure fat. almonds and peanuts are pretty carby.

sounds like Felipe is doing everything right :) good luck.

Felipe
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Re: Entering Ketosis

Post by Felipe » Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:19 pm

Thanks Brute.

Found my electrolyte mix: https://www.ketogenicforums.com/t/ketoa ... toade/5198
1/4 tsp morton's lite salt
1/2 tbsp magnesium citrate
24oz water

Available at Walmart for $3, maybe dollar store for $2. Had some of the 0 carb but possibly insulin triggering electrolyte after eating today. I'll cut it out during the fasted part of the day and pick up the Walmart mix soon.

Breakfast:
Multi-vit/probiotic
2 Eggs +1tbsp coconut oil
~4 oz smoked lamb
3 strips bacon
3oz smoked dutch
1/2 avocado

Going to unfreeze ground beef soon to throw over a salad.

Felipe
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Re: Entering Ketosis

Post by Felipe » Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:50 am

Does anyone take probiotics (supplemented or kefir/yogurts/krauts) or cycle carbs in for intense workout days?

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BRUTE
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Re: Entering Ketosis

Post by BRUTE » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:19 am

not on day 3 of keto. it can take 3-6 months of being in ketosis for the human body to adapt. before that, carb cycling is just going to prevent adaptation.

Felipe
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Re: Entering Ketosis

Post by Felipe » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:53 am

Okay. Thanksgiving will be the planned evaluation time and a carb day.

I'm feeling hunger differently. A 16-18 hour fast seems relatively easy compared to just a week ago.

Hitting Costco tomorrow to finish groceries.

It seems I can make a fat based pizza crust as an occasional thing.
http://www.ditchthecarbs.com/2015/04/23/fat-head-pizza/

ducknalddon
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Re: Entering Ketosis

Post by ducknalddon » Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:42 am

BRUTE wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:12 pm

for reference, pretty much all cheese (or dairy, really) has a bit of sugar in it. after all, lactose is a sugar (-ose == sugar: sucrose, glucose, fructose, lactose). but brute has eaten in excess of 1lb of cheese in one sitting and never even started to fall out of ketosis. so either the amount is small enough not to matter, or lactose is metabolized differently. there is definite evidence that fructose, for example, is metabolized very differently from glucose. might be that lactose in the non-lactose-intolerant (brute is extremely lactose-tolerant) has its own metabolic pathway.
I don't think there is much lactose in cheese, it mostly ends up in the whey.

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BRUTE
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Re: Entering Ketosis

Post by BRUTE » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:11 pm

depending on the type of cheese, the level is different. apparently hard cheeses are almost lactose free, whereas soft cheeses have lots.

Felipe
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Re: Entering Ketosis

Post by Felipe » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:39 pm

More keto flu today. Intermittent headache, brain fog/slowed way down, highly lethargic. Joints are feeling better. Fasting isn't as hard anymore. Hunger doesn't feel as overwhelming as it used to. I feel surprisingly resilient to eating carbs and food in general. I can actually control what I eat for extended periods without cheating.

Grocery shopped today and learned about food.
Grassfed organic meats have better fatty acid profiles and lower levels of heavy metals with higher nutrient levels (eat from more nutritious soil and have biologically appropriate diets) so I picked up some grassfed steaks and ground beef, cheese, sour cream, butter, veggies. Picked up a few kinds of wild fish too for the fatty acids, later realized that fish is mostly protein :lol: guess I'll supplement with some butter.

I have to be careful on eating smoked salmon and sour cream due to them both have 2 grams of net carbs per serving. Olives also have a significant (in scientific not size meaning) amount of carbs. Yogurt is out of the picture but we have an almond yogurt that I could try in moderation.

Costco didn't have everything I wanted but Walmart should finish my list.

My meals are still: eggs+ bacon+cheese+lamb/beef-->green (lettuce, cabbage)+lamb/beef+1-2 cheese(s)+olive/walnut sometimes+lemon, olive oil, salt

As soon as family leaves I dream of putting all the carbs in a bag in the attic. They seem more curious every day but are still scared from watching What the Health. I explain that while eating meat comes with some risks (mainly from eating at a higher trophic level) it also gives benefits (higher quality fats, proteins, various micronutrients) and eating bread, sugar, and carbs as the staple of a diet has its own rewards/risks.

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BRUTE
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Re: Entering Ketosis

Post by BRUTE » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:56 pm

go Felipe :)

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El Duderino
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Re: Entering Ketosis

Post by El Duderino » Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:19 pm

Something to be aware of with nuts is phytic acid content and the balance of the types of fats. This article covers the topic well.

Felipe
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Re: Entering Ketosis

Post by Felipe » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:43 pm

@Brute
Thanks for Brute's support. Without it, I would be eating a lot more carbs right now.

How do I make the chocolate cream Brute talks about- Whip cream + cocoa and spoon around till dark?

@ElDuderino
Every time I read your name it is said in a wwe superhero voice.

Thanks for the link. Walnuts and almonds are the only ones worth the calories taste-wise. I didn't realize their fatty acid profiles were unhealthy too. I'll stay away for a while as I explore more fish/meats.

Progress Report:
175.2lbs this morning (35lbs down since January, 25 to go). Went from 6pm yesterday to 130pm today fasted. Planning on doing 18/6 style for a while.

Picked up groceries. Cream cheese has 1 gram net carbs/30g, whip cream <1gram nc/30g, morton's lite salt contains 40mg dextrose/100 grams salt to stabilize the iodine (insignificant in size sense), everything else has 0 grams of net carbs. I almost picked up a sugar free bbq sauce but it still was over 10% net carbs by weight. Like almonds, looks good on the surface but more carbs than it's worth. I'll keep an eye out for a truly low carb bbq sauce but no pressure. It's less important as my palate adapts to less sugar. There's a light craving for carbs. But I feel surprisingly less anxious about food in general.

I picked up chocolate.. 2 bars. 1 90%, 1 36%. The 90% has under 10 grams of net carbs in the whole bar. The 36% is from TJ's, xylitol sweetened so it has 8 grams of net carbs in the whole bar. I forgot how poorly I do with milk chocolate and consumed the whole bar relatively quickly. That's half my carbs for the day but I realized I've been having under 10 grams of net carbs so far and have a tiny bit of room for things with 1 or 2 grams of net carbs per realistic serving. The headache mildly alleviated for an hour with that and the electrolyte mix. I read it may take up to a month for my body to get comfortable running on ketones.

I've eaten some steak with buttered broccoli and pepper jack. Snacking on the broccoli until my next meal around 6 or 7pm, a huge salad with cheese, lamb, steak. Taking a day off from bacon and eggs to mix things up. Was going to make a fathead pizza today but I've already had too many carbs. At 12 grams net carbs it'd bump me to my limit and my lemons would knock me over. So that will be for Thursday or Friday since I'll be at a bbq tomorrow.

Favorite keto meals so far:
*2 sunny side up eggs over a bed of lamb and covered with a layer of smoked cheese and a few strips of bacon
*salad with lemon, olive oil, salt, lamb, feta, cheddar, toasted walnuts (no more), and a pack of bacon

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BRUTE
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Re: Entering Ketosis

Post by BRUTE » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:28 pm

Felipe wrote:
Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:43 pm
How do I make the chocolate cream Brute talks about- Whip cream + cocoa and spoon around till dark?
brute dumps a few teaspoons of cocoa powder in some heavy cream and then uses a whisk to whip it up. with the clumpy powder in there and an electric blender, it takes <30 seconds to whip it up.

brute is literally eating it right now.

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Riggerjack
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Re: Entering Ketosis

Post by Riggerjack » Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:05 pm

I've never done keto, and have no advice there.

But, if you are going for grass fed beef, I suggest you look in Craigslist farm section for local, grass fed beef. Much cheaper to buy a side of beef, and freeze than buy steaks at any market. A bit of a hassle, but if you plan to keep it up, this gets you a very direct look at the source and processing of your food, if that is important to you.


Good luck!

Felipe
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Re: Entering Ketosis

Post by Felipe » Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:51 pm

@Brute
That idea's worked with whipped cream. The guy at Trader Joe's said cream is too thin to make into whip cream but I don't think he knew what he was talking about. Cream make a more solid whipped cream than the store bought stuff and has a lower carb content.

@RiggerJack
Thanks for the pointers. I looked it up and there are some spots about 2 hours away. The price for multiple pieces is slightly lower than the price for ground beef. I'd get ground beef, ribs, steaks, and a greater variety of other cuts but also some more bones. It seems like the beef of a quarter or half cow would fit once we empty our full freezer but my moving in a few months and sharing said freezer makes it seem less feasible now. Good idea for when I'm staying somewhere for months on my own though.

Progress Report:
It seems the worst of keto flu has passed. I still feel lightly tired/foggy but nothing like the past few days. Hunger is still mostly gone. I'd wonder if I was doing it right if it wasn't for hunger's different feeling. Slightly metallic taste in mouth. I like it. Not eating carbs still feels easier than I thought it'd be.

18/6 is working out great. Eat between 12 and 6. Diet is same as last post except now adding apple cider vinegar to 130F water before first meal to help digestion and having some whipped cocoa cream for desert once in a while. I took yesterday off from eggs+bacon and wow that was a bad idea. A pound of bacon a day keeps the doctor away. Had some steak yesterday. Will work through some ground beef and halibut over the coming few days. Have some rockfish, steaks, ground beef, smoked cheese, and lamb in the freezer to work through over the coming weeks. I think my palate should stable out by then. Also have canned salmon and sardines for the fats. For someone who's not used to meat as every meal, this feels surprisingly exciting.

No carb basically means-No grains, sugars (no gi sugar alcohols like xylitol and stevia in moderation), starchy vegetables (a few tbsp onion and garlic for cooking meat in is okay), legumes, nuts, or sweet fruits. This means I'll eat eggs, cheese, meats, and/or butter/cream/olive oil/coconut oil with some dark or cruciferous vegetables/very low carb fruit (an avocado or few olives) for taste. It is simple and I really enjoy the cooking. I feel like my multi-layer salad with whipped cocoa cream desert is going to make for a fancy date night soon.

Will roast walnuts and almonds so they get consumed by other people instead of me. Will gradually try to clear out the junk food (carbs) from the house by leaving it out as snack for family and friends.

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BRUTE
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Re: Entering Ketosis

Post by BRUTE » Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:57 pm

Felipe wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:51 pm
The guy at Trader Joe's said cream is too thin to make into whip cream but I don't think he knew what he was talking about.
he didn't. brute made whipped cream out of Trader Joe's heavy cream yesterday and it works just fine.
Felipe wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:51 pm
whipped cocoa cream desert is going to make for a fancy date night soon.
the best part is when Felipe tells them they just consumed 1200kcal in a single serving of dessert after dinner :D

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Smashter
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Re: Entering Ketosis

Post by Smashter » Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:51 am

When I was doing ketosis, I did a deep dive into all things Peter Attia and found it to be very helpful.

http://eatingacademy.com/

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