Programming bootcamps?

[TopHatFox]

Anyone tried one of these? They seem to have excellent results employment wise

[SavingWithBabies]

I've assisted in hiring people from them. I have mixed thoughts. They do well when the candidate coming in already has programming experience(*)/aptitude but might be missing some aspects and needs some coaching on interviewing and the industry. But there is another option in which you get paid instead of them paying you. I wrote about that here. There has also been some closings of bootcamps (one article). I personally think they can be very expensive for what you are getting however in a really hot market like the SF Bay Area where demand is off the charts for developers, it can work out well.

* I include personal experience on side projects or learning projects here -- not suggesting professional experience.

[theanimal]

I have an ERE minded friend who did one last year. He had zero programming experience and often found himself somewhat overwhelmed during the course. It was $10k for three months or something like that. He followed that up with an internship working on algorithms for a financial institution. Now he's working full time for a consulting firm. All anecdotal of course, but he loved it. Changed his life.

[TheRedHare]

I've also thought about attending one of these. As it can be more cost and time effective than going back for a CS degree. From what I hear some of the downsides can include the amount of information that is being crammed down your throat can be crazy. You probably won't be able to retain all the information either unless you continue to self study.

All things aside, I still think they might be worth a shot, but only if you're sure your interested in it. I'll probably take one once I pay off my student loans.

[SavingWithBabies]

@TheRedHare Have you read about the Software Craftsmanship option? They pay you instead of you paying them. It also is a longer period of time usually and you have enough time to truly learn. What I saw in the end with the bootcamps was they became more of a stamp of approval for those that put in the time up front to learn on their own and then have their learnings validated (and no doubt somewhat enhanced) by the cram course. You can skip the bootcamp if you spend enough time learning on your own, become active online (ie on StackOverflow) and do a couple of projects that you publish on Github. Then all you need to do is be able to get past the interviews and you're in. If you can do that at your current employer (I read your other thread), that is a very smooth path. I'd still do the public things though as they'll be useful both for learning and for visibility when you want to jump to another employer.

[7Wannabe5]

I considered attending one myself, but chose to enroll in a couple different online certificate programs instead, because much less expensive. It's not easy memorizing a bajillion new acronyms when your brain is over 50, but it is fun to learn new skills like how to apply subnet masks. I am focusing on technical nuts and bolts courses first, because that is the realm in which my prior education and experience is most lacking, because I never felt the need to overclock a CPU so that I could defeat a boss*, or anything even remotely like that, not ever.

My point here being that there are trade skills in the tech world that are more like plumbing than programming which pay pretty well too. When I complete my certificate, I am confident that I will either be able to get some kind of job, or build or fix stuff independently to make some money, because technology is super fragile, and very few people understand how it works.


* I did not even know what a boss was until I took this course.

[BRUTE]

programming is plumbing

[7Wannabe5]

@BRUTE: True in the sense that bits are analogous to sheep or turds, but programmers don't usually get to drive around in cool trucks with tools in the back, and they make different poor choices in wardrobe.

[SavingWithBabies]

I have to admit I'm disappointed I can't interested people in getting paid to learn versus paying to learn. While I left the whole Software Craftsmanship movement in some ways (I might return one day), I think it's really amazing and the best way to get started in software development. I put finding it at about the same level as ERE in terms of life changing although I recognize that is highly personal to my life.

It sounds too good to be true so I'll explain one downside I'm aware of. They are lower than industry pay if the employer is a consulting company. The one I went through was and they used the apprenticeship model to get inexperienced people up to speed and billable. It took a serious investment of time and money and that had to be made back. Plus the company took on money to expand and that has a cost. So my pay at the Software Craftsman consulting company was probably 75-80% of industry average. We'd make less than the software developers at the companies we would consult to. So long term, it's not a good deal and I left because I want to ERE.

But if you can get into one without experience, it can be a great way to learn with depth that far exceeds the bootcamps. It can come with some interesting culture but if you bear in mind that you're probably not going to be working for that company forever, it is not anything unbearable and can actually be interesting.

So I really recommend checking it out. I have no financial incentive to recommend the path. It is relatively unheard of although there are more and more companies trying to start using the apprenticeship model to expand their team and the software craftsmanship model to keep their software up. While one could debate quite a bit about the best way to do these things (and programmers will forever), it is certainly one interesting thing in the software world that is worth knowing about.

[BeyondtheWrap]

@TopHatFox: IIRC, didn't you try taking Computer Science in college and did badly in it? If that's correct I don't think a bootcamp would be a good idea for you.

[BRUTE]

not necessarily true - CS has almost nothing to do with the day to day work of developing software, which is mostly plumbing. no math, algorithms, or any of that theoretical nonsense involved.

@SavingWithBabies:

it is interesting that nobody ever even responds to these ideas. brute hasn't tried it, but at least one company on that website (8th Light) has an extremely good reputation that brute has heard from even on the other side of the country.

[James_0011]

The only thing I would be wary of in terms of being a boot camp programmer is that the barrier to entry is so low. It seems like programming is becoming a commodity, while software engineers with cs degrees have more job security and a better outlook.

I could be wrong though.

[BRUTE]

probably true to a degree, but better than nothing. in fact, much better than nothing. for many humans, the alternative probably isn't 4 years of school, because it's a huge investment of time and money.

edit:

by the way: that idea that humans who already kinda knew how to code do really well in code bootcamps is also true for CS degrees. plenty of humans get CS degrees and can't code for shit.

[James_0011]

Good point. If its a bootcamp or nothing, a bootcamp is far superior.

[Papers of Indenture]

I have to admit I'm disappointed I can't interested people in getting paid to learn versus paying to learn.

I'm thinking that is because these types of apprenticeships are pretty rare in most parts of the country....or at least not advertised. In my major metro area the only "apprenticeships" I have seen require a previous internship and bachelor degree in computer science or four years of development experience.

[SavingWithBabies]

@Papers Yes, that is true. You really have to dig for them. I've found that to be true of most software development jobs (that I've wanted). There is a lot of job filtering to find things that actually match your current skill set. But that is a bit much up front before you're even in the industry!

I think the best way to find them is to find the local Software Craftsmanship meetup and then figure out who hosts it and what companies are well represented by employees. It takes work though. It would be great if there was a better directory. I think that is one of the issues though with the "we pay you" instead of "you pay us" -- there is less of a problem filling those openings so they don't need to spend money to get the word out.

So I don't know how to fix that. And I suspect some of the companies would argue that it is a feature not a bug. But if nobody knows about the option, they are really filtering down the number of applicants and it would be better to get the word out.

[Papers of Indenture]

@Papers Yes, that is true. You really have to dig for them. Although I've honestly found that to be true of any software development job. There is a lot of job filtering to find things that actually match your current skill set.

I think the best way to find them is to find the local Software Craftsmanship meetup and then figure out who hosts it and what companies are well represented by employees. It takes work though. It would be great if there was a better directory. I think that is one of the issues though with the "we pay you" instead of "you pay us" -- there is less of a problem filling those openings so they don't need to spend money to get the word out.

So I don't know how to fix that. And I suspect some of the companies would argue that it is a feature not a bug. But if nobody knows about the option, they are really filtering down the number of applicants and it would be better to get the word out.

Also - some of the apprenticeships on your Chicago link actually have Boot Camp graduation as a pre-requisite so there really isn't a cost savings.

But yes - going out and meeting people in the real world is always the best way forward.

[SavingWithBabies]

@Papers That is interesting -- it's been a while since I looked at that link and it wasn't like that in the past. That is an interesting turn of events.

[liberty]

plenty of humans get CS degrees and can't code for shit.

So true! A CS degree isn't worth the paper it's written on. Or, it shouldn't be, but unfortunately some employers still look at papers, which means you normally get slightly higher salary if you have a degree. But that's also the beauty of FU-money: You can quit if you don't get the salary you deserve (based on your real value).

[SavingWithBabies]

Not to sidetrack, but CS just has very little to do with actual programming (as a software developer) in the real world. There is still some quite useful and interesting theory to learn and apply it's just not the purpose of CS to produce programmers. And how useful CS is to your real world really depends on what you're working on. Having a diverse range of backgrounds is useful so I would include having some with CS degrees in that range of backgrounds.