Next job: technical or management?

[SimpleLife]

I've decided to look for a better opportunity, even if I take a pay cut. I'm tired of being the IT slave to the decision makers who ignore my recommendations and when it all comes falling down, I'm still the one left fixing it, because if I don't, *I'll* be the one let go, not them. As a result, the dynamic where I protect the incompetent peoples jobs is a continuous cycle. I think one of the biggest reasons I'm unhappy it because of this dynamic.

While I can more easily get a technical job/pass a technical interview, I've considered going back into management to get away from this dynamic, as just moving to another technical job will be more of the same idiocy, and I've seen a few threads on here where others are also tired of doing hands on work and want to go into management.

The accountability with no authority thing weighs on me though. In the past that was the type of management I was. I was held accountable, but had no authority to make any decisions, just had the title of Manager. To be fair, they were terrible places to work and had very high turn over (more prestigious than Facebook so not exactly a McJob) and other managers had the same frustrating experience.

Another concern is the surveys showing that 4 out of the top 10 worst jobs in the US are IT, with IT Director being at the TOP of that list, and technical roles like the one I'm in now round out several other top spots, I'm starting to wonder whether going into management is the better bet. Perhaps I was just in the wrong organizations, the two times in my past I was a manager. They were revolving doors after all.

Still, even if not a perfect solution, I think I need to focus on applying to management gigs, it will still be light years better than the dynamic I have now. Heck, that was my plan almost 4 years ago. Plus, more and more of my type of work is outsourced. Tired of being abused by companies because I'm the consultant. Management roles are at least FTE's not contractors on W2...

Really starting to regret all those management positions I turned down in recent years. Good news is, I've been able to consistently get them, so it's just a matter of applying and interviewing for a bit usually. What say ye? Get back in to management in IT or find a job not on the top 10 crappy professional jobs list.

[Tyler9000]

I'm tired of being the IT slave to the decision makers who ignore my recommendations and when it all comes falling down, I'm still the one left fixing it, because if I don't, *I'll* be the one let go, not them. As a result, the dynamic where I protect the incompetent peoples jobs is a continuous cycle. I think one of the biggest reasons I'm unhappy it because of this dynamic.

In my experience, being in management does not eliminate this dynamic. It only gives you a level to push down on the same amount that the one above is pushing on you. But add the stress of your direct reports pushing back, and it will squeeze you dry even faster. Based on your stated frustrations, I don't think management will make you any happier.

IIRC you're already in a good financial place. Why not take a break? Sometimes wiping the slate clean and taking a deep breath is the best way to evaluate your options.

[SimpleLife]

I'm tired of being the IT slave to the decision makers who ignore my recommendations and when it all comes falling down, I'm still the one left fixing it, because if I don't, *I'll* be the one let go, not them. As a result, the dynamic where I protect the incompetent peoples jobs is a continuous cycle. I think one of the biggest reasons I'm unhappy it because of this dynamic.

In my experience, being in management does not eliminate this dynamic. It only gives you a level to push down on the same amount that the one above is pushing on you. But add the stress of your direct reports pushing back, and it will squeeze you dry even faster. Based on your stated frustrations, I don't think management will make you any happier.

IIRC you're already in a good financial place. Why not take a break? Sometimes wiping the slate clean and taking a deep breath is the best way to evaluate your options.

I get that dynamic. There would still be an element of selecting the right place to be a manager. I've turned several positions down in the past 3 years because they were a poor fit (due diligence showed high turnover in the same position and generally low morale and serious cultural issues).

I did have ONE interview a few months ago where the Director I was interviewing with, not to mention the CFO of a major company you've heard of, they loved me and I absolutely loved them. We were on the same page intellectually. Strategically we thought the same. We understood the same concepts.

I've considered taking a break, at least between jobs, a good month off, but at the end of the day, that doesn't ultimately solve the root cause of the problem. I think learning how to spot a good fit for you at a job weighs heavily on whether you will like or hate it there. Either way, I know for a fact being the Engineer slave is NOT the solution. Not for me.

[mfi]

...the root cause of the problem.

Often the root cause is our own attitude. One way to address the cause is to acknowledge it and then learn how to metaform or change something by changing only our own attitude about it. Otherwise, we risk cycling through the same frustrations in the next technical/managerial position while dealing with competent/incompetent coworkers.

[SimpleLife]

...the root cause of the problem.

Often the root cause is our own attitude. One way to address the cause is to acknowledge it and then learn how to metaform or change something by changing only our own attitude about it. Otherwise, we risk cycling through the same frustrations in the next technical/managerial position while dealing with competent/incompetent coworkers.

OK, so what if I make it a game to see just how much I can get away with? I checked with HR, my vacation get's cached out upon separation...

I could even just make a game out of it. I had a classmate recently in grad school who claimed he was perpetually confused about the assignment we were working on as a team with others because the font in my email (the default font) was too small to read correctly. I responded in 72 point font asking if that was big enough for them to read now. My other classmates and I all had a laugh about it...I was actually the happiest I had been in a while in that moment. The guy is just obtuse and the rest of the team realized it and his attempts at excuses.

[IlliniDave]

How much longer are you planning on working? Presuming it is a relatively short time I would take whatever path gives you the best expectation to minimize the time, then don't view work as the details of the job, view it in terms of the progress you are making in your bigger goals. If you "judge" work it's likely you'll never be happy. If you have to make an evaluation make it based on how effectively your time translates into wealth.

[SimpleLife]

How much longer are you planning on working? Presuming it is a relatively short time I would take whatever path gives you the best expectation to minimize the time, then don't view work as the details of the job, view it in terms of the progress you are making in your bigger goals. If you "judge" work it's likely you'll never be happy. If you have to make an evaluation make it based on how effectively your time translates into wealth.

OK, so technically I'm FI now, but I planned on working 5.5 more years. I could call it good now, and either retire here in Seattle OR do a little geographic arbitrage and relocate and have 5-6 times my required expenses each month in income especially if relocating. But I planned on working a bit more. I've learned a lot about how to play the corporate game, and this one little hump is another to overcome. I don't want to let idiots keep me from my financial goals by driving me out of the workforce with their sheer stupidity. Picking the right company/manager is the most important in achieving this.

I hear what you're saying about using the job for personal goals, heck, I'm doing that a bit now. But it's tiring dealing with the same incompetents day after day. There comes a point where even they realize you're smarter than them. I lose a little bit of self respect each week, trading my soul for money.

Today I passed my technical interview for a better paying job with growth potential anyway. About 167K a year with promotional potential. I got invited for an onsite interview. Not sure I will take it, as it is more work, more technical work at that, I'm on call and I have to commute to the office, vs. working from home, while in grad school (9 months to go 1 class at a time...it's all I could get course wise). Plus this job will really just be more of the same. Someone else being the decision maker with me being the order taker. That's the REAL issue for me. I will job hop if necessary to find a manager above me that gets it. I had one at my last job. Not so much here...

Heck, I'd even take a management gig for 120K or so if it's a decent place to work. I don't need to make engineering dollars anymore anyways, and given enough time I will work my way back up in the pay ranks.

[EdithKeeler]

Please take these comments in the spirit in which they're intended, which is meant to be helpful. I'm just wondering if there's not something else going on with you, and please don't take this the wrong way, but I wonder if if you've thought about getting evaluated for depression. The reason I ask is that I see a lot of similarities between the stuff you post about here as what I went through when I was having a rough time. Mine ended up leading to a small breakdown from stress and depression. Only a handful of family and close friends knew what happened to me, and they were so surprised, all consistently commenting "but you didn't seem depressed! You didn't act depressed!" But I was, even though I didn't have a lot of the typical symptoms, or rather, I hid them/coped very, very well. During that period of time I interviewed for several jobs and was offered 2 really good ones but for reasons I still don't understand to this day, I didn't take. Maybe a change of scenery job-wise would have helped... but I think it's more likely I just would have brought my problems with me.

But I grew increasingly frustrated with the "idiots and morons" at work and I became more and more impatient and angry with everything and everyone. Small things would set me off at work, and while I wasn't screaming at people, I wasn't always very nice, and then I fumed and obsessed about it when I got home from work, etc. I still got my work done, better than anyone else, but was putting in long hours, neglecting my diet and health, not sleeping, etc. Every day I had the same "tape" running through my head, that "if I just had a different job... if I just lived in a different place." I'd run these elaborate scenarios in my head about quitting my job, getting a job as a chef, running a food truck at the beach, getting my real estate license, going back to school for an advanced degree... etc. In your posts here you've talked about HR job, going back into management, maybe becoming a financial planner, you've gone back to school, you're frustrated in your job. Anyway... I just see parallels to what was going on with me, not long before I started contemplating running my car into a concrete bridge support or trying to figure out how to gas myself in the garage. No, I didn't do any of that stuff--fortunately, I realized something was really wrong and saw a doctor.

It may not be any of that. But... like I said, before it got really bad for me, I would have said there was nothing wrong. If asked, but no one did, because I was able to cope pretty well and hide the fact I was sleeping only three hours a night, etc.

If I'd had the financial wherewithal at the time, I would have gotten the help i needed and probably just taken a year off to get myself back on an even keel. I went back to work after 6 weeks, but really it took about a year to work through the mental and physical stuff. (I was so worn down I got bronchitis, which I never treated properly, which turned into pneumonia, which I thought was over, but which came back.....two cases of pneumonia after 2 months of bronchitis was a miserable experience I have no wish to repeat, either....).

Anyway, I could be completely off-base here, and if so, i apologize. But I will suggest one last thing--if you really think you want to make a change, you might think about a few meetings with a career counselor. I' had a few sessions with one, talking about changing careers, etc. and it really helped. She helped me focus in on the things I really and truly wanted, not just "a different job--something, anything!!" which is how I felt (and I did this AFTER the mess that I wrote about above, so I was mostly sane--sane as I ever am!!) when I met with her. For me, she helped me figure out that I was too close to retirement to make a change, helped me see the positives of my current job and look for challenges and changes within it, and to develop interests, etc. outside of work that could lead to a job / career of a sort when I finally do semi-retire.

Anyway. I wish you well, whatever you do.

[Scott 2]

Putting yourself in management just adds to the number of people flinging crap on you.

[1taskaday]

From my short never to be repeated experience of being a manager I would rate it the same as being a parent to a pack of helpless whiny kids.

Why would I do that at work when I already do it at home!

[vexed87]

I line manage staff, and if they are good people, it's great, and if they're bad people, it's hell. Whether or not you enjoy managing difficult people is worth considering, but to me it just seems the inverse of the boss not listening to your recommendations. Your staff will not do as their told, and you are left picking up the pieces.

Have you considered working for yourself? This could eliminate the frustrations you have with people ignoring your recommendations on projects. While your clients are you bosses, you can at least choose your work.

[BRUTE]

is SimpleLife a tech support/QA/testing engineer, or a diva unicorn product developer? there are worlds of difference. IT guys usually hate their jobs, because everyone takes a dump on them and they're always stressed, always on call.

developers are usually the opposite. everyone loves them, everyone caters to them. maybe SimpleLife just needs to switch to the other side, or change companies. brute has never experienced any of the stuff SimpleLife mentions, and doesn't know anyone who has. developer life is easy and awesome at most companies. and he would probably make more money (depending if potential employers value his previous work experience). maybe devops engineer is a good combination? those can make a ton of money and are really hard to find, so usually treated well.

[Noided]

@EdithKeeler

Good post and from reading a lot of OPs posts, I get the idea the same idea as you do: he is always mad/angry/sad, about everything in his life. I think this thread is the final nail the coffin. I would advise him to get some help because something isn't right, and it's not just his career.

My 2nd advice to OP: quit and relax for a while before thinking about working more. Your posts are sirens of burning out.

[Tyler9000]

is SimpleLife a tech support/QA/testing engineer, or a diva unicorn product developer? there are worlds of difference. IT guys usually hate their jobs, because everyone takes a dump on them and they're always stressed, always on call. developers are usually the opposite. everyone loves them, everyone caters to them.

My own diva unicorn product developer experience is that it carries its own types of stresses (ridiculous schedules, questionable marketing decisions, difficult vendors halfway around the world). As my DW likes to say, there's no such thing as Job Charming waiting to sweep you off your feet.

I'll also second EdithKeeler's comment and add my own experience. I've job-hopped like crazy, always looking for the mythical ideal job for me. And over time I succeeded in identifying pain points and directly addressing them, working at some really nice places. But here's the thing -- I was always happy after each move, but the effect only lasted about a year or two, at which point I would always find something that really bothered me and would start contemplating something new. Eventually I realized the problem was not the job, the culture, the boss, or the people. The problem was me. By being so damn career focused in the first place, I was not taking charge of my own happiness. Blaming anything but your own decisions only serves to make you miserable and distract you from actually achieving lasting happiness.

The way I broke the cycle was to quit. For you the solution may be different. But no matter what you choose, I'd recommend ditching the blame game. Only you are ultimately accountable for your own happiness.

[George the original one]

If you are going into management, then you better have a strategy(*) for dealing with the incompetents outside of "fire them". The only time "fire them" works is if you're the turnaround guru and turnaround gurus need to know who they're going to replace the incompetents with. Turnaround gurus never stay at a job more than a couple years. I honestly don't think your temperament is suited for management.

(*) Motivation, praise, reassignment, handholding, benchmarking, etc. are all part of being a skilled manager.

[BRUTE]

My 2nd advice to OP: quit and relax for a while before thinking about working more. Your posts are sirens of burning out.

+1

[SimpleLife]

@EdithKeeler -

I went through my recent threads, and don't see any signs of depression. What I see is frustration with incompetent people and dysfunctional organizations, as I pointed out in my thread about unconscious competence. Much like this guy: http://www.forum.earlyretirementextreme ... es#p116240

Being an INTJ, I try to solve root causes of problems. As such I try to analytically find patterns and develop a theory then test that theory for accuracy.

Part of my problem is that as my knowledge and analytical ability keep growing, I keep realizing more and more how incompetent most people really are. I'll give you an example. My W2 info with my company was hacked because some incompetent fool fell for a phishing attack. As a result, I had to file my taxes early. To make matters worse, my company mistakenly marked me as having contributed to a retirement plan just because I was eligible for one, but unable to contribute due to a merger. It took 3 days of emailing back and forth the exact same info I had sent them each time, and finally circling the words from the IRS matrix and statute and doing a sock puppet demonstration, that showed them why they were wrong to check that box, which prevented me from making an IRA contribution to reduce my taxable income that year (I was frozen out of the company 401K due to a merger, so I wasn't able to reduce it via that at all).

You would think I was educating a payroll employee. No, I was educating the companies outsourced CPA tax "advisors" who had been doing this for years, mistakenly. Of course they didn't reply to my final email to admit they were wrong, but they sent thousands of employees a new W2 with a slip stating that the box was mistakenly checked because of the exact reason I had told them. It was like I was dealing with a gas station attendant or something.

This is not a one time occurrence. I'm not a CPA. I'm not a lawyer. Yet almost every time I interact with a lawyer, CPA, mechanic, etc. I end up proving them wrong on something they are supposed to be a subject matter expert in. Me. The lowly IT monkey.

I don't really display typical clinical signs of depression. I'm displaying signs of unconscious competence. To me it is extremely frustrating to have to explain what seem like basic things to people who are supposed to be experts in those fields...

I see this in management ranks all the time. Sally was a nice receptionist, she's funny, we like her, we are going to make her a project manager, overseeing 10 developers. Sally has no experience in software or IT, not to mention any education or training in anything.

Yet this person is now the person in charge of software projects. Except they are protected by the idiocy of corporate decisions. Because the developers have to do the real work and deliver, Sally's incompetence is protected and covered up, and she is never accountable for anything. She just says yes to every request, regardless of time and budget, risks or issues, leaving the dev team to deal with the problems. Of course the other idiot managers associate Sally as the reason for the success of these "impossible" projects and she is promoted yet again, and the cycle continues....

[SimpleLife]

@BRUTE -

Really? You've worked as a developer and have never complained about ridiculous time lines, endless change requests, a waterfall project that turns agile, or "just build me something, I'll know what I want when I see it" or project managers who are glorified note takers? Are you really an IT professional? Because not one person I've ever worked with in IT, whether they were DBA's, Systems Engineers, Programmers or Business Analysts has NOT complained about these types of things...In fact you can google it and find blogs filled with these complaints. Most developers hate project managers for example.

Everyone caters to developers? Maybe when "you" were writing Fortran decades ago. Developers are easily replaced these days, for jobs far more complex than Fortran. In fact developer holds the top spot on worst jobs in surveys when it comes to hands on skills. For the exact reasons I've been complaining about them on here and elsewhere for years...

I think you're still living in the decades long ago and comparing your alleged experience back then to the world now. Not one developer I've ever struck up a conversation with at any job has ever NOT had the same complaints...

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=c ... t&ion=1&es
pv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=project%20managers%20are%20idiots

[FBeyer]

From your recent posts I'll ask you this, and contrary to what you think I'd say to you in person: I'd tell you the exact same thing face to face.

You're giving drunkards, incompetents, and incarcerated people the power to ruffle your feathers, why don't you develop the skills to ignore them, and thus become untouchable?

[BRUTE]

SimpleLife definitely shows signs of frustration.

as a root-causes-of-problem solving INTJ, how does SimpleLife solve his frustration?