Not learning at the investments job

[fmincon]

In somewhat of a peculiar situation. I work at a mutual fund company (aka the "buy-side"). My original intention of entering this field was to learn how to invest well. However, I feel like I've been short-changed on that end. The specific strategies I work on is quantitatively-driven, meaning that it's not translatable to my personal account because I'm not going to trade hundreds of positions, especially derivatives, at a go. Even if I were able to, I am still chained to some institution that can afford all the overhead for the data subscriptions (that stuff's expensive), and I haven't even touched model efficacy yet. Then I look at peers who are in this field but are not doing quant stuff, namely the traditional research analysts who do fundamental analysis. What I witness in that space is what Buffett calls the "institutional imperative", where career risk aversion and social proof become the main drivers of people's behaviors. (Not saying it doesn't exist for quants, but it's REALLY obvious for the fundamental guys) They simply regurgitate sell-side reports with some of their own unoriginal interpretation. Since evaluation metrics are so murky, analysts' "pitchmanship" and social jockeying become all that more important, especially in the face of inept portfolio managers. Seeing what people shouldn't do is good, of course, but I'd much rather witness a positive example. It's kind of sad, really. I'm now sort of stuck in a field/position where it pays okay but not super well unless you're the top dog, bored most of the time and the finance shit isn't necessarily easy, don't give a rat's ass about colleagues (most finance ppl live up to the stereotypes), not learning things I feel like is going to be very useful, and I'm just dreaming of FIRE all day at work. What's even crazier is looking at the portfolio managers slaving away when they've already got plenty of millions. I used to buy the mantra that most people keep working after FI because they're really into their jobs. After observing them for a bit, I feel like they've just merely convinced themselves so, because their ego can't handle any alternative. Not sure if I'm even looking for any particular advice, but thought it might be worth sharing my predicament in this mad world.

[GandK]

I'm now sort of stuck in a field/position where it pays okay but not super well unless you're the top dog, bored most of the time and the finance shit isn't necessarily easy, don't give a rat's ass about colleagues (most finance ppl live up to the stereotypes), not learning things I feel like is going to be very useful, and I'm just dreaming of FIRE all day at work.

As I see it, you have two options. You either need to change your job to something you like better, or you need to change your attitude about your current job. And by that, I mean you need to use it as a means to an end (FIRE), and not be so attached to what goes on there. Just go in, do your tasks, and then go home and focus on your passions.

How long do you have before you retire if you stay at this job?

[fmincon]

As I see it, you have two options. You either need to change your job to something you like better, or you need to change your attitude about your current job. And by that, I mean you need to use it as a means to an end (FIRE), and not be so attached to what goes on there. Just go in, do your tasks, and then go home and focus on your passions.

How long do you have before you retire if you stay at this job?

Assuming no kids, a 3.3% SWR and around a $2-2.5mil nest egg in today's terms, and a 3-4% ROI after inflation, about 17-22 years left. Work drains so much time and energy that I'm sapped by the end of day. How do you manage?

[jacob]

I'd suggest changing your frame of reference in at least two directions. BTW, I know from personal experience that this is super-hard and that most aren't willing to do this unless forced to by external circumstances---once the cognitive dissonance becomes too great. Being somewhat introspective, my ERE paradigm shift took me a good 6 months, so don't be discouraged.

1) I would suggest not using the job as training for your own investing but to learn what you're up against. In most fields, there's a big difference between the capabilities and goals of professionals in a professional environment vis a vis ditto amateurs working out of the garage/bedroom. This is not at all to suggest that the latter can't do better! My point is that the "games" and particular goals are entirely different.
2) Your numbers suggest that you desire to spend $66k/year or 40% more than the median family. What's the grand strategy/plan here seeing as you're willing to work for 20 years in a job you don't particularly like to get to this state of supreme financial firepower? Owning a small island? Private airplane? Going on annual safaris? Sending all the relatives to Harvard w/o scholarships? Partaking in molecular gastronomy every single day for the rest of your life?

[IlliniDave]

The way I learned how to avoid my job sapping all the life out of me was to learn to avoid being judgmental about my job and the people there. It just is what it is and they are who they are. Neither the company nor any but a bare few of my coworkers give a crap about me when you get right down to it, so there's no point internalizing any of it.

That left me with two choices, either accept the job for what it is, forget about what it isn't, and show up and do it every day to the best of my ability. Or, leave it and find a different job.

One thing you might consider to spring yourself quicker, using a 3% SWR since the math is rounder, for every $1000/mo you can lower your retirement expenses, you have $400,000 less to accumulate. So if you're accumulating $100K/year, that's 4 years sooner, $50K and it's 8 years sooner. Double that if you can get by with $2K less per month.

I'm not terribly surprised to hear working for an investment company isn't teaching you how to invest "well". In my opinion detailed knowledge is a relatively small part of the recipe for successful investing. Most of it is the ability to curtail the desire for instant gratification, and having patience, prudence, and courage. In other words, the real challenges are in behavior, not in levels of sophistication. Of course, if you want to be a trader/speculator, that's another matter.

[fmincon]

1) I would suggest not using the job as training for your own investing but to learn what you're up against. In most fields, there's a big difference between the capabilities and goals of professionals in a professional environment vis a vis ditto amateurs working out of the garage/bedroom. This is not at all to suggest that the latter can't do better! My point is that the "games" and particular goals are entirely different.
2) Your numbers suggest that you desire to spend $66k/year or 40% more than the median family. What's the grand strategy/plan here seeing as you're willing to work for 20 years in a job you don't particularly like to get to this state of supreme financial firepower? Owning a small island? Private airplane? Going on annual safaris? Sending all the relatives to Harvard w/o scholarships? Partaking in molecular gastronomy every single day for the rest of your life?

1) You've got a good point here. I've been reading and doing a lot more thinking on my own on investments and just treat the job as providing extra infrastructure to facilitate that my research (at the cost of working for the big man of course). Too bad they can't be aligned, which would be MUCH more efficient. Another insight is seeing how gullable consultants and clients are - the managers of pension funds.

2) The $66k/year number is high. Part of it is for financially supporting my mother, but a huge portion is to build a margin of safety by assuming an increase of spending after retirement, mediocre investment returns, and mediocre health. Though the molecular gastronomy sounds nice.

The way I learned how to avoid my job sapping all the life out of me was to learn to avoid being judgmental about my job and the people there. It just is what it is and they are who they are. Neither the company nor any but a bare few of my coworkers give a crap about me when you get right down to it, so there's no point internalizing any of it.

That left me with two choices, either accept the job for what it is, forget about what it isn't, and show up and do it every day to the best of my ability. Or, leave it and find a different job.

Not being judgmental while still putting in the effort is a skill I need to get good at in this corporate rat race. I feel like I've picked up so much cultural baggage about loving/being devoted to one's job that I don't realize I'm placing my hopes on an external locus of control. These days I try to motivate myself by sneaking in "me" time at the job to research stuff I'm interested in.

[Tommy]

fmincon, thank you for your post, it has confirmed a lot of suspicions I've had about the investment industry.