Burnout

Anything to do with the traditional world of get a degree, get a job as well as its alternatives
enigmaT120
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Re: Burnout

Post by enigmaT120 »

Sometimes I refer to it as "doing time" which is obviously insensitive to people who are actually incarcerated.

IlliniDave
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Re: Burnout

Post by IlliniDave »

I'm no stranger to long hours and certain types of stresses at work. I think I've escaped true burnout by being able to reframe things throughout the 17 or so years I had my previous "job" (when I return in January I'll be on a new assignment with the same employer, something I find a little stressful). By "reframing" I mean allowing my relationship with my job/its role in my life to evolve as necessary.

First and foremost, I don't identify strongly with my profession, i.e., I don't walk around thinking of myself as an "engineer" or a Principal this-or-that with XYZ Megacorp. When I was younger my job was my means of providing for my family, and I kept that in the front of my mind. Now my job is my source of financial resources for ER. Along the way I've made a conscious effort to keep my eye on the prize. I've learned not to take work personally and to stop being judgmental about the tasks I perform and the people I interact with. Some days I'm lending a hand doing entry-level grunt work, at other times I'm spending weeks at a time in meetings with customers and upper management. Some of my coworkers are a joy to be around, others are extremely difficult. I just make an effort to forget about what happened yesterday, try not to fret about tomorrow, and make my best effort on whatever I'm doing "right now". I didn't always have that outlook, and for me the accumulation of negative thoughts/feelings was the source of burnout. At some point I began to learn that, at least in my case, collecting up all the negativity and carrying it around with me was a voluntary action on my part. So I stopped.

Maybe it's a cop out, but I've adopted the attitude that if work was supposed to be fun they wouldn't pay me so much to do it, and instead would require I purchase a ticket to get in the door every morning. Typically money flows in the opposite direction of (perceived) happiness. My job at work, the essential transaction, is for me to make my employer happy. Should I derive enjoyment from the job itself, it would be a nice perk. As it is, that is uncommon.

BlueNote
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Location: Toronto, Canada

Re: Burnout

Post by BlueNote »

I did sort of the opposite thing and just accepted a lower average salary for more work life balance.

I could work 60+ hours a week and make more (not close to 150K though Holy Moly ;) ). It's nice because I go to work and work very hard but when I go home I don't do any work at all almost ever. I don't have a work cell phone or anything either. I am very effective and efficient at work because of this. I see other people voluntarily working long hours so they can get ahead and I just don't care for that. I work with people who are always working, at home, on the subway, on the elevator etc. I just force myself to be as effective as possible and I've learned how to work the system. If my employer tries to load me up with too much work I tell them it's too much and suggest alternatives to achieve the same desired result (allocate other resources, automate, extend deadlines etc.)

When I got my accounting designation I was working a full time job plus an extra 20 hours or so a week on the accounting designation. I know what it's like and after it was all done I was almost ready to quit finance and go into some other field like computer programming (my first love). I could program all day long if I was working on a personal project, which I often get to do at my current job because I make time for myself to do that kind of thing.

Another bonus in my situation is that my employer recognizes that I could rapidly find another job and are therefore generous with non-financial stuff. I could probably accept a more junior role somewhere else and make the same salary I do now in a more senior role. I didn't realize how important the work life balance was until I experienced a few years of imbalance.

Hopefully the 2 years of huge savings works out without messing you up, I guess having that FIRE exit at the end would help get you through it.

OrganicRain
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Re: Burnout

Post by OrganicRain »

There is no doubt I am suffering from burnout. I worked straight commission for 10 years - number one sales rep in the country out of 400 reps for 8 of those years. Made lots of money - got tired. Went into sales management and led a team to be the best in the nation. I finally got laid off July2015. Within a couple of months of "time on my hands" everything hit me. I was then offered the same type of role with a competitor and lasted only 6 weeks. Walked out of the place a zombie. Now recovering. Fortunately I am close to, if not, FI.

Someone mentioned that highly effective and driven people are at risk of burnout, well, I am an example.

enigmaT120
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Re: Burnout

Post by enigmaT120 »

scriptbunny wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:38 pm
Re-upping this thread. Any advice for a temporary salve to jacob's type-2 burnout? I figure I need about 6 weeks of mental energy to finish a project and find another job.
I'm sorry, but all I can say is that I need to get out of this as soon as I can. If I quit, no pension for over two years. If they fire me, immediate pension, but I can't make myself operate at a level that bad. I hope and pray for an "early out" situation which will let me retire before I'm 56. I can't think of a temporary salve, maybe my 3 week trip to Costa Rica will be one. I hope not, as I don't want a salve, but a solution.

jacob
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Re: Burnout

Post by jacob »

https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... s-epidemic
Article wrote: [Five signs...]
  • You feel exhausted, with no energy to do anything. You might experience disturbed sleep, and some flu-like symptoms.
  • You have difficulties concentrating, and feel as if your mind is zoning out, going into a daze for hours on end.
  • You feel irritated and frustrated, often becoming self-critical.
  • Supermarkets and similar places begin to feel overwhelming – the lights are too bright and there is too much noise.
  • You feel detached from things you used to love.

AnalyticalEngine
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Re: Burnout

Post by AnalyticalEngine »

Pulling up this thread from a few years back because this is extremely timely for me. I've been dealing with Jacob's type 2 burnout for nearly two years now, and it's getting to the point of no return. I even thought I was going through Major Depressive Disorder for awhile, except all my problems completely vanish when I can get completely away from work for at least a week.

The problem I'm having is I'm both only 4 years into my career, but only 5 years away from ERE. Burnout is impacting my ability to find my way out of this because it doesn't even feel like I'm passionate about anything any more. Every job in my field feels like it'd be the same tedious bullshit.

Does anyone have any advice for coping with type 2 burnout so I feel like I can at least enjoy life outside of work again?

Jin+Guice
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Re: Burnout

Post by Jin+Guice »

I'll again make an argument for real happiness now over imagined happiness later. There is no person in this thread I would not advise to quit their job. If this were a forum for drug addicts I would never make an argument, but there is such a thing as too much delayed gratification. Most us are seeking a to save 35x annual expenses which translates into a high six figure or low seven figure net worth. It's easy to forget, THIS IS NOT A REQUIREMENT FOR A GOOD LIFE.

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Bankai
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Re: Burnout

Post by Bankai »

If you're 4/9 years into accumulation, I assume you already have a pretty sizeable stash of 5-10 years of expenses. Why not take some time off and recharge? You can take 6 months or a year, decompress and think if you want to go back to your old career or start a new path. Staying in a job that makes you miserable for another 5 years doesn't sound good and these things tend to get worse, not better, with time. As many people here concluded, it's better to start fixing your life now and not wait years until at some point in future money will solve all your problems. If a job is your limiting factor, start with changing this part of your life. It's better to be happy now and reach ERE/FI as a byproduct than to make it an ultimate goal and go through hell to reach it.

George the original one
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Re: Burnout

Post by George the original one »

You have a need/desire to continue accumulation. The current job has you burnt out. This is a recipe for job-hopping! Ideally with a short break in-between jobs to recharge your batteries.

Yes, the new job will likely mean BTDT, but at least it will be a new environment. On the bonus side, job-hopping usually entails a pay raise.

classical_Liberal
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Re: Burnout

Post by classical_Liberal »

Adding to the above, another benefit of taking a "sabbatical" is that if the problems a person is experiencing doesn't disappear with the job, clearly there are other issues. Sometimes that realization is worth a years worth of expenses in itself.

Stahlmann
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Re: Burnout

Post by Stahlmann »

The macrorisk is that you can burnout to such a degree in one area that it makes it hard to desire to even try something else... because a "that'll probably suck too" attitude has developed.

You feel exhausted, with no energy to do anything. You might experience disturbed sleep, and some flu-like symptoms.
You have difficulties concentrating, and feel as if your mind is zoning out, going into a daze for hours on end.
You feel irritated and frustrated, often becoming self-critical.
Supermarkets and similar places begin to feel overwhelming – the lights are too bright and there is too much noise.
You feel detached from things you used to love.
:shock: :shock: :shock:

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Jean
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Re: Burnout

Post by Jean »

I've been convinced by my short career that any form of work sucks, and that anyone pretending thé opposite is lying to himself.
Maybe it's similar to how mgtow think After a shitty relationship?

Édit: my french autocorrect made me blâme poor Antoine.
Last edited by Jean on Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

classical_Liberal
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Re: Burnout

Post by classical_Liberal »

@Jean
:lol: you would say that. On the opposite end, I think some form of work or purpose is critical to life fulfillment.

I think one problem with hating work-for-other is not giving it enough time. Often, if you become really good at something, opportunities arise that can continually improve your ability to tailor your job into something you like. Maybe this is you Jean? :D

However, most people in ERE probably have the opposite problem. They stay somewhere too long. I think think this is because: a) we have the FI carrot dangling, so we put up with too much BS running after that carrot. b) We continually trade our job capital for more money instead of the better jobs above. The "b" is often because of "a". This is how some people can come to the conclusion that the idea of FI can really be harmful to a fulfilled life in some respects.

I can't emphasize enough the fact the all the OG's of the modern FIRE movement were at or near FI before they decided they didn't like their work. Everything we learn from them should be taken with that thought in context. None of them, including our dear leader here, have suggested that it's a good idea to be miserable for 5-10 years to reach FI.

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Jean
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Re: Burnout

Post by Jean »

I don't know, i gave it eleven year. Only thé last 20 months were payed, and i was supposed to write down things everyone already knew, while making some expériments (but carefully avoiding to learn anything New, so reviewer don't question us when we try to publish). All this to justify thé money we were getting from the national science foundation. Senior jobs looked like the same, but with more focus on asking for money.
More of it would have led to suicide or some radical action to cut gouvernement spending.

shemp
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Re: Burnout

Post by shemp »

classical_Liberal wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 4:42 pm
... None of them, including our dear leader here, have suggested that it's a good idea to be miserable for 5-10 years to reach FI.
At age 27, I deliberately volunteered for a highly paid but dead end maintenance computer programming job and stayed at it for 7 years to accumulate capital. Co-workers thought I had lost my mind to take such a dead end job, since I was very highly regarded for my skills. I wouldn't call those 7 years misery, since I had nights and weekends mostly free (I was called in after hours to fix emergencies maybe once every three months). And I was treated well by the managers because they were terrified I might quit and they'd never find a suitable replacement, especially since a security clearance was required.

In looking back, my initial exciting 5 years of work at the same corporation is the period I would not want to repeat. That excitement included lots stress and political infighting.

During the dead end 7 years, I counted every day to early retirement like a prisoner counting the days to end of his sentence. In retrospect, I think I made the right choice. There are not that many fulfilling jobs out there, so treating your work years like a prison sentence is often the best approach. A prison sentence which you can reduce by saving more, and where you can be left alone by the guards and other prisoners by doing some necessary but unpleasant task that no one else wants to do.

Fiddle
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Re: Burnout

Post by Fiddle »

Tbf I think alot comes down to the work that is being done and the expectations of others and yourself on your output.
I had burn out after several years and took some time out semi ERE style. After a few years I returned to the previous work in a lower paying role with alot less responsibility and alot more autonomy . I really like the work and would actually do it for free.... at the moment:)

ertyu
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Re: Burnout

Post by ertyu »

To me, it's one of those things: you're not happy doing it, but you'll be happy for having done it.

classical_Liberal
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Re: Burnout

Post by classical_Liberal »

shemp wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:31 am
I wouldn't call those 7 years misery, since I had nights and weekends mostly free (I was called in after hours to fix emergencies maybe once every three months). And I was treated well by the managers because they were terrified I might quit and they'd never find a suitable replacement, especially since a security clearance was required.
Sounds like you traded career/skill capital to get a job that was better for you than the first five years, even though it was "dead end". Then coasted to FI in better suited employment. I think more people should do this.

Curious, did you start your business after this job? you should write a journal, I'd like to read your story!

shemp
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Re: Burnout

Post by shemp »

Yes, for 4 years after semi-retiring from my corporate job, I ran a home business selling a software program I had written. This was in the late 1990's, when software prices were higher (my single user version was $199, it was a program for Windows NT sold to businesses) but expenses also higher (about $3000/month for advertising in print media was my major expense). Eventually competition moved in and I had a choice: enhance my program to match the competition, or sell my customer list and call it quits. I took the latter option.

I was lean FIRE when I left the corporate job and semi-retired, and fat FIRE after 4 years running my home business and fully retiring. My net worth has since grown by 3 times because I continue to spend less than my income (from investments since retiring).

My first few posts here were in a personal journal.

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