STEM for non-STEM grad?

[Egg]

Although there's no's point crying over spilt milk, I often wish I'd done a STEM degree rather than a liberal arts degree (albeit from arguably the world's best university, and always top 5 in any ranking I've seen). I always aced maths and to a lesser extent science at school (though I dropped the latter at 16 in favour of more "fun" subjects I was equally good at).

As anyone who has read my journal will see, I'm coming to an end of my first (brief) career, and at nearly 24 I don't feel too old to retrain. If I go for a job with my current skills I'm unlikely to earn more than £20k p.a. so I'm wondering if at this point retraining in some thing lucrative and hopefully enjoyable would be the best option. Everything is still rather up in the air and there's still an amount of mental flailing as I consider all sorts of possibilities.

I've got half a degree in credits in Maritime Science from professional accreditation of my current work, which might carry over to some extent and reduce time to bachelor' to circa 2 yrs. On the other hand, I'm mostly interested in computers so not necessarily much to carry across.

I already do a little bit of low level HTML/CSS/jQuery/Javascript as a hobby, so the other possibility is to work on that. Not sure how feasible it would be to leverage this into paid work though.

I know most here are STEM to the bone, but does anyone have experience of this kind of move?

[Sclass]

Hi Egg,

My info is a little dated so maybe I can give you some general suggestions as to how to go about this. I graduated with a PHD in a very academicky area of engineering. It was useless in the real world. Since I was at Stanford, I stepped out the door in Silicon Valley and nobody seemed to want me. I was a hacker and had built most of my own instrumentation system for my thesis experiment so I had to basically look hard at those threads and spun them into something that would get me into the SV workforce.

It isn't as hopeless as it looks. I chose an area of EE that was understaffed at the time and became an expert. It took four months of really intense hacking. Now for the dated irrelevant details. I learned how to implement a USB 1.0 interface in embedded hardware (like a mouse or printer) and code the firmware. It was 1998 and USB had just been released. I built a little demo on a breadboard using a Win98 laptop and started a job search. I put it on my resume and bang, dozens of managers called. So interviews went from "oh gee, you're quite an expert in XXXXologyism but um what can you do for us?" To "when the hell can you start we needed you last quarter!"

I took a job at HP with all these hyper expert EECS types who were in their 40s and 50s who just hadn't kept up and direly needed a young guy who was current in the latest connectivity standards. Done deal. Then I did my major retreading after I was in the HP walls on stuff way beyond some silly USB cable...which the old guys taught me well.

Edit - the first years my mentors at HP would comment on how little I knew outside USB. All I seemed to be able to do was interface PCs and diagnose their smog check fails on their cars . I tried hard to be affable and helpful those early years.

You don't sound like you're starting at zero so I suspect if you find your subject that is in demand you can focus and do a similar thing to ride the current computing bubble (note I call it a bubble having lived through four now...milk it while you can kid!). Hope you can draw some useful knowledge from my experience.

I can see some manager at Google doing an automated search for Python data miners for work on a Google Earth app...that you might be able to spin some of your maritime know how into. Just a crazy thought. Time to see what people want and get creative. You can learn a lot in four months if yer focused.

You're closer than you think. Do a search on how Jacob became a quant. There are some similarities (finding a niche and hitting the books intensely for a short time) in his story.

[jacob]

Salaries follow bubble like patterns. Anyone remember this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qrriKcwvlY
That's not really the case anymore. I remember in the early-mid 1990s when people where dropping out of high school for $60k (that's 1995 money, so a six-figure equivalent in today's money) jobs as webmasters coding HTML which they either learned on their own or from taking a 6 month course. That's obviously not happening anymore.

Big salaries come down to two things: Supply/demand and "gold rushes". Basically some new field/patch is discovered (think web design, shale oil, mobile apps, ...); the hot money moves in but there's not enough supply for the new demand. Salaries skyrocket. The field becomes well-known and all these new opportunities are reported; the dumb money follows and people start studying to enter the field---unfortunately, they have a four year lag, so by the time they show up the field just might be dead unless it persists. The current hot fields are software engineering, petroleum engineering, and big data. It's very hard to predict the next hot field several years in advance (long enough to get a BSc or BEng). Remember all those nano-science degrees universities were falling over each other to offer around the turn of the century?

Now good salaries are another thing. They come more from having a moat. STEM is inherently hard (compared to the liberal arts), so supply will always be more limited. Organizations are always hiring for specific technical problems that you can solve(*). However, not all problem-solving methods are the same. For example, in physics, the methods that are valid now will also be valid in 20 years. Whereas as a programmer you'll probably be working in a completely different language or maybe even a completely different paradigm (e.g. going from a functional language to a multi-threaded OO language). Along the same lines, it also depends on whether you'll be working on the research/development/design level, the mechanic level, or the technician level. Different fields will require different levels of education before you can contribute. E.g. in some fields, BSc's will get to work on design, ... in others they only get to push a button when the green light flashes.

(*) If you're lucky you already experienced this exact problem in school, but most likely that won't be the case. I'd submit that at least for the S part of STEM, people are generally using only 5-10% of what they learned in terms of specific tools, etc.

[GandK]

I was a programmer for 20 years before RE.

The best programmers I worked with were those whose undergrad degree was not in an engineering discipline. Music, English and linguistics majors did incredibly well. Reason? Software development is about bridging the gap between man and machine. Most hard-core CS folks are great with machines but suck with human beings. People who write well, have soft skills, and can communicate without sounding pompous or constantly slipping into jargon-ese AND can program are in VERY high demand. Your background would be a definite plus if you go that route.

My advice: choose a field of study that interests you, and also start building a portfolio. Example: volunteer to code for a nonprofit to get some practice. Or offer to "apprentice" to a more experienced solo developer in exchange for mentoring, job skills and recommendations. Do that half a dozen times before you graduate and you'll have an impressive body of work to attach to your resume. And be sure to play up your liberal arts background in the hiring process.

Most companies are not run by nerds. They're run by people who don't understand and distrust what the IT department is doing. Help them become comfortable with technology and you'll be worth your weight in gold.

Good luck!

[Scott 2]

Software testing is an easy entry point. Tough to get CS grads that want to be a lowly tester, so they'll hire non CS grads that can demonstrate ability.

The BBST course here is a good starting point:

http://www.associationforsoftwaretesting.org

Not a six figure position in itself, but gets you in the door.

[Egg]

@ Sclass

Thanks so much for sharing your story. Yeah, you're right it's a bubble no doubt. I'm just wondering if I can get in quick before it pops! Really encouraging to hear your thoughts, though.

@jacob

Fair enough. You're in agreemant with Sclass that it's a bubble, so I guess you're right that any long formal education is a poor gamble. Not sure I accept that STEM is inherently "harder", mind. I genuinely think that a lot of sciency types would struggle with the humanities at a high level. I just think STEM degrees confer more specific, necessary skills than liberal arts.

@GandK

Sounds good. I'm going through http://www.freecodecamp.com/ at the moment which once you've done the whole course (around 1600 hours) lets you work to help non-profits. I'm hoping to leverage that into some sort of coding "apprenticeship".

@Scott2

Unfortunately all IT jobs here in the UK seem to be much worse paid that equivalent in the US, but that's a really good tip. I've found a few of those sorts of jobs which I will likely apply for as they seem to offer a clear training to acquire programming competence.

[George the original one]

Unfortunately all IT jobs here in the UK seem to be much worse paid that equivalent in the US

This is where I point out the truths exposed in the documentaries 28-Up, 35-Up, 42-Up, etc. Basically, if a UK resident wants a shot at "success" and you're not upperclass, your quickest boost is to emigrate.

[jacob]

@Egg - Point taken. I may be overly representing from the science wars, but one the assertions was that a STEM professor could probably do a decent job as a humanities professor whereas the converse was practically unthinkable. This could be cultural and go back to the essence of the science wars. I've met/heard many a person from the humanities at all levels claiming with some pride that they don't understand math or technology or at a more pedestrian level: how to program their VCR. I have NEVER heard a STEM person proudly stating that they don't know how to read or write.

The inherent difference between the two is that I believe you can fake an understanding in liberal arts to a much much larger degree than what's possible in STEM. See e.g. the Sokal Affair.

In any case, that's sort of irrelevant here.

I think GandK offered the best solution. If you have the ability connect business types with STEM types that is your best bet. Otherwise, maybe one of those intense coding academies might be a good shot. Or as always, make something on your own that other people find useful. Some of these people will potentially recommend you to their boss.

[Peanut]

@Egg - Point taken. I may be overly representing from the science wars, but one the assertions was that a STEM professor could probably do a decent job as a humanities professor whereas the converse was practically unthinkable.

I have NEVER heard a STEM person proudly stating that they don't know how to read or write.

Depends on what level you're teaching, and it has nothing to do with being in a STEM field. I'd say anyone who is fairly well-educated and had some life experience can potentially do a mediocre to decent job teaching History or the like to freshmen and sophomores. Beyond that your students will likely know more than you and know that they do. There is specialized knowledge and skills in every humanities field--it's just more accessible to the general population than differential equations.

And no person period will proudly state that they are illiterate!

@Egg: sorry to derail. Good luck coding! If you always aced maths why not consider statistics or actuarial science--very high paying.

[JamesR]

Egg,

You can absolutely get work as a web developer without a degree. Since you're already focusing on html/css/javascript, I highly recommend focusing on learning React.js. It is the current front-end javascript framework that is taking off, and if you learn it now you'll be well placed for work. Also it's simpler & more modular & easier to maintain than the alternatives ember/angular/backbone.

https://github.com/enaqx/awesome-react#tutorials

Javascript & SQL are the top two programming languages on stackoverflow.com. If you also want to be a "full-stack" developer, you'll need to learn SQL too. I went through the videos at https://www.coursera.org/course/db and it was pretty straightforward, it started with 'relational algebra' which gave a great way to think about it, and then went into the SQL basics.

Ultimately, you'll just need to get your foot in the door at some company.. Maybe as an intern. Try to get work at a place with more than a few developers, they're more likely to follow proper development practices like code reviews and help you learn the other aspects of developing in a team.

Salary-wise, you might be able to get to £60k in 2-3 years. From what I hear, the demand for developers in UK hasn't driven up the salaries as much as the US.

[jacob]

[...] There is specialized knowledge and skills in every humanities field--it's just more accessible to the general population than differential equations.

And no person period will proudly state that they are illiterate!

I believe this is EXACTLY what I said.

[Peanut]

[...] There is specialized knowledge and skills in every humanities field--it's just more accessible to the general population than differential equations.

And no person period will proudly state that they are illiterate!

I believe this is EXACTLY what I said.

? No, you said a STEM person would never state this. The context was STEM vs HUM and my point was anyone can potentially teach the humanities.

[jacob]

@Peanut -

I may be overly representing from the science wars, but one the assertions was that a STEM professor could probably do a decent job as a humanities professor whereas the converse was practically unthinkable. This could be cultural and go back to the essence of the science wars. I've met/heard many a person from the humanities at all levels claiming with some pride that they don't understand math or technology or at a more pedestrian level: how to program their VCR. I have NEVER heard a STEM person proudly stating that they don't know how to read or write.

So we agree that anyone [with a higher education] can potentially teach the humanities. And I think we also agree that the field who can teach the sciences is somewhat more limited.

Which goes to the other point we seem to agree on, namely that it's okay for HUM to be completely ignorant of math (have a working knowledge comparably to a 5th grader) and consequentially many of them are and even say so with some pride. Whereas STEM requires at least some reading and writing (at the HS level) in order to do their work and so no STEM will deliberately or through neglect completely avoid this skill (and keep it at the 5th grade level) and therefore no STEM would be proud in not knowing even the fundamental skill of the humanities.

This asymmetry goes to support the point in the first paragraph.

But we're getting off topic ...

[Peanut]

One final point (sorry Egg):

Which goes to the other point we seem to agree on, namely that it's okay for HUM to be completely ignorant of math (have a working knowledge comparably to a 5th grader) and consequentially many of them are and even say so with some pride. Whereas STEM requires at least some reading and writing (at the HS level) in order to do their work and so no STEM will deliberately or through neglect completely avoid this skill (and keep it at the 5th grade level) and therefore no STEM would be proud in not knowing even the fundamental skill of the humanities.

This asymmetry goes to support the point in the first paragraph.

But we're getting off topic ...

No, I definitely do not agree with this. And it’s not at all been my experience that HUM grad students/PhDs/professors proudly proclaim innumeracy or the like. Especially as nowadays many of them are interested in ‘interdisciplinarity’ which means they try to gain some level of understanding of the sciences to incorporate into their work. A parallel development was that many PhD candidates learned some rudimentary or better coding skills to create web projects for teaching and research. Indeed “Digital Humanities” has been the biggest buzzword in the last ten years, and launched a million grant applications.

[Egg]

Heh, well this has all derailed a bit. But seriously guys, thanks for all the tips. I'll look into them further and keep chugging along in the meanwhile on my basic skills.

[apocryphal]

Have you considered a non-programming computer job? Most IT jobs aren't in programming, sysadmins, network admins, dba's, firewall/security, helpdesk, PC techs etc etc. I 'd guess programmers are around 10% of the IT people from the various places I've worked. It's also easier to get a non-programming job, especially if you don't have a stem degree. In my experience the majority of programmers have a stem degree while the majority of dba's and sysadmins do NOT have a stem degree.

If you decide to go this route make a habit of reading the IT job postings every few weeks and figure out what skills companies are always looking for. Don't get discouraged though, most of the job ads describe people who don't actually exist. See the wikipedia entry for purple squirrel.

Many IT skills can be learned for free using virtualbox and running a few vm's on a PC, unix/linux, databases, firewalls etc can all be installed and played with. It won't make you a master but you can put "experience with" x/y/z on your resume.. ,