Avoiding a work phone (Also Hourly vs Salaried)

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startbyserving
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Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:45 pm

Avoiding a work phone (Also Hourly vs Salaried)

Post by startbyserving »

My employer casually offered me a cell phone a couple months ago, which I declined. (Upon my decline, he jokingly said something like: "But I'd be able to call you on it.") Now I have a request by Email citing he would like to provide me with a cell phone citing I do not always get or respond to Email in a timely manner and he has no way to know when I read my Email.

SO said to clarify that I would not be available when off the clock. I know for this employer this is don't directly address the issue. I work for a micromanaging employer that sees everything as an emergency. It is my understanding that calls on the evenings and weekends are not uncommon. Midnight - 2 am texts and Emails on occasion.

I think the back story / situation is relevant. But right here would be a good stopping point for anyone discouraged by the length of my post.

As far as my job status, I am the general manager for a small corporation of about 20 employees. I handle payroll / hr and over see the inside office employees. This was traditionally a family operation, with one owner, and he now has a partner with some interest in the company. I was asked about 6 months ago if interested in going salaried. I responded that I was not at all interested as I make significantly more per hour outside of work than in the office, and I want him to continue to value my time. (I also stated that I am "loosing money" every hour I am at work because I could be making significant more working on my own projects).
This job is very stressful, as the boss worries constantly about everything, and there has been severe family conflict at times. (His 30 year old son acts and dresses like a thug / teenager and screams at him weekly if not closer to daily.) We've expanded a lot so some worries are justified, while many are him being scared senseless by his loss of control as his company grows.

About a month ago I was given a raise, which in my low cost of living area is appropriate for salaried employees to be making. (We've have several salaried employees making this amount or less). I mentioned that I would need to try and reduce / avoid overtime at this rate and he casually (Passive aggressive?!) asked me if I thought this rate should be salaried or hourly. I responded that I saw a good argument for salaried on this amount, but I was still not interested. I said he is welcome to revise his offer. He said I could keep that rate as hourly, "just don't get any overtime" (As someone that has rarely worked less than a 45-50 hour week in the last year I should have realized the phrase "Just don't get any overtime" doesn't make any sense.)

As far as the phone goes I suppose the obvious response is to directly refuse carrying a company phone outside of work hours. Alternatively I could make it very clear that may increase his ability to contact me, but I may not have it with me / on at all times and that I would only be available for true emergencies. (which I expect would be ignored / any incident to be considered an Emergency by him). I considered demanding 4 hours pay each time I am called or sent a text outside of work. I realized this proposed response was mostly to make a point, as I would expect him to call me for any reason. (I don't need the money so much as I would want him to know that "it is costing him" to call me.)

As far as being salaried goes. To some degree I like being hourly because I have this "illusion" that as time goes by I will have enough of my job learned by other employees earning less that I could spend something like only 35 hours a week in the office. (I say illusion, because over the past year there has been incident after incident causing me to need to spend a lot of time in the office.) And yes I have shared with my employer that I am open to working less hours. To some degree I have tried to motivate myself on occasion to excel, but I get emotionally shot down by micromanaging or family shouting matches before I make any progress.

I see minimal risk of being terminated (Only if I did something severely deserving). I see minimal financial impact personally if I was terminated.

Any input or thoughts on Cell Phone / Salary / Or negotiation phrasing are very valued. I didn't expect to write something this detailed. Perhaps I should copy this post into an Email to boss or send him a link to this thread? :X (Joking somewhat.)

Tyler9000
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Re: Avoiding a work phone (Also Hourly vs Salaried)

Post by Tyler9000 »

Frankly, the cell phone and salary issues sound like symptoms of your overall dissatisfaction with this job rather than syndromes that truly need individual attention. You already sound unhappy, and they keep pressing for even less desirable terms.

But perhaps I'm missing part of the story -- what do you get out of working there that you would miss if it was gone?

George the original one
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Re: Avoiding a work phone (Also Hourly vs Salaried)

Post by George the original one »

Turn cellphone off outside of working hours.

startbyserving
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Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:45 pm

Re: Avoiding a work phone (Also Hourly vs Salaried)

Post by startbyserving »

Tyler has an excellent point. While there are some things, probably very little I would miss. I've had my eyes open for other jobs during the years I've worked here. I have been too picky or unsure what to do next.


As an update. The new partner today informed me of some more new business he is bringing to the company and offered me the option to manage it. (New position). I'll have to see how this goes. If I was further spaced from the main boss I might enjoy my job better. - At this point I at least have a "light at the end of the tunnel" and if things don't get better I at least have some motivation to show some initiative for the time being.

To George, that's a good point. SO's point was I should make it clear upfront what my expectations are. It's evident the purpose is to reach me "when needed" outside work. I am in the office sitting by my desk phone 99% of the time.

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Sclass
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Re: Avoiding a work phone (Also Hourly vs Salaried)

Post by Sclass »

Good to see you're moving away from the cell phone leash situation.

This is a really tough problem. I was in a similar situation. My handlers wanted my cell phone number so they could call weekends and evenings. I was salaried so it really diluted my hourly wage to have them calling me. They were too cheap to offer a phone though. So I solved the problem by not having a phone. I had a prepaid that I never turned on.

I recall laughing about playing back frantic voicemails about servicing this client and that on a weekend that happened weeks in the past. This kind of cost me though. I never got promoted to handler class because I was seen as "unreliable". CEO called on Saturday at my cell, then email (on a laptop left on my desk), then finally on a home phone to come to a powwow at his house to strategize. I didn't respond. I think this is when I was seen as unresponsive and I wasn't to hold any position other than technical from that point on.

So it's hard to say whether shutting down on the weekends is right.

A pal I used to surf with in my twenties used to tell me, "dude you work too hard and take things too seriously. That's why you get piled with so much work. You gotta f..k up strategically every now and then. Then they'll load you less."

At the time I was ambitious and thought he was full of it. But as I became known as a strong technical firefighter, I got hit on all the time to fix this or that emergency. So there is an issue with becoming known as the go to person in a time of crisis.

My pot smoking surf pal was destined not to be this person. In some senses I think he had the right idea.

Small business owners tend to throw everything at their business because it is their one investment with a potentially high ROI. They sometime mistake their employees for fellow stakeholders and expect you to pull with the same intensity. I've seen a lot of situations where a business owner got an employee who pulled loyally only find out they had no ownership. If you're going to be expected to work like an owner, I suggest you demand some sort of performance based compensation or profit sharing.

My favorite example was a first job I had as a kid. The owner had me doing manual labor and said "I don't know why workers hate this job bagging up these parts and applying stickers and shipping them, I can do it all day long." He was showing me how to do the job. I was a smart ass kid and I replied, "that's cause ya pay $100 for those things and you smack some stickers on them and mail them out in exchange for $1000. I'd like doing it too if you gave me $900 each instead of $10/hr."

Sometimes you gotta know when you just have a job and you need to treat it that way. Big profits can be made by wringing value out of a system. You can build wealth, or you can take away somebody else's capital. Making an hourly worker provide many multiples of their salary is a way of skimming off their human capital. Sometimes owners can get myopic and greedy.

Tyler9000
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Re: Avoiding a work phone (Also Hourly vs Salaried)

Post by Tyler9000 »

Sclass wrote:Sometimes owners can get myopic and greedy.
Yep.

Every small business owner I've ever known is legitimately obsessive and crazy at some level. It's not always in a form that negatively affects you personally, but it's there under the surface. It's a self-selecting quality -- the ones that aren't obsessive and crazy usually don't make it past the first few setbacks. It takes a special kinda crazy to believe you have a good business idea in the face of your friends, family, and bank all telling you to give it up and get a real job. So when the owner gets worked up and you don't understand why, it's important to step back and accept that you never will because the company will never be your baby. You just need to establish the terms for your own involvement.

The worst boss I've ever had was the sole owner of a well-known company who you've probably all heard of. Part of the hiring process included signing a document accompanying the company blackberry that stated the owner has the right to call you at any time. I didn't think much of it at the time, but it turns out that the guy did lots of drugs, never slept, and regularly would call you at 3am to berate you for something he probably told you to do the day before. He was a legitimate psychopath, and I quit before the end of my 90-day trial period. I still can't relate at all to the people I know who have worked there for years. That must require a level of detachment from job and pride I can't really comprehend.

@startbyserving -- It doesn't sound like your boss is a psychopath. But it definitely sounds like he's attempting to cross a boundary you're not comfortable with. I've always felt that it's important to find a job with a culture that fits your values. One can do that either by actively building a positive culture or by seeking out an existing one that is already well-established. The choice is up to you, but sitting back and doing nothing will only make you feel more detached.

startbyserving
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Re: Avoiding a work phone (Also Hourly vs Salaried)

Post by startbyserving »

My boss is definitely nuts, but could be short of being a "psychopath". Medical problems along with the fear of growing broke as the company expands has definitely added to his anxious mental state. His adult son acts like he's in a gang sometimes and can rarely speak to each other without being angry and yelling. (Mostly the son yelling and calling his father names.)

I appreciate the outside viewpoints, and you all have really helped me come up with some actions.
1. Continue to look for other jobs, and cast a wider net.
2. Currently only accept cell phone with the understanding there is no expectation for me to answer outside work. (Yeah right, see 3.)
3. Ask for an obscene raise if they push me into becoming salary. (Double my current pay? :D )
4. Go into a a new position where I have some degree of separation from the company's family problems. (Position in new division of the company. New area's are risky, but as I explained above, job stability is not a concern for me financially.)
5. If I haven't found something more fitting: See 1.

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Sclass
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Re: Avoiding a work phone (Also Hourly vs Salaried)

Post by Sclass »

Maybe myopic and greedy are the wrong words to describe the ambitious business owner.

I think they can get "carried away" running their money machine and expect their employees to have that same level of commitment. Anyway, I think we have all seen it, I'm just having trouble describing it. And yeah, there is a line. Some owners cross it but a good many don't.

As for a raise, it depends on how valuable you are to the business. I suspect you are because your boss is calling you in a panic. In this case I would propose a profit sharing or performance based bonus. The last thing an owner wants is a person demanding a raise when there are cash flow issues...which may be why he's stressing out. That's the utility of incentive stock options because you don't mess up revenue when you need to inspire your team to bail water faster. I'm not there so forgive me if I don't know your situation.

So there are a number of ways I see building wealth. You can create something that adds value. You can buy low and sell high (taking other's capital/invested energy). You can repackage some off the shelf stuff and sell it for a higher price than the ingredients. Or you can round up a bunch of draft animals and make them do a chore they could care less for to get hay and a barn. This is like forming a team of employees who don't know what to do and siphoning off their human capital by telling them what to do and selling their labor at a higher rate. There's nothing wrong with this but the dynamics get interesting when the farmer starts to expect the ox to pull smarter so the farmer can get more tasty grain.

arrrrgon
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Re: Avoiding a work phone (Also Hourly vs Salaried)

Post by arrrrgon »

I'm confused on one point. You said you can make more money on your own. Why don't you?

startbyserving
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Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:45 pm

Re: Avoiding a work phone (Also Hourly vs Salaried)

Post by startbyserving »

When I could keep my job to a 40 hour work week, I was doing my own activities on the side. Once I had some experience, my own activities became very generous. (while only spending 10-20 hours a week. This felt like WORK though, so I felt like I was working 2 jobs.) This did cause me to question whether I should continue to keep the job with my employer. I stopped all activities on the side about 6 months ago. (There were a number of reasons. The main reason was there is an issue I need to take care of prior to continuing.) I hope to be able to resume in the next 2-3 months.

For now I've substituted personal things like going to the gym frequently, and have not directly told the boss that I have stopped own activites on the side. I don't want it known my time is available, because I don't consider it to be. I will need the time very soon, so no point in starting "bad habits" like working too much. When negotiating raises it often comes down to: "How much they need you" vs "How much you need them". In a negotiation I plan to focus on how much they need me, but both can be important points that work together. (Compare: I can do great things for the company Vs I have a job offer of $XX,XXX per year.)

As far as motivations for keeping current employment (While I was doing other activities on the side.) I had several things holding me back. Most can be traced to the fact that I wasn't yet introduced to ERE at that point. Majority of these are generic and apply to most people or side activities in general. I will write what the problem was then. (followed by my current thoughts)

1. Getting my own insurance and understanding paperwork seemed like a huge barrier. (Not really as difficult as I was making it to be)
2. I didn't feel feel comfortable that SO would be okay with me not having steady employment. (I learned SO would be okay, as long as I am pulling my own weight. I.e. not sitting at home sitting on the couch all day.)
3. Side activities was not explainable to work I wanted to most people. (I am not concerned with this anymore)
4. I didn't have very much savings at that point. (Still less than 1 years pay now, but I am not worried about my job financially.)
5. There are some limits to the "Volume" of side things I could do. At best, I could replace what I get from work. (But work less hours.)
5. Unrelated to the reason I put side activities on hold: The longevity of the side activities are questionable. Things could very well end overnight. This is a big one. Yes - nothing in life is Guaranteed. The point is, I don't see this as sustainable far in the future. There is less than 1% percent chance I could be doing this in two years. (I need diverse streams of income.)
6. In many ways I don't mind the "job" my employer offers. (I just don't like dealing with emotionally unstable owners and family. I am continuing to look at other options.)
7. I was scared of "Not having a job." (I would consider this my first "serious job" , so I don't know anything else. (I probably need some new experiences elsewhere.)

I may respond differently next time around if that happens. I have been lurking around the ERE site for about 2 months now. I am working on learning various skills and methods of generating income (and cutting expenses) to provide a greater safety net. ha ha, computer programming seems to be a common theme here. Probably something I could pick up with some practice. I've clicked through some of the links shared in the past. I just see that as taking some time before it can provide me with a revenue stream. (Since I only have a limited amount of time to contribute to learning. Time availability of course would increase without my current employment.)

I appreciate the question. Always good to learn from the past. - Especially your own.

Stahlmann
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Re: Avoiding a work phone (Also Hourly vs Salaried)

Post by Stahlmann »

My favorite example was a first job I had as a kid. The owner had me doing manual labor and said "I don't know why workers hate this job bagging up these parts and applying stickers and shipping them, I can do it all day long." He was showing me how to do the job. I was a smart ass kid and I replied, "that's cause ya pay $100 for those things and you smack some stickers on them and mail them out in exchange for $1000. I'd like doing it too if you gave me $900 each instead of $10/hr."
it's funnier with every abstraction level of understanding it :lol:

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