Best Majors for ERE

[theanimal]

+1 to Jacob and Ego

I initially was majoring in Finance because it was a "good" degree to have and once I found out about ERE it was a quick way to achieve FI. However, I dreaded the classes and the way they presented the material.

I'm glad I switched my mindset and realized ERE is about much more than having/obtaining the money. I am now majoring in entrepreneurship, something that I enjoy. It makes the experience much easier than slogging through something you hate, just because its perceived as the best route by others.

[TopHatFox]

Sorry about that, when I said I didn't care about affinity or whether I like it, I wanted a wide sense of possible ERE majors--that I could then decide whether to pursue or not, based on my affinity/desire.

My goal is to get out of school/work/death mentality as fast as possible--30-ish, with 20k a year from investments--while still being happy in the process. I guess I just really want to be able to do what I want: be able to read as much as I want, be able to travel as much as I want, be able to pursue anything, whether a job, class, or hobby, without worrying about providing myself a way of living.

I think this freedom would make me happy. Specifics like investments (which I am still learning about) and retirement age might change, but the ultimate goal of freedom will be consistent.

[Chad]

Ego and Jacob clarify it nicely.

Ego said what I was going to say:

Consistently having to excel (or be adequate) at something you hate is a dangerous practice. Do anything long enough and it becomes who you are. Or, better yet, you become it. Pick a major solely for the cash it will generate, then get the job suited perfectly to the major, do it long enough and you will lose what it is that makes you you.

This absolutely sucks! I did it. I switched to accounting my freshman year of college because I could "get a job." A few years after graduating, it was all I could do to get out of bed in the morning and go to work. I mean that literally. I hated my life.

If Amherst or whoever is paying for you to go to Amherst...you go to Amherst. If they will pay for a double major that would probably be the way to go. As suggested earlier, a STEM degree and liberal arts degree together would be a nice combination for a lot of options. Plus, it wouldn't take you much longer, but don't do this if you are uninterested.

[vivacious]

Ya. I meant to say that more explicitly also. It might sound good in your head picking something that is in demand and then just toughing it out for a few years to save money. But the reality of actually doing that if it's something you don't really like isn't very fun.

And it is true that one way or another most people don't end up doing what they studied really. Sometimes people start off in their field and end up somewhere they wouldn't have really thought of.

[TheWanderingScholar]

As a fellow college student who is after ERE ideals, choose something that you like to do. And if you want a degree that is more "job opportunistic" I guess you can double major. But honestly I am a Geography major with a minor in GIS because I like the broad subject that it is, not because it will guarantee me a money-making career.

[Seneca]

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ti ... 20899.html

I personally think there is real wisdom there despite being on the crappy Daily Ticker.

[Spartan_Warrior]

@Seneca: How do you think that applies to this topic?

I read this article and the original blog post yesterday and thought both were terrible. More smug stereotyping with a typically careerist slant. This comment about sums it up:

This whole post is pretty much reductive, knee-jerk bullshit. Gen-Y is unhappy not because they think they are special and refuse to work hard. They are unhappy because since they were born (early 1980s) the institutions that had held this country together for the previous 50 years have been systematically dismantled. The boomer (and now X) generations 'worked hard' by enriching themselves and chasing speculative bubbles for the past 25 years, squandering the what had been the most prosperous era in the history of the world. And they continue to do so through entitlement programs that will be broke by the time we qualify. Wealth inequality is the biggest it's been since the gilded age and economic mobility (especially for young people) is worse than any other western democracy. And you think it comes down to 'feelings?'

Well, at least you got to use that picture of a unicorn vomiting a rainbow so I guess this post isn't a total waste.

Although now that I know blog posts can go viral just by attaching a racial slur to a few simplistic and meaningless generational stereotypes, I'm scrambling to come up with a blog post of my own involving a derogatory acronym about Baby Boomers. I'm thinking CHINKS (Can't Have It Now, Kids, Sorry!) or maybe HONKEYS (Hedonistic Oldsters Now Killing Entitlements for gen Y Suckers).

[Dragline]

I thought the premise was wrong -- I don't see Gen-Y as being particularly unhappy. Unrealistic or uncertain -- yeah, sure. But the biggest complaint I usually hear about the young is "How can they be so damned optimistic? Don't they know the world is about to end in [pick your favorite] apocalyptic scenario!"

Another observation -- the author/interviewee was born on the Gen X/Gen Y cusp and sounds much more like the former than the latter. And you're right -- its seems like mostly word-marketing to drive traffic to his blogs and websites. I suspect he's read a lot of Tim Ferriss.

[Dragline]

As a fellow college student who is after ERE ideals, choose something that you like to do. And if you want a degree that is more "job opportunistic" I guess you can double major. But honestly I am a Geography major with a minor in GIS because I like the broad subject that it is, not because it will guarantee me a money-making career.

Don't mean to put you on the spot, but what is your plan for the first couple years after college? I'm not talking about a career. Just what do you see yourself doing? And are you getting a "free" ride like Zalo or will you have debt?

[Spartan_Warrior]

@Dragline: Really? I would be very surprised if the blogger (Urban) is familiar with Tim Ferriss, who advocates against careerism. (Maybe he's familiar with Ferriss's blogging and advertising techniques.) Like I said, his entire position is totally careerist. "Pay your dues in your 20s, do grunt work", etc, etc. All this talking about Gen Y needing to humble their expectations. So working two minimum wage jobs with a Master's degree and a mortgage-worth of student loans isn't humbled enough?

The interviewer ends with:

"So, message for Millennials: Put your head down and work!"

Please. Pardon me while I go throw up (rainbows).

I also disagree with the premise that Millennials are any more unhappy than other generations, though if they are, I think they have a right to be. I just want to shake these kinds of people and shout, "It's the economy, stupid!" Telling me to feel better about eating shit for 50 years working to enrich some corporation, or accusing me of being "entitled" (for wanting to live indoors and eat food) is not, to me, intelligent or helpful.

(Wondering if this is worthy of its own thread to avoid derailing this one.)

[Dragline]

@Dragline: Really? I would be very surprised if the blogger (Urban) is familiar with Tim Ferriss, who advocates against careerism. (Maybe he's familiar with Ferriss's blogging and advertising techniques.)

Yes that's what I had in mind -- Ferriss is really a marketing machine when it comes right down to it. I poked at a couple to the guy's blogs and they had that "hacking life" meme to them. I don't think Urban really cares what he is talking about so long as it creates a buzz. That's why it has that "I've heard this before" quality to it. [And sorry about the derailing. Will shut up about this now.]

[TheWanderingScholar]

@dragline: No problem about putting me on the spot. Whatever debt I have (which I will try to keep minimal) is going to be paid off considering I am going to one of the cheaper in state schools for only three years besides the usual four year (dual credits courses are amazing). And also my parents are going to foot most of the bill*. How I am going to pay it off is by at the very least getting an entrance job in the petroleum industry however whatever job seems the interesting and pays a decent ($40k) amount will always be up for consideration, even if it has nothing to do with GIS.

*That being said I will create a secret fund for paying them back. It is the least I can do besides the usual graduate college in a timely manner and get a job.

[Spartan_Warrior]

@Dragline: Well, I can agree to that!

Back on the topic: IMO (and in my experience), regardless of whether you major in something "career-friendly" or not, the biggest factors in your ability to land a job after college are: 1) who you know* and 2) very polished interviewing skills.

*Do internships during college. Maybe in a few different fields if you can. I would not be in my current job if I hadn't met and impressed industry insiders during a college internship.

[Seneca]

I posted that link because passion keeps coming up.

There are many things about Ferriss’ stuff I don’t agree with, but I found a breakthrough idea reading his books...you don't have to find your passion in your job. (I probably would’ve been better advised to go back and find a link to a topical Ferriss blog post, this one just happened to bubble up in my browser.) Ferriss posits our job is best optimized to fund/enable your passions, because you're not likely to find your passion in your job, especially early in your career. As Spartan says, he's anti-careerism.

I think the mainstream message you need to be passionate about your work is perfectly careerist, afterall, if you plan on doing something 40 years, best to make sure it doesn’t suck for you right?

This is exactly why I don't think passion for work matters too much early on the path to ERE, at least not as much as optimizing cashflows and learning skills as soon as possible, particularly in light of the time value of money. Look at most of the pre-FI journals on the forum, I think they support Ferriss' assertion that most people will never be passionate about their jobs, at least, until they don’t need a job. IME Millenials are much more likely to delay getting started because they spend too much time “searching” for something many will never find. Not to mention, all the ramifications of the debt load most will carry coming out of university.

The whole premise of ERE is you can get there in 5 years. To get there you have two inputs to optimize, learning skills and earning money. I think for the young person interested in pursuing ERE ideals, they should work both ASAP, regardless of passion for what is generating your cash. There is lots of time for passion in your life, and it seems to me finding work you’re passionate about is much easier to find with both a bit of experience under your belt, and no worry about the pay.

[Dragline]

@dragline: No problem about putting me on the spot. Whatever debt I have (which I will try to keep minimal) is going to be paid off considering I am going to one of the cheaper in state schools for only three years besides the usual four year (dual credits courses are amazing). And also my parents are going to foot most of the bill*. How I am going to pay it off is by at the very least getting an entrance job in the petroleum industry however whatever job seems the interesting and pays a decent ($40k) amount will always be up for consideration, even if it has nothing to do with GIS.

*That being said I will create a secret fund for paying them back. It is the least I can do besides the usual graduate college in a timely manner and get a job.

Thanks, Y&W. You can pay them back by being self-sufficient from the get-go after school is done. My experience is that that's all most parents want to see in terms of pay-back.

Second question -- how does your degree or course choice impact your ability to meet the short-term goal of getting the entry job in the petroleum industry? What are the qualifications you need for that? (BTW, I would have to view the second answer as a non-answer because it lacks any specificity.)

You see, these are the two questions I think Zalo should be asking himself -- (Q1) what am I going to do next (not forever -- just next) -- that gives you (A1)? and then (Q2) is there something I should be doing now to make sure that (A1) actually happens. If you don't answer (Q1) and get (A1) for yourself first, I don't know how you answer (Q2) other than with the default (A2), which is "whatever feels good right now".

Now its quite possible that the answer to Q2 is "nothing", in which case you can go with the default A2, but I would suspect that that is not usually the case. Lots of people screw themselves by just never answering Q1 in any specific form. In that case, you get to live by what someone else has planned for you, who may be chosen at random. And then A1 then often becomes "not much."

[TheWanderingScholar]

@Dragline:
My course work is tangentially next to the petroleum industry in that Geology overlaps with it a lot, so if getting a minor in Geology is needed I can easily do that. Not only but GIS/Remote Sensing (classes that I am going to take) also help find where the oil is at, where is buried at, and from there I can theoretically help engineers figure out how plan the dig towards the oil/shale. My concentration in Environment is also useful if a company needs someone to minimize risk of environmental damage i.e. Luminant.
The reason I chose Geography over Geology is because I need less lab-course work, more varied in potential careers, and overall more interesting.

http://www.exprodat.com/Blogs/blog_Top- ... d-Gas-.htm

^Also this.

[Spartan_Warrior]

Essentially I agree that the question Zalo should be asking is "what am I going to do next" at this point in his life. Where I think I/Jacob/Ego were coming from in our responses is whether college/education itself should be tailored solely to "what you do next" (especially given that for ERErs "what you do next" may not last very long) or if indeed it should be more broadly applicable to "what am I going to do forever".

I think that's a pretty important question too, but I may be in the minority. I understand the common conception of a college education nowadays is simply as a stepping stool into some career field. Given the expenses around college, for most people this may very well be the best way of looking at it.

Personally, I went to college at the time simply because "it's what you're supposed to do". Not proud of it, but that's the truth. I then decided on Computer Science as a major because that was "what I'm going to do next". I had no passion or interest in it (although I do indeed now work in IT fields) and quickly realized it was not applicable to who I am or what I see as my life's journey.

Finally, I double-majored in Philosophy and Psychology. I thought this would give me the broadest foundation for logical thinking, insight into people and relationships, the world and my place in it. In other words, I eventually opted to study "what I'm going to do forever" instead of "what I'm going to do next". I don't regret the decision. If I would change anything, it wouldn't be my degree, but maybe whether I went to college at all. (I will admit, I had already gained the aforementioned connections through internships before I changed majors.)

I graduated in summer 2008 at the peak of the recession and still had a full-time job offer in a matter of months... working for a software developer, sans Computer Science degree. My starting salary was under $40k, but after a few strategic job hops, I now make nearly $80k at age 27, with a very flexible position that--as Ferriss would advocate--allows me to support my real passions.

YMMV.

[Dragline]

Es (I will admit, I had already gained the aforementioned connections through internships before I changed majors.)

I graduated in summer 2008 at the peak of the recession and still had a full-time job offer in a matter of months... working for a software developer, sans Computer Science degree. My starting salary was under $40k, but after a few strategic job hops, I now make nearly $80k at age 27, with a very flexible position that--as Ferriss would advocate--allows me to support my real passions.

Thanks -- I think you illustrate what I was trying to say better than I was saying it. Look at it conversely -- if you had not taken some few classes and done the internships in computer, would you have been able to get that position and be on the way to FI? And what would you have done in the alternate universe where you went straight for psychology and philosophy, never learned any programming and never made those connections?

In your case, that was enough to prepare for what you planned to do next.

[Seneca]

I strongly agree with where you're both going, Spartan and Dragline.

I left a job I had more specific passion about, for one that was more enabling of a Renaissance lifestyle and am overall happier for it too. This might sound a bit at cross purposes because previously it was often hard to tell where work stopped and play started, but at the same time, it made other demands of time/lifestyle that were not aligned to this bigger goal.

This is the reason I felt the need to bring it up as I've personally watched this trendy idea of "passion" or "do what you love", without keeping in mind a greater purpose, catch out many people of the current university demographic.

Sorry for the intellectually lazy link.

[Ego]

(Q1) what am I going to do next (not forever -- just next) -- that gives you (A1)? and then (Q2) is there something I should be doing now to make sure that (A1) actually happens. If you don't answer (Q1) and get (A1) for yourself first, I don't know how you answer (Q2) other than with the default (A2), which is "whatever feels good right now".

Now its quite possible that the answer to Q2 is "nothing", in which case you can go with the default A2, but I would suspect that that is not usually the case. Lots of people screw themselves by just never answering Q1 in any specific form. In that case, you get to live by what someone else has planned for you, who may be chosen at random. And then A1 then often becomes "not much."

False dilemma. Just because I do not have every step in my life planned out from here - or even the next step - does not mean I automatically default to "whatever feels good right now."

Framing it the way you have above creates a serious problem. It creates the impression that only failures don't know their next steps. In reality, being able to cope when the next step is unknown or obscured is itself a skill. It is learned, by putting oneself in the position where we must cope with the unknown. That's when we get comfortable not knowing and get good at being able to improvise the next step.

Filling in the unknown with "a plan" or "the next step" for no other reason than because the unknown is uncomfortable or inconvenient is no plan at all. Its sole purpose is to eliminate the unknown. To fill the void.

Void filling results in some of the wackiest decisions.