How will you evaluate this job offer

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LiberateMind
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:18 pm

How will you evaluate this job offer

Post by LiberateMind »

Hi All,

Female /35 years/ IT Industry.

Pay before leaving the job : x
Financials : Half way through FI. Spouse is working full time for around 1.3x pay.

I have left my job at Dec last year with x pay. Main reason being due to health (as trying to start for a family), salary ( people with similar capabilities are paid more), no progression, and politics. Spending my time right now on learning new technologies (with a over a decade of IT experience) Now from the company there are providing an offer for the same job at 2x pay with some additional responsibilities and a better title .

Yesterday my manager reached out to know whether I am interested. He started with 2x pay and then during the discussion dropped to full time will provide 1.6x pay or 4days/week with similar pay as before. I might be able to negotiate till 2x pay as that is the band it is approved. The thing that bothered me though is how quickly he reduced the pay during the conversation. The philosophy is get as much as possible with as little provided the people you are negotiating with has no other offer.

Pros:
- Comparatively good pay for the remote position with good flexibility
- Option to move into a generic role with exposure to data science.
- Don't have experience to get the same pay in other opportunities.

Cons :
- Lack of trust.
- Corporate politics at its peak. If I take up the job I will essentially become his team and has to support the decisions irrespective of the values it is based on.

I have to provide the decision by end of this week. I am conflicted as I didn't like the kind of person whom I was becoming in the job and the opportunity provided is a good stepping stone in terms of title and salary for the future career.

Can you please provide with feedback on how would you approach the problem?

PS: Edited the post to remove identifying details in real life.
Last edited by LiberateMind on Thu Jun 03, 2021 1:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

ertyu
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Re: How will you evaluate this job offer

Post by ertyu »

I would personally take this job, do the minimum time the industry sees as "decent," and leverage the nicer title and broader experience into getting another, better paid job with less of a clown for a boss. Whether this is what you should do, though, depends on you. You know the job will suck. Question is, will you be able to tolerate it and not let it get to you while you use it to get what you want.

Btw, given that you don't want this job that much, I would have no hesitation to write back to boss with some version of, "hey, yes I am interested but only at 2x pay." You have nothing to lose if they say no. They are probably willing to pay 2x and the lowballing is to manipulate you away from negotiating for anything *above* 2x. So ask for 2x bravely.

LiberateMind
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Re: How will you evaluate this job offer

Post by LiberateMind »

Thanks for the reply ertyu. I do plan to negotiate the salary and not accept what they provide by default.
Question is, will you be able to tolerate it and not let it get to you while you use it to get what you want.
I think this captures the essence clearly along with identity / integrity conflict. The main idea behind the job offer is requesting full commitment while they go through implementing visions ( at least before with bit unrealistic timelines/expectations) . They know me too well, that once I accept things , I used to get it done on time while maintaining good relationships during my entire tenure there (at the cost of overworking / stress / being too flexible). For me maintaining my reputation and commitment is paramount in my entire professional career. I am afraid it might end up in tatters because of this offer. Boundaries are not respected in this org. by one person or another. Even though my manager will hep to protect me in this area to meet the deadlines. This will become difficult when I have to connect with said persons for another project.

Scott 2
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Re: How will you evaluate this job offer

Post by Scott 2 »

Lead implies you'll be responsible for other people doing the work, likely with no authority over them. Is that true and something you want?

If you say no, are you prepared to be left behind by your peers at the same company, or leave the company? It's unlikely another promotion opportunity arises in the near term. I declined a promotion, had the decision impact my progression 2 years later, then 2 years after that.

It's hard for me to envision taking on a bigger role, on a new team, with new tech - then succeeding part time and remote. Part time seems likely to end up full time plus, only with less pay.

Frita
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Re: How will you evaluate this job offer

Post by Frita »

What are your dealbreakers and red flags? (I find it’s helpful to define these prior to decision making and continue to refine based on experience/observations.)

Personally, I would run from this offer. Lack of trust and dishonesty (in the first conversation regarding financial compensation no less) are red flags for me. Having to be an unethical person’s henchman is a dealbreaker in my book. All one can expect in such a position working for such a person is more of the same (at best) or worse (more likely).

My integrity is priceless and not worth any amount of money. I have seen the majority of people sellout in my career, usually for some money/title/stuff/comfort/attention/acceptance/ego gratification. It can be hard to choose and follow one’s own, often non-linear, path. There are costs...and benefits.

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Seppia
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Re: How will you evaluate this job offer

Post by Seppia »

I may be seeing this through the lenses of a salaryman, but:

What’s the downside of grabbing the money?
You seem to have no respect and no attachment to the company, you have no current alternatives and they’re offering to double your salary + give you a better title (= better opportunities outside)

Not taking this offer will not change the fact that you don’t like where you are, plus you’ll be leaving money and a better title on the table.

It’s a no brainer for me.

Western Red Cedar
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Re: How will you evaluate this job offer

Post by Western Red Cedar »

I think @Seppia has some good advice. I was in a similar position at your age a couple of years ago and a friend told me that you're likely to do the same amount of work whether you take the promotion or not. I didn't take it, but he was right and I've been working more for the same amount of pay. If you stay with this company for the next 12-24 months, you'll likely be putting out a similar amount of effort whether you take the promotion or not.

With that said, I'm glad I didn't move into management (at a 10-15% pay raise) because I was really stressed and dealing with chronic anxiety as a result of work-related pressure. Doubling the salary may have changed my thought process though. My promotion would have resulted in a 10-15k salary bump, which just wasn't worth it.

My advice is to focus on what you really want out of life, what is most important to you right now, and how your professional environment will impact those goals. If you are halfway to FI and have a working partner, then compound interest is working in your favor. The money will work itself out.

If you really want to start a family, you should prioritize that as soon as possible. That doesn't necessarily preclude you from taking the promotion.

And make sure to get at least 2x the salary if you decide to go for it. You'll be judged off of results. If you can produce quality in 30 -35hours, nobody is going to care. If you negotiate 3/4 time, they'll probably expect the same output.

LiberateMind
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Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:18 pm

Re: How will you evaluate this job offer

Post by LiberateMind »

@Scott 2,

You have raised some good points and it helped me in steering the conversation.
Lead implies you'll be responsible for other people doing the work, likely with no authority over them. Is that true and something you want?
Right now in the process of clarifying responsibilities. I will discuss about level of authority (an important one) as well. I will be having a team to report under me there might be some resistance but not too much.
If you say no, are you prepared to be left behind by your peers at the same company, or leave the company? It's unlikely another promotion opportunity arises in the near term. I declined a promotion, had the decision impact my progression 2 years later, then 2 years after that.
I can imagine many distinct instances where I have not utilized the opportunities properly hence stagnated in my career. One on MBA from a reputed college, another one opportunity to be team lead with growth as it might affect one person who is narcissistic anyway and another one with a 50% pay hike. I seem to be on self-sabotaging behavior for a while and it has affected me drastically further down the line. I don't want to repeat the mistake, look past and say I could have done it but didn't. I am trying to break that pattern, hence opening up for advice here.
It's hard for me to envision taking on a bigger role, on a new team, with new tech - then succeeding part time and remote.
I will be provided exposure to new tech, but leading team on old tech. The team is remote anyways as people are from different locations. Part time also, I am thinking about it, but might need that flexibility for few months.

LiberateMind
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Re: How will you evaluate this job offer

Post by LiberateMind »

@Frita,
What are your dealbreakers and red flags? (I find it’s helpful to define these prior to decision making and continue to refine based on experience/observations.)
I haven't given much thought about this, thanks for this one. Will think about it and come back.
Personally, I would run from this offer. Lack of trust and dishonesty (in the first conversation regarding financial compensation no less) are red flags for me. Having to be an unethical person’s henchman is a deal-breaker in my book. All one can expect in such a position working for such a person is more of the same (at best) or worse (more likely).
I have come to understand the rock and hard place they are in right now if I don't come in. So it is a person grasping at straws and am going to ignore it in this instance. My main thinking right now is I can always break things of , but I cannot get back in once this opportunity evaporated. Of course character is not for sale and they kind of openly agreed to it. Your post is kind of hard hitting one, and making me evaluate the scenarios I might be exposed to.

LiberateMind
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Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:18 pm

Re: How will you evaluate this job offer

Post by LiberateMind »

@Seppia,

I am more going through identity crisis right now, than anything else. You definitely helped me to move the needle towards taking the job, once I get a clear picture of what I am getting myself into will do it.
Not taking this offer will not change the fact that you don’t like where you are, plus you’ll be leaving money and a better title on the table.

ertyu
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Joined: Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:31 am

Re: How will you evaluate this job offer

Post by ertyu »

You could also take the job and be very intentional about how you want to use it. For instance, if you feel like you can take it or leave it, you can set the conscious intention to set boundaries. You can use it as a site for saying no practice. Or for "I don't give in to jerks" practice. Or "I take breaks every 2 hours to reconnect with my higher self in the bathrooms" practice -- idk, these are just suggestions, the main idea here is to think about how *you* would like to be on the job and practice being that way. If you can take the job or leave it, what's the worst that can happen?

rube
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Location: Europe (NL)

Re: How will you evaluate this job offer

Post by rube »

I am with Seppia, seems you don't have anything to lose.
That said, if the place doesn't improve (most likely) you should get out of there, perhaps after having used this new role as a stepping stone.

Salathor
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Re: How will you evaluate this job offer

Post by Salathor »

I wouldn't be put out by the 2x talk falling to 1.6x. I'd say he's either a bad negotiator who tipped his hand early or, as a previous commenter said, they maybe have a 'secret max' of 2.3x (for example) and are giving you the 1.6 - 2.0 band to keep away from it. Either way, you can't allow yourself to get bent out of shape over salary negotiations. Either get an offer you're willing to accept or walk away, but don't take that part of it personally.

Scott 2
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Re: How will you evaluate this job offer

Post by Scott 2 »

If Lead implies hiring and firing, your are moving into management. It is a career change. People and politics become your top priority.

Andy Dufresne
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Re: How will you evaluate this job offer

Post by Andy Dufresne »

Assuming kids >> job (the reason you quit in the first place), then:

IF the job does not interfere with your ability to have a healthy pregnancy, take it. Assuming you get pregnant 6-12 months after you take the job, you'll have the most natural "out" of the job possible (if you decide to be a stay at home mom, but when you then wish to return your title and pay will be relevant as you will have been at the position enough time (assuming it's not in 2050).

Also, from a simple RE perspective, 2X should mean a substantially shorter time period to FI/RE...

LiberateMind
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:18 pm

Re: How will you evaluate this job offer

Post by LiberateMind »

@Western Red Cedar,
I have pretty clear idea on what do I want from life. Most concern is about how one should not affect the other. So trying to work it out.

@Scott2,
This would be a role in management and which includes hiring and firing. Both jobs are bit tough for me.

@ertyu,
I am planning on some boundaries for me. Enforcing it would take a strength of character which I hope to develop.

@rube, The pre-requisite is commitment from the manager for 18 months , he put in lot of political capital to get this offer and flexibility. So I have to stick for 18 months or walk away now.

@Andy Dufresne, It is up-to me to not given into stress. No one is going to force me on anything but most likely opposition would be in passive aggressive.

The role defined as a combo of development, managerial and researching new tech and moving into them. I am going to ask them to remove one among the three as managing all three would be difficult. Thank you all for chiming in.. I am going to take it with few clear boundaries , this weekend is for setting up options for me and then reply on Monday. Will keep you posted how it goes.

Thank you virtual friends for helping me out to make a clear decision and making me see the situation from all the sides.

rube
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Location: Europe (NL)

Re: How will you evaluate this job offer

Post by rube »

Good luck with your decision(s) and negotiaton(s) liberateMind.

Scott 2
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Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:34 pm

Re: How will you evaluate this job offer

Post by Scott 2 »

Best of luck.

One thought - Rather than say no to additional responsibility, a manger is expected negotiate priorities and the resources to meet them. The game is to create needs, so you can grow your team, people, and personal power/influence.

Not to say you are ready for all that on day one, but I would consider it when deciding how to frame "no".

LiberateMind
Posts: 182
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:18 pm

Re: How will you evaluate this job offer

Post by LiberateMind »

@Scott2,

Understood your point. But then to my knowledge the team is already burnt out due to the workload. So I have to navigate it with prudence.

Update:

On Monday I had a call with the manager and listed my priorities as Pay, New Technology and Work Load. Opted for 4 days/week and then reply was then is previous pay okay? I said will go for 1.8x pay only. He said will call the next day. Finally today got a call and note from him today evening saying to apply formally and the discussion on Pay and HR requirements would be done next week. So do I have to negotiate for my pay again, seriously? Pay is the hook that got me considering this position in first place. Again on the new technology , he said can take it once I come in full time and from the talks getting the idea he is trying to push the full time date far away. Looks like I will be working on the 50% previous role + managerial role now. Again there was a hint that I might have to fire an employee in the team.Might be a problem employee was under his team for a decade and was a problematic one for past 4 years. So am I going to be the mob enforcer?

Except for the pay and title change, I don't see any benefits. Looks like politics is going to be the same, people are going to be same.Had me rethinking for a while.

Frita
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Re: How will you evaluate this job offer

Post by Frita »

Hm, this (the ongoing pay “negotiations” and hoop jumping) sounds like the runaround. I notice that a position of power with an “impressive” title is all the incentive some people need. The pay can be promised big and then disappear to more of senior staff range instead of management. Perhaps it feels more secure. I dunno.

If you have to work more to fill in the gaps and have the stress of being a henchman*, is the additional pay worth it? Would it be sustainable? At what cost to you and your family?

* Why has the direct supervisor not addressed this? Are there procedures and, if so, were they followed? It is adequate documentation to support this decision if challenged or would you be scapegoated? (I have seen these price-of-entry henchman situations and it was a snapshot of SOP.)

Good luck whatever you decide!

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