Advice on climbing the ladder

[dashh]

Hello I am new to the forum and ERE. I started with MMM a few years ago and then made my way over to the ERE forum.

So I was hoping to get some advice regarding people's experiences with C-level execs. I have read about the Gervais principle and also Jacob's blog post regarding careerism and wanted to share my current observations. I am working in a start-up and have a lot of exposure to the C-level execs of the company. I have found that my experiences and interactions with them always leave me with a weird feeling that I cannot identify. They seem to have a skill of projecting a different image of themselves to the general company versus their peers. It is a quality that I am beginning to really disdain and can't ever see myself being able to portray or master. To me it is totally fake and just comes off as total BS but other employee's seem to buy into it like I did many years ago.

I guess it bothers me because I can't tell if my ego is just feeling inadequate because I may never be at that "level" or if it is something different and a good thing I don't have this quality. I am just curious if others have observed this when dealing with leadership roles in their careers? We constantly hear the message that the goal is to climb the ladder, but the closer I get to the higher rungs and see how the sausage is really made the more I feel like I want to just jump off the ladder.

Is it a personality type thing or is there more to it than that from your experience?

[Optimal_Solution]

Have you read the entire seven part series on the Gervais Principle at Ribbonfarm? It is an entertaining and insightful read. The double speak that you noted from sociopathic leadership is fairly well covered.

[C40]

There is more to it.

As one anecdotal example: I used to work for a large company (In the U.S., they have over 25,000 employees). I didn't have any involvement with Chief-level employees (except one who was titled a VP but in other companies could be called a Chief, as he reported to the president), but I had a lot with one level down - Vice Presidents.. For the last three years I worked there, I'd sit in on staff meetings of that Chief/VP and his direct reports (a mix of VPs and Directors), and regularly have discussions and work with with members of that team.

My thoughts relating to your post:
1 - In this company, the, uhhh, "personal credibility/quality/autheticity" of those guys near the top of the org chart was very high. I can't think of a single one who seemed ~'two-faced' in the way that you describe. So, what you saw definitely DOES NOT exist everywhere. I definitely did see some of that from people at the same levels of our parent company, and at same levels of other companies within our corporation. (noting this last one to confirm that I didn't just have rose-colored glasses about my company)
2 - That said, while I originally thought it would be cool to get promoted high up, as I did some and learned 'how the sausage was made', I decided I didn't want to do that and intentionally topped out in roles where I didn't have to deal with those problems much. (for other reasons... even if the leadership are all wonderful, the work can still really suck)

[basuragomi]

C-level at a start-up seems like it would attract that type. Of the C-level people I've met in my chosen industry, the ones running small marginal companies/start-ups were complete bullshitters, gave off the vibe of used car salesmen. They constantly try to read you and adjust their self-presentation on the fly. It's pretty obvious and very offputting. I could see how their management style would lead to dysfunction/collapse were they running a "real" business. The ones that run billion-dollar companies were honest, straightforward and much better leaders/dealmakers because of it. Or maybe they were just much better at acting. I'm sure there are honest genuine leaders at these smaller companies, but they definitely seem to be the minority.

[bostonimproper]

Could you describe a bit more what you mean?

Part of the job of being a senior leader is to inspire creativity and get others to take action toward the company's goals of their own accord, ergo putting on a face that's inspiring, open, calm, controlled, etc. But when you're doing day to day work, you need to get down to brass tacks quickly, and the language and demeanor for that sort of work is more directed, blunt, and critical. Not sure if you're picking on that sort of code switching or something else.

[IlliniDave]

Just one person's experience ...

I work for a megacorp, same one for 33+ years. I've been around long enough to see many of my contemporaries make it fairly far up the ladder, responsible for the efforts of hundreds or even thousands of people.

Being a "big boss" is a job role just like cranking out sloc or chewing up cpu time trying to model and predict the results of expensive experiments, or screwing nut A onto bolt B. So it could be just a matter of people performing their job function in the way they think it should be performed. Generally speaking I've found such people (people who went from everyday coworkers to big bosses) generally personable dealing with individuals, but it is a different story seeing them try to direct a room full of strong-willed people, maybe with competing visions of how things should be done. Yep, there's probably a skill, or at least aptitude, to that. I don't see that as an inherently bad thing, or being "two-faced" or such. That's not to say that bad apples don't exist at that level.

I determined fairly early on that I did not have the desire to be in that role because I didn't think it was a good idea for me to try to exhibit some of the behaviors. It wasn't a moral judgement, just a recognition what sorts of job roles I could comfortably maintain.

[Stahlmann]

so if such questions are asked here, what problems are presented on (for example) boogleheads?
for personal mental health reasons I don't visit them.

on the topic: this time I will decline to offer Marxist perspective to this issue .

__
maybe I'm chime in.
how about case presented in Micheal Moore's "Columbine", dialogue in front of big rocket.
is it possible to "rule" military company without any ethical doubts? interesting to ponder on it.

[Scott 2]

Early in my career, I held an idealized view of what a leader should be. Nobody could match up to it, and so of course, leaders gave me bad feelings.

Once I got my head straight and understood that it's just another guy trying to do their job, expectations were met. The uncomfortable feelings went away. Equalizing the power differential through FI helped there too, I am sure.

[Dream of Freedom]

I'd say trust your gut pal. Humans are hard wired to pick up on cues from others and the conscious mind just gets the cliff notes version.

[nomadscientist]

This is a forum of people who have made a conscious decision not to follow that path.

Gervais Principle is a website written by a marketing guy and is not warrantied as career advice; it's nonetheless clear most people in the business of managing bureaucracies aren't in it for the romance.

It's a job like any other and a part of making our society work at least until something radically changes the society. The most disappointing fact about it is that these C-level people are still employees and as much forced by their incentives and filters to act a certain way as those on the factory floor; even anti-capitalists can't stomach this preferring to see them as powerful but malicious rather than compromised because weak.

If you aren't willing to make your peace with that, what are your other options? Do any of them look better to you?

[benrickert]

For a refreshing example on how to deal with corporate bullshit and a task you do not like I highly encourage you all to listen to this episode from 42:55 to 46:15, in which Malcolm Gladwell gives an example from his job at the washington post. To have the guts to pull this of, you would probably need to show you’re really good at something else at that job or be close to FIRE

https://podcasts.apple.com/no/podcast/r ... 0411070041